Jab’s Power Profiles: Deleted 2nd Edition Powers- Ward! Area Effects!

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squirrelly-sama
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by squirrelly-sama »

Batgirl III wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:59 am So… Precise Insubstantial with a descriptor?
But that's not insubstantial, insubstantial is going through objects. Nothing in insubstantial actually says you can't feel them either.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by squirrelly-sama »

Batgirl III wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:08 pm Affliction makes for a much more efficient to play smoke bomb than a Concealment Attack:

Smoke Bomb Affliction X (Resist: Awareness; Recover: Awareness; Conditions: Impaired, Disabled, Unaware; E: Area [Cloud], Cumulative; Flaw: Instant Recovery, Limited to Visual Senses) [ 1 PP per Rank ]
EternalPhoenix wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:03 pm Ehhh. I don't like it. Flash bomb type effects affects the target's vision directly, requiring a save. Smoke bomb type effects are more passive. To me, at least, they're not something that gets saved against. They're something that's small enough avoided or can be countered by other effects like how smoke can be blown away by wind or concussive effects. I'd like to keep the two different, at least at my metaphorical table.
Build the Affliction power, as above, to a mere five ranks and it will only cost 1 Equipment Point. Five ranks is good enough that most minions, mooks, goons, and henchmen will fail the vast majority of the time. Yet proper supervillains will usually only be mildly inconvenienced with a -2 or -5 penalty… And supervillains with appropriate Effects that will be able to counter the Affliction Effect (e.g., a wind controller blowing away the cloud or a power-suit wearer with exotic sensory abilities) won’t be affected for long if at all.
Affliction has the issue that it needs to be resisted to work at all, and it needs to be failed massively in order to actually get the intended effect of making it so someone can't actually see you instead of just having a minor penalty to spotting you if you're hiding.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by Batgirl III »

squirrelly-sama wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:29 pm
Batgirl III wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:59 am So… Precise Insubstantial with a descriptor?
But that's not insubstantial, insubstantial is going through objects. Nothing in insubstantial actually says you can't feel them either.
I’m hard pressed to think of any descriptor that would apply to Insubstantial that wouldn’t include “can’t be felt.” Maybe ectoplasmic ghosts, a la Slimer of Ghostbusters… But that’s about it.
squirrelly-sama wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:34 pm Affliction has the issue that it needs to be resisted to work at all, and it needs to be failed massively in order to actually get the intended effect of making it so someone can't actually see you instead of just having a minor penalty to spotting you if you're hiding.
Well, Minions always suffer maximum degree from a failed Affliction save… and named supervillains in the comics usually aren’t too bothered by smoke bombs. The trick here would be to combine deploying the smoke bomb Affliction and using the Stealth Skill/Hide in Plain Sight to hide. Pretty standard costumed vigilante stuff.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by Davies »

squirrelly-sama wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:29 pm
Batgirl III wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:59 am So… Precise Insubstantial with a descriptor?
But that's not insubstantial, insubstantial is going through objects. Nothing in insubstantial actually says you can't feel them either.
The description of Concealment explicitly points to Insubstantial for your "cannot be perceived by tactile senses" needs. While I can envision a situation where someone cannot perceive something that does have substance with their tactile senses, it's a stretch.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by catsi563 »

Also id have to argue that its not underpointed for what it does as you have to double up on ranks for any vision related concealment ie 2 ranks for one vision and 4 for all vision as opposed to the 1 - 2 for others
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

Post by Jabroniville »

Wow, this one inspired a lot of comments, lol. Better than spending a whole month on just "Movement"!
FuzzyBoots wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:25 pm The other common usage I've seen is, outside of Visual Concealment, if you're Concealed from one sense, you pay to get them all, because Accurate senses are all over the place.

Since M&M doesn't use grids usually, using the "pick a square to try to attack" is its own difficulty with Total Concealment.

May be worth discussing how "Attack Concealment" to model smoke bombs has all kinds of weird little adjustments to make it "fit" in the system. 2e Obscure of course, was its own power, albeit one that used the same Sense Type setup of Concealment. Personally, I think they should have done Obscure as a version of Environment Control.
Yeah, I noticed the "Attack Concealment" thing is just... kind of an odd fit. Most "Attack" Extras in general are rather weird, often being +0 Extras to effectively give you an entirely different power, and I'm not sure why they went this way. Smoke Bombs are generally used in fiction to give characters quick exits, covering escapes and such, so the weird "Attack +0, Burst Area" adjustment is rather a convoluted way to get that.

Environment of course includes "Visibility" anyways XD!
Side note, I've always felt like there ought to be ways to at least confuse Tactile senses. Sure, without Insubstantial, they'll feel that they hit you, but it always felt weird that you couldn't make it such that you feel like the wall behind you, or a cloud of numbing gas that means no one inside can figure out what they're touching.
I GUESS "Affliction- Disabled Touch" or something might work. That's usually how I'd do it. Or just Morph but affecting other stuff.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by Jabroniville »

squirrelly-sama wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:09 am honestly I wish there was tactile immunity for people who can do things like pickpocket you, place something on you, or otherwise do some benign interaction you won't notice without actually seeing the after effects. Like a limited Insidious modifier.
Like BatgirlIII says, I would go with Limited Insubstantial or something like that. It's a bit odd, but I can't think of any characters anywhere that use it as a power.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by squirrelly-sama »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:18 am
squirrelly-sama wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:09 am honestly I wish there was tactile immunity for people who can do things like pickpocket you, place something on you, or otherwise do some benign interaction you won't notice without actually seeing the after effects. Like a limited Insidious modifier.
Like BatgirlIII says, I would go with Limited Insubstantial or something like that. It's a bit odd, but I can't think of any characters anywhere that use it as a power.
No, I don't think that would work if only because the only way that would make any sort of sense not feeling anything is if it's full insubstantial, a 20 point investment and probably only going down to like 8-12pp after the limits are slapped on it. And again it's a very clunky way to build what is essentially just subtle and insidious on touch. A single rank of Concealment is the same price as that and makes more sense but was just arbitrarily decided you can't do that.

Being able to just touch someone without them noticing is fairly common, usually as a skill or part of other concealment powers. It's generally planting things on people, pickpocketting them, plucking hairs or getting samples off them subtly. You have martial artists who can snatch clothing or such off people without them noticing until the target is shown in order to brag and detectives that can place trackers on people without them noticing, invisible supernatural monsters that often cling to or sit on people without them noticing anything more than maybe an eerie chill or or strange stiffness, it's occurred fairly often in visual gags where someone someone turns around and reveals that some comically large creature has been clinging to them off screen the entire time without them noticing. Heck, I'm pretty sure Superman has probably had some wacky uses in the silver age probably styling someones hair or changing their clothes without their notice.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by Batgirl III »

Sounds like the Sleight of Hand Skill to me…
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by squirrelly-sama »

Batgirl III wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:47 pm Sounds like the Sleight of Hand Skill to me…
And concealment is just stealth, safe fall is just acrobatics, Morph is just Deception, Leaping and Speed is just Athletics, Mind Reading is just really high insight, etc. That counter doesn't really hold a lot of weight when not only are many powers something you could explain as prodigious skill and ability but also a chunk of them are literally just autopassing specific skill checks. Like, what's the point of damage it's just limited strength, same with protection, Deflect should just be adding extras to an enhanced defense, so on and so forth.

It's something that would work thematically under that power descriptor, is an appropriate price when you consider how it works mechanically, and is an efficient means of doing so as it cuts down on overly complicated misc powers meant to represent a very simple and limited aspect of a power and instead consolidates it into something straightforward.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by Davies »

Except that Concealment is not just stealth. No amount of stealth will allow you to stand right in front of someone and have them not see you. Safe Fall is not just acrobatics. No amount of acrobatics will allow you to fall from a flying plane and survive. But putting an object on, or removing it from, a person without them realizing it is EXACTLY what Sleight of Hand does. Pickpockets the world over do this without superhuman powers.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by squirrelly-sama »

Davies wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:26 pm Except that Concealment is not just stealth. No amount of stealth will allow you to stand right in front of someone and have them not see you. Safe Fall is not just acrobatics. No amount of acrobatics will allow you to fall from a flying plane and survive. But putting an object on, or removing it from, a person without them realizing it is EXACTLY what Sleight of Hand does. Pickpockets the world over do this without superhuman powers.
Stealth with Hide in Plain Sight works exactly like stealth mechanically, likewise concealment is not just visual concealment but audible as well, would you be willing to say there should be no Audible concealment since that's just stealth? Falling is mechanically resisted by just having a high enough Acrobatics and rolling fairly well, sure you can say you can't just use acrobatics to take no damage falling from a plane but you could also say that you can't just use Sleight of Hand to literally steal the shirt of someone's back without them noticing. And in the same way you justify SoH being used for succeeding a pickpocket I can justify Acrobatics being used to reduce a fall for like 30-60 feet.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by Spectrum »

Would something like move object with subtle subtle and no range work?

Or what happens when you apply subtle to strength?
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Spectrum wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:03 am Or what happens when you apply subtle to strength?
One of the Power Profiles had Subtle Strength to model being able to make attacks look innocuous. Finger Flick, perhaps? Modeled Superman's ability to discretely flick someone in the forehead and knock them out, then claim they fainted.
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Senses

Post by Jabroniville »

SENSES:

Effect:
Senses covers a VAST set of stuff, all based around detecting things a little better than other people. Unlike most powers, it's a "pick and choose" kind of a thing, where you can grab various senses in varying amounts, adding them up for your total. You can even extend the range or acuity of basic senses you already have. Acute senses allow you to tell things apart from each other; Accurate senses let you pinpoint things and be able to aim attacks by that sense; Ranged senses may be used further than your immediate surroundings; Radius senses can be used all around you. Senses are -1 to detect things per 10 feet, at default. Senses can be differentiated from a single sense or the full sense "type" (like vision, infravision, ultravision, etc.)- usually, selecting a whole "type" doubles the price.

It obviously has to detail what your default senses have at... well, their default: Visual (acute, accurate, ranged). Hearing (acute, radius, ranged). Olfactory, aka smell & taste (radius). Tactile (accurate, radius). Mental (none).

Sense Enhancers:
"Accurate" you can pinpoint something in a precise manner- this nullifies Concealment powers (such as having super-hearing so an invisible person can't avoid you). Only vision is accurate in normal humans. More expensive than most, with 2 points (or 4 for all senses under that "type").

"Acute" you can tell things apart using this sense (only hearing & vision are like this for normal people). Most wild animals (and animal-themed characters in comics) have Acute Scent.

"Analytical" goes into things like chemical composition, exact dimensions, frequency of sounds, etc. Daredevil has a lot of "Analytical" senses, even TOUCH (allowing him to read print on a page).

"Detect" You can detect something by touch with a Perception check. For 2 points you can detect at range (I usually just mark "Ranged" or "Extended" for this).

"Awareness" detects power descriptors like Cosmic, Magic, etc.

"Ranged" increases a touch-range sense to a ranged one (including the Detect/Awareness Senses, which almost ALWAYS have this attached to them). To save space I often just type "Ranged X" to showcase Extended senses. Most animals have Ranged Scent, which I often write as "Extended". I mean, you know what I mean!

"Extended" increases the basic range of senses- hawks have Extended Vision (often seeing for miles), etc. Each rank extends the penalty for distance by a factor of ten (normally it's -1 per 10 feet, but now it's -1 per 100 feet, -1 per 1,000 feet, etc.).

"Low-Light Vision/Darkvision". The first lets you see in normal darkness (ie. nighttime), the way animals can. The second ignores all darkness entirely, costing 2 points.

"Infravision/Ultravision/Ultra-Hearing" Two kinds of vision and one form of hearing, all on different "spectrums" humans can't see. These add to "Sense Types" of vision & hearing, respectively.

"Microscopic Vision" Seeing tiny things. Rank 1 (dust-sized), 2 (cell-sized), 3 (DNA/molecules), 4 (atomic-sized).

"Rapid" lets you take in things more quickly than normal, like speed-reading, talking super-fast, etc. I usually forget this one exists. To be fair, "Quickness" contains a lot of this (speed-reading could be justified with that easily).

Countering Stuff:
"Counters Concealment" You ignore the Concealment power. Vision Counters Concealment is the "See the Invisible" power, and is the most common use of this. 2 points, but vision costs double (countering a 4 point power with another).

"Penetrates Concealment" You ignore stuff in the way of other stuff- essentially your "X-Ray Vision" power. 4 points.

"Counters Illusion" ignores the Illusion power for that sense. 2 points.

Detecting Certain Things:
"Direction/Distance/Time Sense" All variations of locating specific things- you can sense any direction (always detecting North, etc.), detect exact distances, or know exactly what time it is.

"Radio" lets you detect radio signals. Largely not used, except this is where "Radar" comes in, as you can make it Ranged, Radius and Acute (the book thankfully tells you this).

Unique Powers:
* These have unique, one-off tendencies.

"Communication Link" lets you have a link with one particular person, who must also have the power. You can communicate over any distance, like the Communication power. Jean Grey & Scott Summers have this in the comics.

"Danger Sense" A totally unique one, used to avoid being surprised in a combat round- roll a DC 10 Perception check, and if you pass by one degree, you are not surprised but cannot act during the surprsie round. Win by two degrees and you may act that round. You have to choose a sense type. Which is weird, because with Spider-Man it's clearly a brain thing (the buzzing is always around his head, and he refers to it as "tingling", like it has a physical sensation) and Mental Senses are by default pretty weak in normal people.

"Precognition/Postcognition" Seeing the future or the past. The book makes it quite clear this can be game-breaking, and suggests DCs for detailed information. 4 points.

"Tracking" lets you follow trails with one of your senses. This is basically the Tracking advantage, explained there, but that one only allows for following visual trails. For 2 ranks you can move at full normal speed while Tracking, which the advantage won't let you do. Damn I didn't realize this was ranked, lol.

Other Uses Not Mentioned:
* I've actually had to come up with "Lie Detection" a few times, and I think there's a few ways to handle it. As it's essentially Limited Insight it should be a bit pricey, but something like Detect Lies- Ranged, Radius?

Who Uses It?: A huge chunk of comic book characters have these powers in some degree, but Daredevil is most famous for them (in fact, they're his ONLY powers). Radar Sense, Enhanced & Extended everything, Analytical scent, taste, etc. The works. Superman is just as famous for them, with X-Ray Vision being most notable, but Extended Hearing as well. Both guys spend 20+ points on the vastness of their sensory capabilities.

Any Animal-Themed character in comics tends to at least have Acute Scent, while Extended Scent & Low-Light Vision are also common. Low-Light Vision may in fact be the single Power I've typed out the most, given how many creatures have it (humans are among the few animals to have noticeably bad night vision). Dogs have Ultra-Hearing, many birds have Ultravision, etc. Checking out animal biology gives you a LOT of potential options (many fish and birds know Direction Sense as well).

Detecting unusual things is pretty common in general- most wizards can Detect Magic, Magneto can Detect Metals, etc. Most of these should have Ranged & Radius on them (I often forget about the latter, but it's necessary for anything not in a straight line away from you).

Extras & Flaws: Many. Characters with worse senses than normal (dolphins have no sense of smell, for instance) have Complications, but many Senses have issues. Precognition is often "Limited to When Asleep" for Dream Girl-types who need to dream their precognitive visions. In fact, that Sense is probably the one that ALWAYS has flaws attached to it. More rarely, things like "Noticeable" make it clear you're using your senses (like glowing eyes). Unreliable senses can't be used all the time.

Extras are a little less common. "Affects Others" isn't used much, much less boosting it with "Area/Selective". Dimensional lets you extend senses into other dimensions (like via scrying). There's a bit for "Innate" for some reason- it imagines this for robots or aliens... but shouldn't EVERYONE have "Innate" then? I ignore this entirely.

Related Stuff: Remote Sensing is a more extreme version of this. It's countered by Concealment, which is itself countered by this.

How Effective Is It?: A couple ranks of Senses here or there is a great use of points- Acute Scent can pinpoint if someone's in disguise. Extended/Ranged Senses can help out in a chase or "percieve the enemy" scenario, and Tracking can boost that considerably. One issue is the "Sensory Power" guys, though- a lot of these kind of stack on top of each other and become superfluous, and guys like Daredevil and Superman will pump up a LOT of unnecessary things covering all those bases. I mean, 20+ points for a lot of that seems mean, especially as most of what DD uses is his physical capabilities (though Radar Sense enables him to avoid being blindsided in combat).

Fixing It?: It's been suggested that some Senses could be made Alternate Effects of other ones, to show that someone who's paying attention to scents won't be focusing on Low-Light Vision or Enhanced Hearing at the same time. It makes some sense, but of course your default senses aren't done this way. It'd be up to the GM. Precognition & Postcognition obviously have to be watched carefully (it not banned outright).
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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