Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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Ken
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Arabian Magic! Warriors of Fate! Cheers! Sam & Diane!)

Post by Ken »

Before he was a postal worker, Cliff worked for NASA, but apparently didn't know whether or not a "curl" was what the Canaveral boys used to call a comet with an east-west trajectory.

Apparently he learned to always come across like you know what you're talking about.
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
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Woody Boyd

Post by Jabroniville »

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WOODY BOYD
Played By:
Woody Harrelson
Role: The Dumb Guy
PL 2 (25), PL 3 (25) Saves
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 1 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE -1 AWARENESS -1 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Expertise (Farmer) 4 (+3)
Expertise (Bartender) 4 (+3)
Persuasion 4 (+6)
Vehicles 2 (+2)

Advantages:
None

Offense:
Unarmed +1 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +2 (DC 12), Parry +1 (DC 11), Toughness +2, Fortitude +2, Will +3

Complications:
Relationship (Kellie)- Woody falls in love with a rich girl later on, and they eventually get married.
Reputation (Clueless)- Woody does not understand sarcasm.

Total: Abilities: 14 / Skills: 14--7 / Advantages: 0 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 4 (25)

-Woody was a sudden replacement for the beloved "Coach", whose actor, Nicholas Collosanto, died between seasons of the show. Replacing him completely as the resident "dumb bartender" (since the show needed both a dumb guy and another guy to tend bar, since otherwise it's unrealistic to have Sammy do it ALL), he was nonetheless a beloved and iconic character by the time the series ended, one of the more successful avoidances of a CLASSIC "Jump the Shark" moment the show made (few shows were more adept at this). He also provided a Little Brother character for most of the cast to play off of, especially competitively with poor Sammy, who tried to one-up the younger kid at athletics. Oddly, the character was named BEFORE Woody Harrelson auditioned for the role. Harrelson himself has had a bit of an odd career, seemingly starting big with Natural Born Killers, but then he basically fell off the face of the Earth until a comeback in recent years.

-Woody's in pretty good shape, but his Mental Stats are notoriously low, at lower than even the levels of some children (keep in mind he was "Pen Pals" with Coach by actually trading pens back and forth). He's only got rudimentary skills and no Advantages, but is a generally likeable guy. He reappears years later on Frasier in a bit of a dull episode, revealing that he's still into Boston's city politics and still married ("Their son, is he..." "No, no- he's smart").
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Rebecca Howe

Post by Jabroniville »

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REBECCA HOWE
Played By:
Kirstie Alley
Role: 1980s Businesswoman, Basket Case
PL 4 (47)
STRENGTH
0 STAMINA 0 AGILITY 0
FIGHTING 0 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Deception 4 (+6)
Expertise (Business) 2 (+3)
Expertise (Manager) 2 (+3)
Insight 2 (+2)
Intimidation 2 (+4)
Perception 2 (+2)
Persuasion 4 (+6)

Advantages:
None

Offense:
Unarmed +0 (+0 Damage, DC 15)
Initiative +5

Defenses:
Dodge +2 (DC 12), Parry +5 (DC 15), Toughness +2, Fortitude +3, Will +3

Complications:
Motivation (Greed & Power)- Rebecca is a stereotypical 1980s Businesswoman, Power-Suit and all.
Motivation (Gold-Digging)- Rebecca wants to marry a wealthy man at all costs, and usually chases after Robin Colcord.

Total: Abilities: 6 / Skills: 18--9 / Advantages: 0 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 4 (47)

-Rebecca surprisingly has more episodes to her credit than Diane does, being the replacement of "resident female character foil for Sam". Opinions about her are mixed, and rarely 100% on either side. Few think the show was BETTER with Rebecca instead of Diane, for example, but fewer still think Rebecca SUCKED, and many actually enjoyed her more neurotic, greenback-chasing antics, and failed get-rich-quick schemes resulting in basket-case behavior. Though her existence led to Sam becoming more of a begging, pleading loser than he was supposed to be at the beginning of the show, that may've been the intellectual writers finally having him "get his"- the final fate of the smarmy jock womanizer. She ended up marrying a poor handyman after years of being a Gold Digger.

-Kirstie Alley had a solid non-Cheers career, and was especially big in the '80s and early '90s. However, weight-gain ruined any hawtness she once had (I never found her THAT hot, really), and yo-yo dieting really wasn't effective either. She's now more famous for being overweight than being talented (though really, she's over SIXTY now- nobody should be expecting a hottie. Not everyone is Susan Sarandon-hot at that age). She was the only recurring Cheers character who never returned on Frasier (it was stated in passing by Sam that she got divorced from her husband as soon as he struck it rich, and became an alcoholic at the bar- OUCH)- it's believed that her $cientology leanings (which hate on psychiatry) was the reason, though she's denied it and says it just never worked out. Frankly, given the cruel send-off her character had in passing, I'm liable to believe there was some issue. I mean, PAUL showed up on Frasier. PAUL!

-Rebecca's a competent businesswoman, but doesn't back it up with a whole lot. She's usually just cranky, vindictive, jealous and money-grubbing most of the time. She can't even run the bar particularly well.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Arabian Magic! Warriors of Fate! Cheers! Sam & Diane!)

Post by M4C8 »

It's funny how you say this show is so beloved and that it managed to successfully mix funny with moments of genuine sadness because one of the most beloved sitcoms here in the UK is 'Only Fools and Horses' which has been praised for the doing exact same thing. Weirdly the show also has a beloved older character who's actor died off screen and was replaced by another character who became a fan favourite (though in this case he was also an old man)
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Arabian Magic! Warriors of Fate! Cheers! Sam & Diane!)

Post by Shock »

Woody Harrelson's transition from Cheers to Natural Born Killers was really jarring. I don't think you could have a bigger gulf between characters and I feel like it was probably done on purpose. You have to admit that he successfully avoided getting typecast.

John Ratzenberger has had a really solid career from Cliffy to the seeming job for life from Pixar. And it's funny that he was one of the bigger
"did you know" trivia items from the pre-internet Star Wars fandom because of his 10 second role in Empire Strikes Back. He also had a long running show on the Travel channel.
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Frasier

Post by Jabroniville »

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Frasier: "You have a wonderful career!"
Nanny G: "But nothing ever changes! Do you have any idea what it's like playing the same character for TWENTY YEARS?"


FRASIER:

-Frasier has a fascinating history. See, realizing that Cheers was winding down, Kelsey Grammer talked to the writers about creating a project for him once it ended. The writers, who were also working on Wings, came up with a little pitch about a crippled media mogul who rules his empire from his bed, while his sassy Latina maid (a Rosie Perez type) lectures him and humanizes him a bit. Kelsey liked it, but the network didn't, and an exec correctly advised them that they'd be STUPID to let the hype and ratings from the Cheers finale (which were ENORMOUS) go with some other project, leading them into a spin-off. I mean, the execs wanted one ANYWAYS, and it helped that the creators all realized that Frasier was easily the most well-rounded character of the cast by this point, and had the biggest "up side" (even though Norm was the most beloved character). Here's a description on that blog by one of the creators discussing the origins.

They got to forming a cast of characters: Frasier was supposed to work at KACL, a talk-radio station, and so they started making it a Work Com... but then found out they were copying a lot of WKRP in Cincinatti by accident, and scaled it back to make it more about family. One of the writers had recently begun taking care of his ailing father, and so they attached a plot many adults could now relate to- caring for an elderly parent. And so Frasier's crippled father Martin came to live with him- the "Latina Maid" became his caretaker & a housekeeper (writers throw NOTHING away- all of their failed ideas turn up somewhere). A saucy, snide Producer at KACL was created to keep Frasier in line at work. This was it... until one girl working on the show walked in with a picture of an unknown named David Hyde Pierce and said "Hey- doesn't this guy look like Kelsey ten years ago? Frasier should have a brother!" (and it is UNCANNY- I always thought this was odd until I actually watched some old Cheers clips of a skinnier Frasier and realized how close the resemblance really is).

The casting was a case of serendipity- Networks are NOTORIOUSLY stringent about who gets casted, and it's a HUGE process- people audition, producers make their picks... then the network sticks their noses in and randomly tosses out people (one great Ken Levine blog post starts with "I'm not sure guys are going to want to fuck her" from an exec), and introduces their own personal favourite actors that they've always wanted to link to something (Jennifer Aniston was one of those people; Gil Grissom on CSI was also cast because a network head wanted a project for him). So it was amazing that during talks with the network, the execs basically said "We LOVE John Mahoney and David Hyde Pierce- if you can get them, they're both pre-approved". This is an absolute dream for a producer, as it cuts the number of steps in this process dramatically, and you can skip test audiences (where stuff like "I can't believe she wore those shoes" can cost an actress her job- again, true story from Ken Levine). The same execs had an interest in Jane Leeves (see what I mean about "personal favourites"?), and asked if the Latina Maid could be made British instead. Also pre-approved, to the joy of the producers. And finally, a peppy actress named Lisa Kudrow was cast as Roz Doyle, Frasier's producer.

Yes, really. But unfortunately for the young actress, while she was funnier and peppier than the #2 choice (Peri Gilpin), she was also a little too goofy. A little too SOFT. She made some things funnier even when they WEREN'T supposed to be jokes, but she was also a bit timid, forcing Kelsey to scale back during test screenings- and when a natural ham like THAT has to scale back to avoid overpowering somebody on set, something's wrong. The director, James Burrows, recognized this and promptly went to the producers (which is why he's so vastly respected, and why his opinion counts for so much). And so they made the tough decision to fire Lisa, and hire Peri, who "while not as funny as Lisa, had more of that attitude where she wasn't going to take any of Frasier's shit". Add one talented little doggie actor as Martin's pal Eddie, and we were SET.

Frasier: "I HATE lawyers!"
Niles: "Me too, but they make great patients- excellent health insurance, and they never get better!"


What struck everyone is how rapidly the show just WORKED. Test audiences loved it. When the NBC execs came in to watch, Martin & Frasier had a classic argument in the Pilot about Frasier's non-matching furniture ("It's a new style called ECLECTIC- the items are of such high quality that it doesn't matter if the colors match"), and when Martin snarkily parroted back at Frasier about his beloved trashy lounge-chair, "I know- It's ECLECTIC!", the producers actually looked up and saw the soles of the Head Boss's feet as he was reclined back in his chair with laughter. The writers actually admit that the first two seasons of the series were the BEST, with the perfect mix of humor, pathos and character interplay. The show was an immediate hit, and only got better ratings for a while (even getting the coveted "Seinfeld Spot" on Thursday Nights), but a descent in quality hampered it later on. See, while the show was ALWAYS obsessed with "Comedy of Errors" plots based off of wacky misunderstandings or snowballing lies (a la Three's Company/Fawlty Towers), they got a bit out of hand, and things started to suffer. The completion of the Niles/Daphne arc also kind of saw the end of their story arc, which is probably why so many TV shows make you wait for 10 years to resolve romance.

Even so, the show lasted for a crazy long ELEVEN SEASONS. It scored more Emmys than any other show in history while it was doing so, dominating things for years. Some people boo the show for being pretentious and up its own ass, but I find that false: the show isn't pretentious- it's about pretentious PEOPLE. There are constant gags with how fancy-ass Frasier & Niles are, going on about their fussiness and obsession with minor details- "But Niles! What's better- a perfect meal, or a perfect meal with one TINY FLAW that we can pick at all evening?". Or when Frasier sulks to Niles that the last book on British Royalty "was a bit light on the Plantagenets for my liking", and Niles' little sympathic, sincere "Aw.", and the audience immediately gets in and chuckles at the point, despite probably not knowing who the Plantagenets were. Their cluelessness about blue collar activities or sports ("Dad drove me here with a look on his face that I haven't seen since he drove us home from our first and ONLY Little League game", "Unfortunately, the best seats I could get were right in the middle of the Football field" "Aw.") was also played for laughs- blue collar folks could enjoy the show just as much.

Funny Moments:
-The funny moments just keep on coming- the one where the boys open a restaurant is classic, complete with giant slapstick gags (people mock the show's elitism, yet they use more physical humor than any of their contemporaries)- Niles wussily-trying to kill some eels for a meal is funny enough (he's just wacking the knife uselessly on top of the water because he's afraid to touch one), but when Daphne just loses her patience, snatches one by the tail, and swings it in a HUGE arc into the table is just pants-pissingly hilarious. Bulldog's antics are great ("This stinks! This is total B.S.!"). The escalating prank war that ends when Frasier admits Bulldog is better at it, so they just team up on everyone else ("Hello, 911? I'd like to report... THE GREATEST PRANK EVER!!"). The snob-ass parents competing through their sons in a secret SPELLING BEE in a back-alley, complete with warm-ups and taunting ("Spell his ASS OFF!"). Frasier mimicking some amazing lovemaking to show up his ex-wife in the next room, and everyone walks in on him while he's jumping up and down on the bed, screaming "OH YEAH, BABY! YEAH!!!"

Other great bits: Pretty much any interaction between Frasier & Lilith is perfect, too. Frasier's reaction on Diane's Self-Insert FanFic. Niles taking over Frasier's radio show when he's sick ("While my brother is a Freudian, I am a Jungian- so there'll be no blaming MOTHER today!"). Frasier being sued after roughhousing a rude guy at the coffee shop, and his reaction when Niles oversells the slightest touch ("countersuit!"- "Don't worry, Niles- I'll get you the best medical care THIS MAN'S MONEY can buy!". Frasier & his rival Cam Winston sniping back and forth was great ("But you drive a HUMMER! If MINE is a shrine to male over-compensation, then what's YOURS!" "... BIGGER!"). Frasier & Niles acting like hooligans in a Mechanics Class because they suck at it and have decided to mimic behavior of Class Bullies ("now I understand why my bully shoved me into a locker- he wasn't mad at me; he was mad at Pythagoras. Which was ironic, because a simple cubic-square equation would have shown that I couldn't fit"). The time Roz & Martin joked with Niles that they got married, and Niles, getting the joke, just mouthed off "well I'll be a son of a bitch" (Roz & Martin's reactions are PRICELESS).

Or the time the gang was supposed to share the naughtiest thing they've ever done. Roz insists it's too much for them to hear, but Martin insists. "Come on, Roz- I'm a cop. I've heard everything. Just whisper it to me and I'll let you know if the others can take it". And so she whispers her secret into his ear and Martin goes from curious delight to a completely blank look, and then a look of UTTER DISGUST comes over his face as he immediately springs to his feet, bolts across the room as fast as his cane will let him, and takes one final horrified look at Roz (who is smiling with glee, actually PROUD of herself) before he leaves. Never utters a word the entire time and it's one of the show's funniest moments.

The Early Seasons:
-The early episodes are interesting to watch, in just HOW good they are right out of the gate- Martin is blue-collar but not a fool, Roz is easily-agitated and snarky, Niles is fussy (he's immediatley seen wiping down chairs before sitting), and Frasier is super-moral yet always angry. They nailed every character. The only weird one is Daphne, who is actually proven quite right with her "I'm a bit PSYCHIC" declarations. But even she retains her personality later on. Most sitcoms take at LEAST two seasons to hash all this out, naturally.

It's also interesting to watch the characters learn about each other- Niles doesn't meet Daphne until the SECOND episode, or Roz till the third. Roz & Marty meet for the first time in the fourth. Contrast most sitcoms, which throw everyone into a room immediately and have them insult each other for hours, like they've always known each other. Curiously, Frasier is a big-name in Seattle almost right away, with people recognizing him only a couple episodes in. Despite that, his workplace is rarely shown- there's a bit at the beginning of most episodes and that's all (even Bulldog is only there for about a half-minute in one episode). I think that's why they rapidly put Roz into the coffeehouse with Frasier- to integrate her with the rest of the cast. SUCH good writing. This show is on SUCH a huge roll in these early seasons. When I first did these, Canada's Comedy Network was into Seasons Three & Four in these repeats, I've noticed Daphne & Roz's hotness skyrocket compared to their dumpier early-season looks- Roz took a bit longer thanks to some awful early '90s make-up (the more naturalistic look works MUCH better).

An odd early running gag is Niles never remembering Roz when he meets her- a helpful introduction to them not getting a long, but definitely unusual. I don't remember that at all. It's actually much more clear that David Hyde Pierce's hairline was receding early on- I wonder if they hid that later on in order to keep up his "fussy", younger appearance, or I just never noticed it in later episodes. And YE GODS, the FASHION!! Frasier's long-ass hair combined with bald top is awful, Daphne's big overalls & mom jeans are hyper-dated, and Roz, as I've noted before, has a bizarre fashion sense and giant '80s hair (just a bit too frizzy), and the wrong kind of make-up. Only Martin & Niles really look largely the same as the series goes on. Least we're outta the "Kate Costas" episodes. A Dragon Lady boss is always a good character (especially with a wannabe macho-type like Frasier), but the actress was pretty bad (with a noticeable lisp), and we were clearly supposed to think she was beautiful when she wasn't (her skin looked over-tanned and leathery, plus she had awful '80s hair). Thank God they stopped filming her walking, too- Dragon Ladies need Power Heels, and she obviously couldn't walk in them- she was stomping around the set like a Velociraptor in one episode.


---

An Early "Whacky Stack" Episode:
-And haha, oh man, the episode where Daphne's ex-fiancee comes back for a chat. SO GOOD. I'd forgotten all of the tricks that went on with this one. The best part is that it's a Wacky Stack "Everyone Lies & Covers Up Those Lies" situations, but the show is smart enough to make it go completely off-course thanks to the actual interplay between the characters. Daphne wants to let her amorous ex Clive (spoken with a English Accent so horrible, it rivals Dick Van Dyke's- he even says "Luverly" at one point) down easily, so pretends to be married to Niles (who, naturally, is ONLY too happy to play the role). Since they're all at Frasier's, Frasier has to be roped into it as the lonely single living there, having been kicked out of his house by his "wife", Maris (Martin: "You couldn't stand her either, huh?" *Both crack up laughing, leaving Niles seething*).

Martin arrives and is quickly caught up to speed, but the brothers try to kick him out, figuring that he's not quick enough to keep up with their lies. Martin, a former undercover cop, is naturally offended by this, and decides to start f*cking with them, openly wiping out their carefully-laid out plans- he tells the ex that he's a retired ASTRONAUT, and when Roz arrives to return something of Frasier's, he announces that she's MARIS, sending everything into disarray! Niles & Frasier's quiet fury is something to behold, especially once Roz becomes noticeably attracted to Clive, and DAPHNE starts reconsidering rejecting him, too! They start sniping at each other like a couple of teenage girls (Daph starts implying "Maris" is a drunk, then Roz lets it drop that Daphne is PREGNANT- Maris/Roz is then announced as barren). Clive finally has had enough and tries to bail- "But Clive! We're not the awful people you think we are!" "Yes! In fact, we've been LYING to you all evening!"

---

In my opinion, the best episode, and scene, is in the one where Frasier hosts a Costume Party where the come as their own personal heroes that doubles as a Q&A Game. Frasier is naturally Sigmund Freud, Martin is Joe DiMaggio, Daphne is Elton John, and Roz is Wonder Woman (when Frasier is annoyed, she admits she didn't understand the rules... until she admits later that she DID, and just lied because everyone started laughing at her- she said WW is her hero because she's "beautiful, strong, and never needed a MAN to be happy!"). Niles comes in dressed as MARTIN, an obvious kiss-ass gesture that immediately enrages Frasier, who begins sniping at Niles all night long. Some of these moments are HILARIOUS, like when Niles deliberately starts screwing with Frasier- "Niles!" "Wait, who's NILES?" "Sorry- DAD!" "Why's he calling me dad? I'm not FREUD'S DAD!"

But then things take this suddenly dark turn when Frasier asks everyone what their "Greatest Disappointment" was, and an increasingly-tipsy Niles starts letting slip a few things. Like when he talks about how his boys never followed in his footsteps, or ever tried to share an interest in anything HE liked. "So if you have to ask me, my TWO biggest disappointments are--" and Martin just snaps at him "You stop RIGHT THERE. You will NOT put these words in my mouth" with this utterly-furious, disgusted calm. This hits so hard emotionally because Martin probably knows that Niles actually DOES feel that Martin believes these things, and it turns into a giant mess. I LOVE scenes like this- people letting out their darkest thoughts and hurting the ones they love most in this horribly-honest way.

Then there's the time Frasier ended up dating a woman who looked just like his late mother. HAW-HAW- dude is a Freudian and he ends up confirming the oldest stereotype attached to Freud! Funny, right? Niles gets some of the best lines in the show, taking jabs at a clueless Frasier while only his family gets it ("You really hit the MOTHER lode!"). But then you get the scene when Martin takes a look at the girl for the first time- in one instant, you see the shock, heartbreak and sadness on his face- John Mahoney managed to convey the entire thing in that single moment, and you REALLY feel it with him. He got over it, but STILL.

The show does "For the Feelz" moments a lot, and it never comes off as cloying. Like when the three Crane boys mope over their mutually-bleak dating results while looking over the Seattle skyline ("We're DESPERATE!" Niles jokes- but not really. It's so fantastic when people on TV say something that's supposed to be a joke/lie, but actually MEAN IT- you can't really do that in writing or in comics- you need real actors). Roz breaks down publically because her longest-term relationship just ended ("He says there weren't any FIREWORKS anymore- what am I supposed to SAY to that?", "I SWORE to myself I would never fall in love again!"), and Frasier has to bring her back from the brink, convincing her that it's never a bad idea to let someone in to your heart. Daphne demanding to marry Niles NOW because he refused to let Daph's father leave her mother ("I can't go one more minute not being your wife").
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Cheers! Sam & Diane! NORM! Woody! Frasier!)

Post by M4C8 »

Yeah, Frasier was a great show. Apparently there's going to be a renewal of it with Kelsey Grammer returning as Frasier but as of now none of other of the actors from the original have been confirmed.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'
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Re: Cliff

Post by Grenzer »

Jabroniville wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:17 am
Grenzer wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:24 am
Jabroniville wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:59 pm This is particularly common in online communities, where the slightest error is responded to with a sharp correction, usually punctuated by "ACTUALLY--").
And now you know why I stopped posting on this thread regularly. I was looking at some of my posts and could practically feel a mustache sprouting on my upper lip and a postal worker's uniform wrap over me... And I so very much wanted to weigh in on Shelley Long's departure from the show too. ;)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! But I liked reading your essay-length posts full of additional info! It's okay to DISAGREE- I just draw the line at the "Um, ACTUALLY" stuff. Now I demand your take on Shelley Long leaving :).
Well since you asked...

First off, for those who don't know, Shelley Long has long been rumored to be widely regarded in Hollywood as a real pill who manages to annoy just about everyone she works with. Her movie career may have been killed by vengeful studio executives who used the failure of her starring vehicle Troop Beverly Hills to block her from future acting jobs. This may not be true because she did go on to star as Carol Brady in the relatively well-received Brady Bunch films, but that was six years later. Regardless, she did seem to get judged harder for failures that other movie stars would have been given a pass on.

Regarding Cheers, Long had signed a five-year contract for the series. When the contract came up for renewal in 1987, she famously turned it down despite another rumor that NBC was willing to give her a massive pay raise that was almost unprecedented for the time. What is a little more concrete is that while she was respected in the Cheer's Writers Room for her acting skills, Long had major issues with most of her fellow cast members and production crew.

Long's hair in the photos posted on this thread? She was wearing wigs to protect her real hair from the hot studio lights, which was much derided by others. She wanted to have her makeup redone anytime Diane changed clothes between scenes, which was often. And she chided others for partying after shooting hours, which was even more often*. Jab mentioned the friction with Kelsey Grammer, but Rhea Perlman absolutely despised Long and let her know it. And apparently Long managed to burn bridges with George Wendt, who had previously been her friend at Chicago's famous comedy troupe The Second City. Ted Danson tolerated her, but her closest friend was Nicholas Colasanto, who as we know died during season three. Needless to say, it was not a happy working environment and Shelley was apparently the butt of many pranks which in today's environment could be seen as workplace harassment.

Anyway, when put in that light you can see why Long may have just wanted to run away from it all regardless of the money or awards. If you strip away the glamor of Prime Time TV, is the concept of an unhappy employee leaving a job she had grown to hate all that strange? And keep in mind she was 38. If she had any shot of making it in movies, her window for doing so was getting very short. Even failure may have been more palatable than being around people who made it clear they hated her. If they blamed her for almost killing the show by leaving... well they blamed her for anything that went wrong at that point so what difference did it make to her? As it is, the show lasted another six seasons so they were wrong on that point.


* The cast of Cheers may very well have been drinking more off camera than on it, on a show centered around a bar. There were of course other... chemicals involved as well.
Last edited by Grenzer on Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Cheers! Sam & Diane! NORM! Woody! Frasier!)

Post by Shock »

I don't get the cast trying to blame Long for leaving. I don't get mad at a coworker for getting another job even if it makes my job harder in the meantime. It's not like she was purposely sabotaging the show. She just didn't like her job and wanted to change. If they have a problem with that, it's them being selfish, not her.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Cheers! Sam & Diane! NORM! Woody! Frasier!)

Post by Ares »

Shock wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:58 am I don't get the cast trying to blame Long for leaving. I don't get mad at a coworker for getting another job even if it makes my job harder in the meantime. It's not like she was purposely sabotaging the show. She just didn't like her job and wanted to change. If they have a problem with that, it's them being selfish, not her.
I think part of it is that television shows are a very different animal from most other jobs. Shows like Cheers, Seinfeld, Friends and the like rely on a core cast and how well said cast plays off each other. It isn't like most regular jobs where if a co-worker leaves a replacement can be hired and (assuming general competence and teamwork) will get things back to regular working conditions after a short adjustment period. With these shows, an actor leaving can potentially get a show cancelled and cause everyone to lose their jobs, especially if said actor is considered vital to the series. It'd be like if in an office job, one person leaves and now there's a 50/50 chance everyone else will get fired because of it.

So while I agree that everyone should be able to pursue the career that makes them happiest, I can also understand while actors might have some less than charitable feelings if a co-workers actions endangers their own career and livelihood.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Jabroniville
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Re: Cliff

Post by Jabroniville »

Grenzer wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:45 am
Jabroniville wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:17 am
Grenzer wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:24 am

And now you know why I stopped posting on this thread regularly. I was looking at some of my posts and could practically feel a mustache sprouting on my upper lip and a postal worker's uniform wrap over me... And I so very much wanted to weigh in on Shelley Long's departure from the show too. ;)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! But I liked reading your essay-length posts full of additional info! It's okay to DISAGREE- I just draw the line at the "Um, ACTUALLY" stuff. Now I demand your take on Shelley Long leaving :).
Well since you asked...

First off, for those who don't know, Shelley Long has long been rumored to be widely regarded in Hollywood as a real pill who manages to annoy just about everyone she works with. Her movie career may have been killed by vengeful studio executives who used the failure of her starring vehicle Troop Beverly Hills to block her from future acting jobs. This may not be true because she did go on to star as Carol Brady in the relatively well-received Brady Bunch films, but that was six years later. Regardless, she did seem to get judged harder for failures that other movie stars would have been given a pass on.

Regarding Cheers, Long had signed a five-year contract for the series. When the contract came up for renewal in 1987, she famously turned it down despite another rumor that NBC was willing to give her a massive pay raise that was almost unprecedented for the time. What is a little more concrete is that while she was respected in the Cheer's Writers Room for her acting skills, Long had major issues with most of her fellow cast members and production crew.
Hooray! More info! This is stuff I haven't heard, though am sorta unsurprised by. A lot of TV sets are total messes behind the scenes, though at a high enough level most actors can maintain professionalism, or at least the veneer of it. Look at how long Sex and the City was successful, in spite of the utter hatred between Sarah Jessica Parker & Kim Cattrall. Or, um, Frasier, where the cast absolutely ADORED each other... but nobody liked Kelsey (to the point where the women have all the other cast as Godparents to their children, with the exception of only him).

Where'd you hear this? I've mostly been stuck with notes from the writer/producers Ken Levine (who liked Long's ability and has been relatively sparing with dirty secrets on the set- as a producer it'd be unwise to share any- save for how Carla's husband's actor got fired- as a side character played by a non-notable performer, he was "safe").
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
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The Frasier Cast

Post by Jabroniville »

The Cast of Characters:
Frasier Crane: The egghead from Cheers, now even MORE snobbish!
Niles Crane: Frasier's even-more-snobby brother. A wussy fancy-ass.
Martin Crane: The boys' blue-collar, retired cop father. Constantly fights with both of them, especially Frasier, with whom he lives.
Daphne Moon: Martin's healthcare worker, and idolized by Niles.
Roz Doyle: Frasier's Producer, and generally a sounding board for Frasier's own ranting.
Eddie: Frasier's Jack Russel Terrier. Likes to stare.

Maris Crane: Niles' wife, a controlling, shrewish woman with a litany of personal and physical flaws.
Dr. Lilith Sternin: Frasier's ex-wife, the most deadpan woman in the entire universe.
Bebe Glazer: Frasier's evil, lying agent. CLEARLY the producers taking shots at the agents they've had to deal with over the years.

The KACL Crew:
Bulldog Briscoe: The most boorish ass in the world, and the resident Sports Guy. An antagonist to Frasier, naturally.
Kenny Daly: The last "Boss" character at the station, and more of a wussy pushover than the others.
Gil Chesterton: Even more fancy than the Cranes- he's the food critic.

The more minor recurring characters (the ones I'm not building):
Duke: Martin's mostly-unseen buddy, usually on the other line on the phone.
Sherry: Martin's girlfriend for what felt like YEARS (but really only a handful of episodes)- her loud, obnoxious, clueless nature often agitated both Frasier and Niles. She & Martin split up when she revealed that she had no intentions of settling down and getting married.
Ronee: Frasier's old babysitter, who later ends up marrying Martin at the end of the series. Played by Wendy Malick, one of those actresses that writers just LOVE for her distinctive voice.
Frederick Sternin-Crane: Frasier & Lilith's son- kind of shifts over time, as he's alternatively into "kid stuff" and then "fancy stuff" as a budding intellectual. Often doesn't come up in the stories nearly as much as he should, but he DOES live across the country.
Cam Winston: Frasier's rival in his building for a while. They have the same personality type, so naturally aggravate each other.
Gertrude & Simon Moon: Daphne's mother and brother. Both are slovenly, annoying types- Simon's a drunken flirt and thief, while Gertrude is a whining, lying, conniving shrew of a woman. Most fans take a negative view of both of them, as they come to dominate some of the later seasons.
Lana & Kirby: Frasier briefly tutors Kirby, who is the son of his High School Crush (Jean Smart in a pretty MILFy role). Frasier & Lana briefly date, but he steps back to let her reunite with her ex-husband.
Noel: Generic office guy at KACL. A stereotypical Trekkie & TV Nerd- ie. one who is overconfident and obvious in his abilities to hit on a specific girl (Roz, in this case). Has anyone EVER met a nerd like this in real life? Every hardcore dork I know was WAY too shy to ever act like this around a woman. At BEST they were clumsily-obvious in their crushes, not needling and flirtacious.

Seattle Itself: Now here's ANOTHER interesting tidbit about the show's creation- they wanted to move Frasier way out West, to prevent NBC from asking for countless Cheers cameos (the writers were concerned, and wanted the show to stand on its own at first). They went with Denver at first, but some Colorado anti-gay legislation was recently passed, and so they up and went elsewhere, and found Seattle. It was a neat, rare decision (there's not a lot of Washington State on TV), but oddly didn't quite fit the "world" in which Frasier lived. I mean, he and his brother lived in a world of symphonies, plays, and Old Money families with hoity-toity accents. Seattle really... isn't that. It's a Logging Town that turned into the beginnings of various Youth Movements- it's more about protest, technology (a big part of the computer revolution came here), rock music (Grunge was born there, as was Jimi Hendrix), Starbucks, Art Students, young people in general, quicky neighborhoods, and more. The world of Frasier seems VERY distinctly Boston/Rhode Island/Maine, but instead got stuck in an odd area. From what I understand from Seattleites debating about this online, MARTIN actually represents the "real Seattle" more than any other character. I mean, there is old money there (Maris's family fortune is said to be from logging) but it's late 1800s "old money", not like... "Came over on the Mayflower and founded America" old money.

Despite that, the show ended up INFLUENCING the real Seattle- people still ask realtors for "The Frasier View" (he would have to live in a HUGE high-rise on Seattle's affluent Queen Anne district to get that view of the Space Needle), and the show seems to have convinced the rich people to turn Seattle into something more like on the show.

The actors from the series have gone on to different projects a bit- David Hyde Pierce largely seems to have disappeared into theatrical work after coming out of the closet in 2007, and John Mahoney seemed largely-retired (the only other thing I've seen him in is Say Anything, which is an '80s movie) until his death a few years back. Peri Gilpin showed up on Law & Order A LOT as different characters, and gets a lot of Voice Acting work owing to her husky bedroom voice (she's Volcana in Superman/Justice League, and has played various King of the Hill one-shot characters). Jane Leeves ended up getting a recurring gig on Hot in Cleveland. Grammer, the biggest star, had a few failed projects and one big movie (unfortunately, that movie was X-Men 3), but is still very respected as an actor. And they're apparently restarting the show! So we'll see what becomes of THAT.
Jabroniville
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Frasier Crane

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image

[Frasier is trying to get Bebe to quit smoking, so that she can marry her anti-smoking billionaire boyfriend, but she locks herself on his patio with some smokes]

Frasier: For God's sake... I don't care anymore. You know, I can't help you, nobody can. You want to ruin it for both of us? Here...
[tosses her a lighter]
Frasier: ...go ahead, knock yourself out.
[Bebe begins to light cigarette]
Frasier: I only wish I could be there when it happens.
Bebe: When what happens?
Frasier: When you see that newspaper headline: "Big Willy Boone, Millionaire, Dead." Oh, how I wish I could be there when you watch the funeral on the news. Watch the casket being slipped into the ground. Only, you won't be watching that. No, no, you'll be watching... the widow Boone. Tiffany, perhaps. Oh no, better yet, "Kelli" - with an "I"!
Bebe: [tortured] STOP IT!
Frasier: You'll picture her wearing YOUR jewels, sailing in YOUR yachts, sleeping with *your* gigolos - but, oh, you won't be sad, no, no, no!
[chuckles]
Frasier: Because you'll have your cigarette.
[Bebe stares at her cigarette with fear]
Frasier: Yeah! Clutched in your nicotine-stained teeth, smoke whirling about your once-pretty, now creased, leathery, smoke-ravaged...
Bebe: [anguished] ENOUGH!
[Bebe hands the cigarettes to a triumphant Frasier]
Bebe: God! You are one HELL of a therapist!


DR. FRASIER CRANE
Played By:
Kelsey Grammer
Role: Egghead, Pretentious Turd, Elitist Snob
PL 1 (57), PL 4 (57) Saves
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 1 AGILITY 0
FIGHTING 1 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Deception 5 (+8)
Expertise (Art) 6 (+10)
Expertise (Psychiatrist) 5 (+9)
Expertise (High Culture) 6 (+10)
Expertise (History) 5 (+9)
Expertise (Theology & Philosophy) 6 (+10)
Expertise (Radio Host) 6 (+9)
Expertise (Singing) 4 (+7)
Insight 2 (+5)
Persuasion 5 (+8)

Advantages:
Benefit 1 (Wealth), Daze (Deception), Languages (A Few)

Offense:
Unarmed +1 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Initiative +0

Defenses:
Dodge +0 (DC 10), Parry +1 (DC 11), Toughness +1, Fortitude +2, Will +5

Complications:
Motivation (Helping People)- Above all else, even though he craves money and respect, Frasier IS in fact a doctor at heart, and longs to help people along. Even with the quick-service version of pyschiatry on his Advice Show.
Motivation (Fame & Credibility)- Frasier is fame-hungry, and wishes to both be more famous and more respected by everyone. He often chases chances for a TV position, and wants his show in peak ratings periods.
Motivation (Snobbery & Standing)- Frasier & Niles are both obsessed with their social status, and are constantly looking to impress their social peers. Because of this, both men are prone to lying and exaggerating, and will do ANYTHING to save face.
Motivation (The Finer Things)- Whether it's watching foreign Throat-Singers, going to the opera, or drinking wine, Frasier & Niles MUST have the very best, and the very trendiest. The more exclusive, the better. Anything "common" will horrify them ("I can't believe we're drinking this... oh my GOD... it's just labeled 'WINE'!"). Niles once slapped Frasier for suggesting they go to a place where they don't even NEED a reservation.
---
Relationship (Niles- Brother)- Frasier & Niles are as close in personality as can be, yet are intense rivals, as both constantly seek to one-up the other. Upon the discovery of something one has, the other will immediately move to better it. This extends to nearly every aspect of their lives, but especially the "Finer Things" Complication above, such as position in their Wine Club. Frasier is a snob, but still finds himself less of one that his fancy-ass, wilting brother.
Relationship (Martin- Father)- The Cranes' blue-collar dad has little patience for most of their antics and obsessions, and thinks both are too pretentious for their own good. Their relationships have been distant for years, and frought with arguments, especially once the boys' mother died. Frasier & Martin in particular have a rough go of things, living together in Martin's senior years.
Relationship (Roz Doyle)- Frasier's co-worker and Producer is one of his closest (and most regular) confidantes, but their different philosophies (he's a self-righteous snob; she's more rough-edged and vulgar) often cause friction.
Enemy (Martin's Chair)- The hideous chair is the bane of Frasier's existence.
Relationship (Eddie)- The Jack Russel Terrier will NOT stop staring at Frasier, often for minutes on end. He has never lost a staring contest.
---
Relationship (Frederick- Son)- Frasier misses his son terribly, and feels like he's missing out on the boy's life. Often concerned for the boy's well-being, Frasier & Lilith were nonetheless happy to discover that he was lying to and manipulating them ("He's a normal child! We're good parents!" *high five*).
Relationship (Dr. Lilith Sternin- Ex-Wife)- Lilith was a controlling, emotionless wife while they were together, and still makes her lack of respect for Frasier's professional credentials well-known. Even so, it can be complicated, as she can be seductive in her icy way.
Relationship (Various Women)- Frasier has had a great deal of relationships over the course of the show, generally not lasting long (a single episode).
Responsibility (Clueless About Sports & "Common" Things)- Frasier is unathletic to the point of hilarity, and has seemingly forgotten everything about sports he could have learned at Cheers.
Accident (Overhearing the Wrong Thing or Being Overhead Incorrectly)- This is common to all Frasier characters, and generally resolves itself in some sort of climax.
Disabled (Health Problems)- Frasier is prone to sea-sickness and back spasms. He also has diverculitis, and was impotent for a summer while in his twenties.
Allergy (Cats, Certain Kinds of Make-Up)

Total: Abilities: 26 / Skills: 50--25 / Advantages: 3 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 3 (57)

Frasier Gets The Spinoff:
-Shuffling major supporting character Frasier into his own show was chancy, but they actually made it WORK, giving him a great new supporting cast and basing many of the jokes around his desire for fame, legitimacy and credibility, as well as his constant battles against his own family members and search for a steady girlfriend. Frasier was brilliant in many ways, but lacked common sense as any good sitcom character should, and made for a great and unusual centrepiece. He's famously stuck-up and obsessed with the finer things (and comically out-of-touch with the common man, even compared to his Cheers character), leading to brush-ups against both Roz and his father.

-Grammer is FANTASTIC in this role- he gets a lot of energy from an unusual acting practice involving almost zero rehearsal time. This gives guest-stars heart attacks, but Grammer can ham it up like no actor I've ever seen- how many people could properly depict the blustering, screaming volume of a Frasier Crane other than this guy? His freak-outs, temper tantrums and angry reactions are legendary, yet he can STILL play it down and come across as a thoughtful patrician. WATCH THIS SCENE and be AMAZED- Grammer's silent at first, but still taken aback. And when he goes on the final rant, TEARING into the woman who destroyed his heart and his self-image forever, you've got a monologue anyone would be proud of. One of the show's best moments. And you can tell Grammer's a good actor because the real man is a good bit different- he had a HORRIBLE home life (various close family members were murdered), and was a drug & alcohol addict for a number of years (missing time on Frasier as a result, and he was apparently a MESS on Cheers much of the time as well).

Frasier's Foibles:
-A big thing with Frasier is that while he's generally good with people, is a good doctor, and genuinely cares for the mental health of others (various episodes have made it very clear that he is excellent at helping people with real problems, like comforting a grieving widow, bringing a family together when the daughter ends up knocked up by an incompetent waiter, or helping a chauffer with his personal problems instead of reveling in "Frasier Crane Day" at the Space Needle)... he's also an idiot. That is, he comes off as a stuffy twit a lot of the time, gets way too emotional (flying into a rage at the slightest provocation), and is often easily goaded into lying to cover his ass because he doesn't ever want to lose face in public. Which, naturally, causes him to humiliation himself in public all the time. Never mind his relationships with those around him- he's both nearly-identical to his brother but a huge rival of his (they disagree on many, MANY things, just as they both adore wine and love to pick at flaws), he finds Daphne annoying and boorish, he finds Roz too sarcastic, and he & Martin are constantly at war- they disagree on EVERYTHING and are polar opposites. Their relationship is one of many "hearts" of the show.

-Frasier's relationships are always disastrous. He had an ex-wife from his younger years, then got left at the altar by Diane, ruining his self-image and leaving him resentful for a decade. Then he married Lilith, which ended in heartbreak when she cheated on him. He still finds himself deeply attracted to her, but resents her as well. Then his relationships on his own show... he had a "Slap Slap Kiss" thing with Kate Costas, his station manager, but she moved away and they realized they wouldn't have had a future anyhow. COUNTLESS one-off women of the week were chased off by his various foibles (a pair of lovely ladies for himself & Niles were turned off when they overheard him shout "Don't even think of them by their names- just think of them as two warm bodies who want to DO us!"; another woman was angered when Frasier believed the lies her rebellious daughter told him). He once chased after a "perfect match" for himself, but ended up falling for her more boorish, loud friend (I mean, she was played by Jean Smart- I get it). He was with the evil Julia Wilcox in the later seasons, too. He is ultimately given a measure of romance with the "hot mess" character played by Laura Linney in the final season, but she moves away at the beginning of the Series Finale. However, in a clever bit, they have Frasier set to move to a wonderful new TV gig in a major market... but after telling his recent story to the person next to him on an airplane, the flight attendant comes over the speaker and announces their arrival... in the town where Laura's character moved to. Frasier ignored his TV job to go chase her! And that's where the series leaves off.

Frasier's Capabilities:
-Frasier is very smart and very skilled, but his Complications often overwhelm him, leading to him being trapped in a lie, or going outside of his comfort zone (like when he and Niles opened their own restaurant, despite never having run one before). He can lie with the best of them (in a show that nearly trumped Three's Company in terms of convoluted he-heard-she-heard comedy of errors plots, he NEEDS to), but often gets caught by other bluffs, and makes famously poor decisions nearly all the time. His Presence is pretty decent (he IS a radio celebrity, and is able to win a lot of people over until something REALLY comes to a head), but not as high as his smarm would lead you to believe- he cracks under pressure, and is known to come across as a know-it-all blowhard.

-He's still capable of dating some VERY attractive women, however (his bedmates have included Peri Gilpin's Roz, plus Bebe Neuwirth, Jennifer Tilly, Laura Linney, Amy Brenneman & Lisa Edelstein). He's also VERY well off, but perhaps a bit TOO much given that he's a radio personality (it's in a good radio market, but his apartment is absolutely enormous. It's still not as bad as the famously-silly situation on Friends, though). Hilariously, a Google search for this subject sent me right back to Ken Levine's Blog, a post about the very same thing.
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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Cheers! Sam & Diane! NORM! Woody! Frasier!)

Post by Ares »

Something from the Frasier wiki regarding the episode where Diane came back:
This is one of Kelsey Grammer's favorite episodes. On Cheers, Shelley Long didn't like the Frasier character and lobbied hard to get Grammer removed from the show. The producers disagreed, noting that the audience liked him. When Long's character of Diane Chambers appeared on this show, Grammer said the episode was an opportunity for him and Long to make peace with each other.
This is another example of how acting is different from a lot of jobs. Imagine potentially losing your job because another actor "doesn't like your character" and "lobbied hard to get you removed from the show".
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Shock
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Location: Connecticut USA

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Cheers! Sam & Diane! NORM! Woody! Frasier!)

Post by Shock »

Ares wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:44 pm Something from the Frasier wiki regarding the episode where Diane came back:
This is one of Kelsey Grammer's favorite episodes. On Cheers, Shelley Long didn't like the Frasier character and lobbied hard to get Grammer removed from the show. The producers disagreed, noting that the audience liked him. When Long's character of Diane Chambers appeared on this show, Grammer said the episode was an opportunity for him and Long to make peace with each other.
This is another example of how acting is different from a lot of jobs. Imagine potentially losing your job because another actor "doesn't like your character" and "lobbied hard to get you removed from the show".
I don't think that's different from other jobs. If a coworker of mine was lobbying to get me fired, I'd be pretty pissed.

I think the TV entertainment industry is probably very similar to sports. A player leaving the team could have a significant impact on the other players. But for the most part, you don't see sports figures criticizing their peers for leaving for a better opportunity elsewhere.
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