Jab’s Power Profiles: Deleted 2nd Edition Powers- Ward! Area Effects!

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Batgirl III
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Space, Dimensional & Time Travel!

Post by Batgirl III »

FuzzyBoots wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:05 pm Another thing that you may or may not wish to address regarding senses is the continued confusion about what properties you get to keep for exotic senses that are tied to the regular ones. For instance, in the book, they have improvision as a one Power Point sense, but by definition, that wouldn't get you the accurate or acute from your normal vision. Similarly, there's the ongoing debate about what happens when you have detect or awareness that are tied to a vital sense like that.
I have always operated on the assumption that you kept everything the “mundane” version of the sense had and that the additional elements were just added to it…

Have I been doing it wrong this whole time?
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Space, Dimensional & Time Travel!

Post by Davies »

To be doing it wrong, there would have to be a consensus on what doing it right means. In this, as in other things, it seems that no such consensus exists.

tl;dr: Maybe.
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Seren
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Space, Dimensional & Time Travel!

Post by Seren »

It looks to me like the 'official' Superman is built assuming you keep the basics - his ultra-hearing and infravision don't have Ranged, let alone Extended otherwise. However, I still read the power heavily leaning the other direction, so I debate with myself every time.

I was curious about his senses compared to Heat Vision, and unless Extended Vision applies to Infravision, he can't target someone at long range using Infravision. I'm not sure which side that works in favor of.

Then again, the official hawk can only see about a third of the distance they hunt from (and then, only on a critical success), so grain of salt.
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Comprehend

Post by Jabroniville »

COMPREHEND:

Effect:
For 2 points per rank, you can communicate with something most others can't. Each one is technically a bit different, and the default is speaking to & understanding (others let you pay for that separately). It's implied that most things are aware of what happened right in front of them, in cases granting awareness to things like objects. Most common by far are "Languages" and "Animals"- the rest are so rare it's a wonder they remembered to include them specifically.

Comprehend (Animals)- You can speak to OR understand animals, or buy two ranks and do both. It notes that an animal's feelings towards you will effect their answers.

Comprehend (Languages)- The big one, this is the "Universal Translator". 1 rank for either speaking or understanding the language of any intelligent creature. 2 ranks lets you do both. 3 ranks lets anyone listening to you hear you speak in their own language. Being able to READ any language is an extra rank.

Comprehend (Machines)- Speaking to & understanding machines for 2 ranks. It notes that most are simple and can only answer according to their programming. Technology skill MAY (at the GM's discretion) be used as an interaction skill.

Comprehend (Objects)- This lets inanimate objects "speak" to you. Note that it will only know whatever happened in its immediate area. 2 ranks.

Comprehend (Plants)- Communicating with plants and plant creatures. 2 ranks.

Comprehend (Spirits)- 1 rank lets you be a "medium" for spirits, relaying what they tell you. 2 ranks lets you talk back. It may or may not allow communication with the undead, demons or other supernatural entities- GM's discretion.

Who Uses It?: You actually see the "Languages" version a TON, but typically in two ways: creatures that automatically know all languages (D&D beings of high power) and as an ancillary hand-waved thing in science fiction. Like, Star Trek and the Legion of Super-Heroes just throw these things in there to be like "Oh yeah, this is how everyone understands each other". Because dealing with different languages and lack of communication is FRIGGIN' BORING, and the vast majority of sci-fi writers will just BS in "automatic translators" as part of the equipment of their Starfleet people.

Comic book characters who use Comprehend (Languages) as a natural element of themselves are incredibly rare. Though Professor X used this to hand-wave away his team of multinational X-Men learning to understand each other, this typically hasn't been used that way since (as it brings up more questions than it answers).

Comprehend (Animals) is extremely common- Aquaman and other prominent superheroes do this. Others, like Comprehend (Plants) or (Spirits), are incredibly rare- Plant Controllers like Poison Ivy can do the former, while psychic mediums can do the latter. Talking to OBJECTS is not one I've seen much of.

Extras & Flaws: "Affects Others" lets others do it (the aforementioned Professor X trick). Comprehend (Animals) is almost less common than a "Limited to Fish/Birds/Cats" variant. You could even limit one step further to a specific KIND of animal, like pigeons or housecats or whatever, costing 1 point.

Related Stuff: None

How Effective Is It?: This one depends entirely on the thing chosen:

Comprehend (Languages) feels like a solid deal- 4 points to speak to & understand anyone. The main issue with this power is the "Languages" Advantage, which is actually COMPLETE GARBAGE because of this power. Like, it costs ONE POINT just to speak one extra language in the game- something I've always found incredibly stupid. And you double it every extra rank, so Languages 4 (the same price as Comprehend 2) nets you 8 languages, vs. "Every Sentient Being's Language" for the latter. It's ridiculous.

The 3rd rank is one I actually forgot existed, lol. Not that I can think of anyone who does that. Maybe a Cosmic being? Being able to read any language is also handy. The one funny thing is how often you see this buried in Equipment, like that in Star Trek or The Legion of Super-Heroes. So it's basically 1 point for using it as gear (cuz how often is it gonna be targetted by an enemy, really?).

Comprehend (Animals) is 4 points for a pretty solid base ability, though it's not "Animal Control", as they point out- creatures may still be highly unfriendly. It even points out that dumb animals don't have much to say. But I can see 4 points as being worth it.

Comprehend (Machines/Plants/Objects) is all very niche and kind of odd. Each one costs FOUR RANKS which is kind of a lot for something that's pretty minor like that.

Fixing It?: The last three listed above are all kind of the same- niche powers costing 4 points, which feels like a lot. Languages might be TOO cheap, though if it was more people probably wouldn't take it- the Advantage is just a garbage price (so much so that it's one of very, very few things in this game I houseruled and ignore completely half the time). Animals seems fine.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Space, Dimensional & Time Travel!

Post by Davies »

My most recent idea for making Language more effective for its cost is to change it so that for every point you put into it, you get your a number of languages equal to your Intellect rank (or a minimum of 1.) So I, with my INT 1 (on good days) would have to spend 3 points to get the French, German and Spanish that I sort of understand (on good days), but Reed Richards, with his INT of 12, spends 1 point and gets those plus 9 more.

I would argue that you also need the 3rd rank of Comprehend Languages to be able to understand signed languages and others that use non-visual, non-auditory signals (scent, for example.)
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Communication

Post by Jabroniville »

COMMUNICATION:

Effect:
Communication takes up a full page and has a LONG description of stuff- it's effectively "communicating by something other than your normal voice", costing FOUR FREAKING POINTS (!!) per rank. Rank 1 is within 100 feet, Rank 2 is within 1 mile, Rank 3 is "statewide", Rank 4 is worldwide, and Rank 5 covers the entire universe. So unlike most other powers involving distance, this one doesn't use the table.

A key aspect of this is someone needs to have the appropriate sense to detect your communication, though it points out that any sentient being can do the Mental version.

Six powers are listed, but it points out you can use others, which I sometimes forget about- it even lists "Magical Sending". The powers are Visual (laser/fiber-optic), Auditory (ultrasonic and even mentions "ventriloquism" which is weird), Olfactory (pheromones and "chemical markers" which isn't explained and isn't really qualified under the powers here at all), Radio and Mental- the latter one part of "Telepathy" (which also mentions magical sending). Others I've personally used are things like "Electric" (for sending signals through phone lines or wires).

Communication is instantaneous and sent towards a single target (without the Area extra below), and you can receive Communication of the same type as yours. Using the power is a free action, but it takes the normal amount of time. Others CAN overhear you if they have the right sense to do it (DC 10 + Comm rank).

Communication is a rare one that's rarely used without Extras or Flaws, especially Area.

Who Uses It?: Mental Communication is EXCEPTIONALLY common and by far the most used as a real superpower, as it's common to nearly every Telepath-themed character in comics, of which there are a lot. Martian Manhunter, Professor X, Jean Grey, Emma Frost and others all do this. It's generally seen linked to Mind-Reading as a general "Telepathy" power, making it a lot of words to type out as part of a Dynamic Array. Many can easily communicate over the entire globe (4 ranks).

Radio is obviously common, but most people use that as a 1-point piece of equipment since it's so mundane. Powersuit guys like Iron Man use it, however. Green Lanterns can also tap into it and communicate with each other galaxy-wide.

Auditory is a weird one- no one ever does that. Except... "ventriloquism". It doesn't really mention how that fits here (or what you charge for it). I think Ultraman in Top Ten did that (his niece warned him ultrasonically about the cops being after him). Visual is a rare one but some people can send "air letters"? Olfactory is more or less how a lot of insects communication, but even I don't use it that way, lol. Their "markers" aren't explained and insect pheromones aren't instantaneous- more of a thing sent into the wind that may or may not reach others.

Extras & Flaws: This one has a LOT of them. Almost every Telepath in comics has "Area" and "Selective" added in- one allows you to broadcast to everyone over your maximum range, and Selective lets you keep some people out.

There are multiple 1-point Feats; Dimensional is the rare one that lets you cross dimensions with it (but even the book is like "we dunno how to handle distances in that case")- magic characters do this. Rapid lets you communicate entire swaths of information at once (like computer links or "instant" psychic rapports; hey that's a trick Professor X has used at least once). Each rank speeds things up by a factor of ten. Subtle allows you to block out others- with two ranks it can't be detected PERIOD and people can't even tell you're transmitting. Something psychics can sometimes do (*checks* oh good my Professor X build has this).

Flaws are pretty encompassing, too- "Limited" contains things into a species or "type" (Aquaman and others are limited this way). Green Lanterns can only send instant messages cross-galaxy to each other. The "Sense-Dependent" flaw is treated like it belongs on other Perception-range powers, not this one (which includes it by default).

Related Stuff: Nearly all Telepaths combine Mental Communication with Mind-Reading. Others are typically not included, though an Electricity-themed character might be able to communicate over phone lines.

How Effective Is It?: HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA Oh god no. So this is notoriously the most over-priced power in the game. Burrowing might have it beat but nobody uses Burrowing. This charges you like 8 points for what a f*ckin' RADIO does. With Mental Communication I can get it, but this charges 4 points per rank for even the weird ones. It sticks out like a sore thumb, in particular because it's the third power listed in the book and like Burrowing in front of it, it's over-pointed- beginner players probably read through this like "WTF?" picking up the book for the first time. Someone talking over miles would be spending 12 points for the base power, and usually need Area/Selective, pushing it to 15-18.

Fixing It?: I feel like someone needs to split some of these up and change up the costs- most should be 1-2 points per rank, with Mental being the big one needing to be pricier, since it works with everybody and doesn't need a weird means of conveyance. I think it needs more explaining as well- I'd imagine this is a power GMs & players have to hash out near the beginning.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

Post by Davies »

I think this is a power that is too expensive at low levels, but too cheap at high ones -- being able to communicate with everyone in the universe should probably cost more than 25 points.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

Post by squirrelly-sama »

Davies wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:24 am I think this is a power that is too expensive at low levels, but too cheap at high ones -- being able to communicate with everyone in the universe should probably cost more than 25 points.
Sure that sounds impressive but realistically how often would that actually be useful in a game or story? At that point it's more a plot device that the GM may end up bringing up so you can talk to that one NPC who went back to his home planet 20 sessions ago to serve as a plot hook or retrieve some mcguffin. Communication is only as useful as how separated your telepath is from the rest of the team on average, and in the vast majority of cases it's just city wide. Honestly saying it needs to be more to speak with someone half the universe away would be like insisting someone buy the ranks of speed needed to break light speed to get the Space Travel movement effect.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

Post by Batgirl III »

squirrelly-sama wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:06 pm
Davies wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:24 am I think this is a power that is too expensive at low levels, but too cheap at high ones -- being able to communicate with everyone in the universe should probably cost more than 25 points.
Sure that sounds impressive but realistically how often would that actually be useful in a game or story?
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

Post by JDRook »

I think Communication, Illusion, and Remote Sensing could all be combined into one Effect that imparts information via the senses. A base cost dependent on the senses used (Visual 2, Audio, Scent, etc), and things like Planetary and Galactic ranges could be Extras.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

Post by Harnos »

Communication's overpricing seems really weird when building power armor guys; like do I really need to spend 12 points for something a smartphone does? This is true for powers like time sense and direction sense. I guess it would be ok to handle those with Enhanced Advantages: Equipment:
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

Post by FuzzyBoots »

At least Time Sense and Direction Sense are only a PP each.
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Concealment

Post by Jabroniville »

CONCEALMENT:

Effect:
For 2 points per rank, you can gain total concealment from one sense. With an extra rank, you gain immunity from the entire sense TYPE (ie. Concealment 1 works against normal vision, but Concealment 2 is required to work against infravision/ultravision/etc.). Vision, being by far the most important for nearly all creatures, costs double. Concealment 5 thus gives you concealment against all senses save tactile ones (you need Insubstantial for that), and Concealment 10 nets you concealment against every sense type.

The problem of course is that later in the book you can find the section on "total concealment", and realize this nets enemies a -5 to hit someone under such conditions. Effectively 4 points buys you 10 points of defense, in addition to making it so people are unaware of your presence. And it renders you immune to Perception-Range attacks, as people can't find out where you are.

Who Uses It?: The Invisible Woman is naturally the most well-known superhero of all time for this ability, but you'll find it elsewhere. Silhouette of the New Warriors could blend into the shadows to get sneak attacks. The Martian Manhunter contains it among his myriad powers, as do other Martians like Miss Martian. The Golden Age hero Invisible Hood had it. Plenty of ninjas have used aspects of it as well. The "Attack Concealment" effect is a common way to get smoke grenades, and nearly any Darkforce-using hero or villain (Cloak, Asylum, Dansen Macabre, etc.) uses it like that- a blinding attack. Fighting Game characters and video game bosses also use invisibility a lot, too- often selectively or for short periods of time.

Concealment from Hearing isn't that common but has been shown a couple of times. Concealment from other Senses is very, very rare. Morph from Exiles had no scent, but this was only used in one story (to hide him from a predatory Wolverine).

Extras & Flaws: Affects Others allows other people to use it- adding Ranged to that helps it work at range (Sue Storm does this a lot). If you add AREA to Affects Others you can give it to anyone around you, and adding Attack to it is how you get "smoke grenades" and Darkness-afflicting attacks that blind people. Attack is a +0 Extra, too. "Precise" is a Feat that lets you just show bits of yourself, or activate only one of your Concealments at a time (like over hearing instead of sight).

The Flaws are a bit more common. Blending means you have to move at -1 speed to use Concealment. This is common for "chameleon" type characters. Passive means you can only use it when not attacking- meaning it's purely a stealth thing. Partial means you can only cover up parts of yourself. Limited is common to leaving you unable to use the power outside of certain conditions- "Shadow Melders" like Silhouette often use "Limited to Shadows".

Related Stuff: It's opposed by Senses but otherwise it's kind of its own thing. I suppose Illusion and stuff fits.

How Effective Is It?: Concealment is far and away the power most notorious for being way too damn cheap for what you get. Like, for EIGHT POINTS you give your enemies an absolutely massive penalty to strike you considering that such things are normally based off of PL- it's effectively a 2.5 PL boost to defenses that costs almost nothing, especially as it can also greatly enhanced your stealth. AND it renders you mostly immune to Perception-Ranged Attacks (as people have to actually, you know, PERCEIVE you). Never mind that you can have characters like the Invisible Woman use simple 1-point boosts like Affects Others & Ranged to turn her entire team Invisible for several rounds, netting them ALL these bonuses.

Like, it's out and out nuts and costs probably less than half what it actually should- it's the most remarkable oversight in the book and probably #1 on the list of things GMs should immediately be alerted to if they find it on a build.

Fixing It?: HOO BOY. The tricky thing is Concealment (Scent) or whatever is fine where it is. But Concealment (Vision) for all sense types should probably cost at LEAST 20 points, not 8, given the huge benefits it allows you.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

Post by catsi563 »

Panda is one of my favorites to play using concealment which fits both her shadow nature and agile fighting style
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