Jab’s Power Profiles: Deleted 2nd Edition Powers- Ward! Area Effects!

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Davies
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Concealment! Senses! Mind Reading!

Post by Davies »

Sensory Link is horribly underpriced for what it does -- for +1 point per rank, you effectively get a Remote Sensing (all senses), Medium (someone's mind) effect worth about 4 points per rank, or possibly less given that you implicitly become unaware of your surroundings while using it, unlike regular Remote Sensing which just leaves you vulnerable. No matter how much limited it is, it's still worth a lot more than 1 point per rank.

One unmentioned, frequently depicted Mind Reading variant is combining the Percepton Area and Surface Thoughts extra and flaw, often adding Uncontrolled, for the way that you sometimes see telepaths "hearing" bits of inner monologue from a large number of people, like this:

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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Concealment! Senses! Mind Reading!

Post by Jabroniville »

Davies wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:48 am Sensory Link is horribly underpriced for what it does -- for +1 point per rank, you effectively get a Remote Sensing (all senses), Medium (someone's mind) effect worth about 4 points per rank, or possibly less given that you implicitly become unaware of your surroundings while using it, unlike regular Remote Sensing which just leaves you vulnerable. No matter how much limited it is, it's still worth a lot more than 1 point per rank.
Hm, yeah- good point. It's basically Remote Sensing with a Flaw, lol. I often use that exact power for those "Medium" characters.
One unmentioned, frequently depicted Mind Reading variant is combining the Percepton Area and Surface Thoughts extra and flaw, often adding Uncontrolled, for the way that you sometimes see telepaths "hearing" bits of inner monologue from a large number of people, like this:
Claremont was pretty good about remembering stuff like that. He often made it quite debilitating, too, justifying why telepaths didn't just single out people and defend themselves from attackers. Professor Xavier was so stunned by bad thoughts that REGULAR RACISTS beat him down, and Emma Frost was flummoxed by the anger of a teenage Firestar and nearly got killed for it.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Concealment! Senses! Mind Reading!

Post by Jack of Spades »

I think telepathy is rarer at DC because DC's characters, historically, are much more about solving crimes and telepathy makes that far too easy.

When running Marvel telepaths, I have used some overlap between Mind Reading and Senses to simulate the full range of their abilities–Senses covering the things they do "passively," as you describe. So I give a typical mutant telepath:
Psychic Senses: Senses 6 (Acute Accurate Ranged Radius Detect Minds) • 6 points
Empathic Sense: Senses 4 (Acute Ranged Radius Detect Emotion) • 4 points
And being subject to random Complications from telepathic overload is just part of the deal.
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Remote Sensing

Post by Jabroniville »

REMOTE SENSING:

Effect:
This takes up a full page for something that almost nobody uses. This is the old "Scrying/Astral Form" sorta power, allowing you to displace your senses over a distance. Remote Sensing 1 is 60 feet away, and every additional rank incredases it one range increment. It overrides your normal senses while using it (so you can't see right next to you, for instance), and you're Vulnerable at the same time. Use your Perception and Investigation checks to look for stuff. Subjects can "see" you watching them with an Insight check (DC 10 + Remote Sensing rank).

It's 1 point per sense type, with Visual senses counting twice.

Who Uses It?: Doctor Strange is almost DEFINED by this in some respects, with numerous old comics depicting him floating away from his physical body to go fight a demon or go to another dimension or something. Like, they did this all the time. Professor Xavier used to do this a lot in the 1960s, too, but has largely stopped. Psylocke often used the "Floating Eyes" with her signature "Butterfly" emanations, using it to communicate with the team. "Scrying" spells include this power, and you'll see it off and on in various settings. Any sense other than Vision or Hearing is pretty rare, though. Because she's Native American, Danielle Moonstar can see through the eyes of animals.

It's more common in other RPGs, though- my Rifts builds use it a LOT.

Extras & Flaws: "Subtle" is the common one, and a Feat- I honestly never see comic characters use Remote Sensing that ISN'T Subtle- 1 rank increases the DC to notice you by 10, and 2 ranks means it's totally unnoticeable. Other Feats include "Dimensional" again, letting you visit other dimensions in this form. 1 rank lets you go to one dimension, 2 lets you go to a group, and 3 lets you go to any in the setting.

"No Conduit" means you cannot be Dazzled by anything you see at range while using your power, but you also can't use Perception-Ranged effects of yours.

Flaws include "Feedback", where attacks placed where your senses are located will hurt you like normal. "Medium" requires you to have a common medium through which to place yours senses- Shadows, Flames, Mirrors, Water, etc. "Shadows" is probably the most common for villains. "Through The Eyes of Others" is a common one as well, but not listed here (which is funny because it's a 1-point Feat on Mind Reading). "Noticeable" is a -1 point thing that makes it obvious you're watching others, like a glowing set of eyes or something. A "Remote Camera" would probably be like this. One I often use is "Physical Body is Defenseless", as you essentially get a free hit against Doctor Strange and others.

Related Stuff: Adding Senses to your build increases the potential for using this by a ways. It's countered by Concealment and other things, too- "Psychic Awareness" might counter a telepath using it. The "Sensory Link" Feat from Mind Reading is essentially the same thing enabling you to see through the eyes of others, and is a better use of points if you've got a Mind Reader.

How Effective Is It?: This is a pretty un-used power, but a powergamer might try to sneak in Perception-Ranged Effects onto their builds- this is the infamous "Bathroom Psychic" that GMs should always watch out for. "No Conduit" seems pointless for the cost. The power can also be used to spy on people from afar, meaning that GMs sometimes have to be careful of it- players can easily use it to either solve the detective story of the day, or to peek around corners and know what's facing them.

Fixing It?: This is tricky as it's not that expensive.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Concealment! Senses! Mind Reading!

Post by Davies »

The range is too low for my liking; remote sensors in fiction often have global range, which costs a ridiculous amount of points as it stands.

Astral projectors and the like are more often limited by the amount of time they can have their consciousness separate from their body, which might make for an interesting variant on this.
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Re: Remote Sensing

Post by JDRook »

Jabroniville wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 6:48 am REMOTE SENSING:
...
Extras & Flaws:
... "Through The Eyes of Others" is a common one as well, but not listed here (which is funny because it's a 1-point Feat on Mind Reading)...
Related Stuff: ... The "Sensory Link" Feat from Mind Reading is essentially the same thing enabling you to see through the eyes of others, and is a better use of points if you've got a Mind Reader.
Sensory Link on Mind Reading is actually a +1 Extra, so vanilla Mind Reading with Sensory Link would be 3p/rank: Rank 10 would cost 30p and be resisted on a DC20, which would be effective on most NPCs and a few PCs. It can have potentially unlimited range depending on how the mind is targeted, and would cover all of the senses of the target.

Remote Sensing Limited to the Eyes of Others would not be resistible by default, but you're paying for both range and senses. To compare with the 30p Mind Reading above, 3p/rank could get you Visual and Auditory, and the Limit would bring that down to 2p/r, giving room for another Sense or an Extra, and 10 ranks would give you a 4-mile radius to work with.

The two powers are definitely comparable in price and function, but different enough in concept (eg Scryer vs Mind Reader) that I don't think you'd use them interchangeably.
Davies wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:10 am The range is too low for my liking; remote sensors in fiction often have global range, which costs a ridiculous amount of points as it stands.
Maybe it needs staged ranges more like Communication.
Astral projectors and the like are more often limited by the amount of time they can have their consciousness separate from their body, which might make for an interesting variant on this.
Agreed! I know the Palladium Astral Projection has limited time usually based on level, but also an arbitrary movement limit of Mach 1 while "out-of-body" as a further limit. In most other media I've seen, APs can essentially teleport to places, which would fit with how Remote Sensing is set up.
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Re: Remote Sensing

Post by Jabroniville »

JDRook wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:35 am
Sensory Link on Mind Reading is actually a +1 Extra, so vanilla Mind Reading with Sensory Link would be 3p/rank: Rank 10 would cost 30p and be resisted on a DC20, which would be effective on most NPCs and a few PCs. It can have potentially unlimited range depending on how the mind is targeted, and would cover all of the senses of the target.
Ah, my mistake- I misread the bit in the book. It's annoying they have Feats & Extras written right together like that. I miss 2e compartmentalizing them.
Remote Sensing Limited to the Eyes of Others would not be resistible by default, but you're paying for both range and senses. To compare with the 30p Mind Reading above, 3p/rank could get you Visual and Auditory, and the Limit would bring that down to 2p/r, giving room for another Sense or an Extra, and 10 ranks would give you a 4-mile radius to work with.

The two powers are definitely comparable in price and function, but different enough in concept (eg Scryer vs Mind Reader) that I don't think you'd use them interchangeably.
Yeah, if Sensory Link is an Extra then they're quite a bit closer.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Concealment! Senses! Mind Reading!

Post by Jack of Spades »

I feel like the thing that justifies Remote Sensing's huge cost is the ability to use Perception-range powers through it; it's the signature "bathroom psychic" power. The Perception extra on Communication may be cheap at the price, but it seems more proportional for just sensing, especially given that you're perceptible by whatever means you used for Communication in the first place.
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Illusion

Post by Jabroniville »

ILLUSION:

Effect:
You create illusory things that can fool other people- like most sensory powers, it's 1 point per sense type, with 2 for vision. This combines to make the points per rank (5/rank makes it work on all sense types), and each rank increases the save DC to see through the illusion (Insight vs. DC 10 + Illusion Rank), as well as the volume of your illusion. Yeah, you have to look at THAT chart- Illusion 10 nets you... 1,000 cubic feet? What's 1,000 cubic feet? *Googles* oh, a little larger than a room. Then you double that or half that each rank higher or lower. A standard action maintains the illusion.

Illusions cannot provide warmth or do damage, nor illumination. Which is funny because you can't make illusory light look like light? Characters do not get to check if something is illusory until they actually interact with it (ie. touch it)- proof is needed that the illusion isn't real for people to believe it so. The Sense "Counters Illusion" automatically makes you disbelieve them, and if you share disbelief with others, then get a +5 to their check.

This is a bit tricky, because in the comics Illusions nearly always work until someone has a super-sense that overrides them (Wolverine realizing that the hologram has no scent, for instance). Even outlandish things like showing some Hellfire Club goons a giant Emma Frost are believed at first. So what DC do you choose?

Not that Visual Illusions are by far the most common, but most of these also come with an Audio component or they'd be completely silent. So MOST Illusion users are using a 3/rank version, making it a fairly expensive power.

Who Uses It?: Tons of characters- mostly villains, but a few heroes like Dr. Strange and other mages can, as well as the best Telepaths. The most obvious by far is Mysterio himself, whose illusions even make a mess for Spider-Man's senses. Dani Moonstar of the New Mutants had people's deepest fears and desires manifest in gigantic illusions, and is probably the next most iconic example of this power in comics. Mirage of the Scourge victims pretty much ONLY used this. Moonglow in Squadron Supreme used both the Morph version (to make herself look young) and a way to fake herself having other powers (such as flight) and make people see things that weren't there (Shape was made to see Ape-X recover from her coma and tell him not to trust the old Squadron members). Hologram illusions are the same thing- Jem of Jem & The Holograms made frequent use of this (even having people believing things like giant rainstorms that caused floods, even though her targets weren't getting wet).

Illusory Scent is... pretty rare. Can't think of any offhand. And is Taste supposed to be the other one? Why are there five ranks?

Extras & Flaws: "Independent" makes your illusions need only a Free Action to maintain, not a Standard one. "Selective" lets you choose who believes your illusions.

Flaws include "Limited to One Subject", "Feedback" (where attacking the illusions causes you pain) and "Resistible"- typically by Will, which means the illusions are projected into someone's mind (most Telepaths have this version). This would mean that machines wouldn't be fooled. Resisted by Fortitude might be a hallucinatory drug.

Related Stuff: The sidebar explains some- Damaging Illusions are "Perception-Ranged Damage", Illusory Disguises are "Morph"

How Effective Is It?: It's... I dunno. In context I don't see it much. A hero with this power is somewhat rare. The book explicitly lays out how common the "make the enemies fight each other" thing is, making people look like someone else and just standing back to watch. So that can definitely be very effective, especially if the enemy doesn't get an Insight check until AFTER the blows are struck (fighting each other certainly counts as "interacting" with the illusions.

The main issue with Illusion is that you usually need Vision AND Hearing, so it's 3p/rank right away, which is pricey if you want bigger illusions. And it'll turn off as soon as you switch powers if you make it an Alternate Effect.

Fixing It?: It feels like anyone using Illusions is gonna be an "Illusion Guy" and that's it, or is a Magic/Psychic hero with a more expensive power with this wrapped up in an array, so what difference does it make?
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Re: Illusion

Post by Davies »

Jabroniville wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:32 am [
Illusory Scent is... pretty rare. Can't think of any offhand. And is Taste supposed to be the other one? Why are there five ranks?
Arguably, one could say that perfume is Illusory Scent. (You smell like roses, but there's no roses anywhere around.)

Illusory smoke will set off smoke detectors, which might in turn set off an installation's Fire Prevention System.

Smell and Taste are included under the Olfactory sense group, which is ... not quite how these things work, but the sense of Taste is probably the most limited sense in humans other than some that are likewise folded into Tactile, like balance. The other two sensory groups are Mental (including Mind Reading, Postcognition and Precognition) and Radio (Radar and radio communications.)

You can have FUN with those two. Mental-only illusions designed to fool mind readers can work great for implanted memories. Imagine creating illusions designed to fool people who rely on precognition, or false radar contacts.
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Re: Illusion

Post by Jabroniville »

Davies wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:54 am
Jabroniville wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:32 am [
Illusory Scent is... pretty rare. Can't think of any offhand. And is Taste supposed to be the other one? Why are there five ranks?
Arguably, one could say that perfume is Illusory Scent. (You smell like roses, but there's no roses anywhere around.)

Illusory smoke will set off smoke detectors, which might in turn set off an installation's Fire Prevention System.

Smell and Taste are included under the Olfactory sense group, which is ... not quite how these things work, but the sense of Taste is probably the most limited sense in humans other than some that are likewise folded into Tactile, like balance. The other two sensory groups are Mental (including Mind Reading, Postcognition and Precognition) and Radio (Radar and radio communications.)

You can have FUN with those two. Mental-only illusions designed to fool mind readers can work great for implanted memories. Imagine creating illusions designed to fool people who rely on precognition, or false radar contacts.
The only issue with the "Mental is the fifth one" is that it's supposed to have the Resistible Flaw, meaning it's like... a different kind of Illusion entirely. But yeah, "Senses" lists five and it's like you said- Olfactory & Mental are in there.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Mind Reading! Remote Sensing! Illusion!

Post by Seren »

Personally, what I don't like about the "no check until they interact with it" is the vagueness on interaction, particularly when you don't have visual illusions. I understand why it's vague, and I agree that it's too much of a nerf if interaction includes seeing a visual illusion. But other senses are still prone to either being unable to interact with (which seems like too much) or interaction includes sensing the illusion with that sense (which seems cheap, as it's strongly suggested that this doesn't work for visual).


I think part of the problem with Mental is that there's a difference between "Mental Illusions" as listed in the Illusion power and "Illusions targeting the Mental Sense Type" that is really muddled because they almost always overlap.
My understanding is that "Mental Illusions" are illusions that target one or more senses and occur in the mind, not in the world (some Metaphysics classes are really shouting at me here, but I'll try to leave that out). This would be a hallucination, rather than a mirage.

On the other hand, "Illusions targeting the Mental Sense Type" would be illusions that are detectable with those senses - normal humans are pretty limited there. The only thing I can think of (for a normal human) that doesn't have Mental Illusions would essentially be falsifying motivation and allowing you to choose what a successful Insight check picks up.
There's a couple spells in D&D that I'd say have this effect: Glibness ("no matter what you say, magic that would determine if you are telling the truth indicates that you are being truthful") and Nystul's Magic Aura ("You can make a nonmagical object appear magical, a magical object appear nonmagical, or change the object’s magical aura") are the ones that come to mind. As those suggest, it's easier to describe with additional Mental Senses, but you can imagine the effect Glibness describes on a non-magical Insight check.
These affect what is being detected, not who is detecting them, which is how I'd see the distinction. Naturally, this does open up another power to be aware of - with Independent, you can have an Illusion hidden under an Illusion and repeat it indefinitely.

My other examples are really drawing on the Selective extra as opposed to the Resistible flaw - Resistible without Selective is just a mass hallucination.
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Dazzle

Post by Jabroniville »

DAZZLE:

Effect:
You can "dazzle" one sense to make someone unaware of something with that particular sense. This is an "Affliction" power, and they thankfully tell you how to build it, as Dazzle is a very common power in comics. In this case, it's Affliction (Impaired/Disabled/Unaware; Cumulative, Ranged, Limited to One Sense Type) for 2p/rank. Cumulative means that the conditions stack the way damage does.

The target makes a Will or Fortitude Save (your choice at power selection) against DC 10 +Affliction. One degree of failure leaves you -2 to that sense (like, Perception checks and stuff), two degrees leaves you -5, and three degrees leaves you unaware entirely. So a Visual Dazzle will leave you totally unaware and -5 in combat, making it much worse. You get a new resistance check every turn- success means you overcome it.

Unusually, this is one of the only powers I can see that affects senses and doesn't cost double for Vision.

Who Uses It?: Dazzles are EXTREMELY common in comics, but mostly as side-tricks to established characters. Doctor Light I & II both do it, and most any Light-based hero does as well. Dazzler and Dagger both use it at Marvel. Flash-bang grenades will affect sight and hearing, smoke grenades scent (sometimes- otherwise it's just Concealment). I usually throw one onto Spider-Man for the trick where he webs up someone's eyes. The "Solar Flare" power in Dragon Ball Z was one of the few to retain effectiveness for ages.

Extras & Flaws: Most of the ones under "Affliction" work here- typically in comics Area Effects are more common than the "Blast" variant in here- stuff like Burst Area to affect an entire group.

Related Stuff: "Dazzle" vs. "Concealment" is often the question- sometimes you gotta think about it, but mostly if it just covers stuff, it's Concealment (Invisibility, Shadows, etc.), while if it's an attack or something that attacks your sense directly, it's a Dazzle.

How Effective Is It?: Dazzle Visuals is quite potent, though it's a bit tricky to get to work like it does in the comics- someone who is Visually Unaware is at -5 to combat, which is a big deal. But it's really quite tough to fail one of these checks entirely- you'd have to fail by 10, so if your Fortitude is +10 or so you have a 50% chance, and that's if it hits you in the first place. Dazzle Scent is a bit weird, though- it's very utility and isn't gonna come up often. At least Dazzle Hearing will actually affect people's communication skills and Perception checks.

Fixing It?: Dazzle is sometimes questionable overall- it's a solid "set-up move" as it leaves characters a lot more vulnerable in team fights. But it's got a few steps to make it work, and you blow a turn trying it. Like a lot of Afflictions, it has issues with the value and effectiveness.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Remote Sensing! Illusion! Dazzle!

Post by JDRook »

If you want to Dazzle more than one sense, including Vision, with something like a flash-bang, I'd be more likely to not put the Limit on it and just buy it as Impaird/Disabled/Unaware. Honestly, considering that Visual is so much more effective, I'd be tempted to make Limited to Visual a -0 Flaw.
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Alteration Powers

Post by Jabroniville »

ALTERATION POWERS:
-A handful of similar powers based around modifying the environment around you, either via creating stuff or modifying what's already there. This is the smallest section, and really only kept separate because it lacks attacks and is tangentially related.

* Create
* Environment
* Transform
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