Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

A place to discuss game rules, homebrew systems and the like.
Post Reply
Superfanboy
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:37 pm

Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

Post by Superfanboy »

By combining Extended Senses with Increased Range (Perception) it seems like you get a better deal than the equivalent investment in Extended Range. If you can't perceive someone you probably won't hit anyway.
Harnos
Posts: 499
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:03 am

Re: Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

Post by Harnos »

Yes. I've seen debates about it here and on Reddit. By combining perception ranged powers with sensory powers you could do some godlike things. For example Perception Ranged Damage, Subtle combined with Extended Vision 4, Vision Counters Concealment can allow you to kill someone on the other side of city by just looking at his side without you leaving any evidence.
Superfanboy
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:37 pm

Re: Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

Post by Superfanboy »

Harnos wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 11:15 am By combining perception ranged powers with sensory powers you could do some godlike things.
That's a good point, and the main issue to me why bother extending range instead of going with perception? It should be possible to have a character whose powers work at extreme range without making him ESPman or wasting a lot of points on Extended Range to get an inferior effect. The pricing on it, and on general to-hit bonuses, doesn't work out very well. It's too expensive when you can often just pay another extra to get a superior effect. They should probably be priced 1pp/+2, because there are so many ways to do it better and cheaper, from increased range to selective area effects that never miss.

This doesn't bother me because as the GM I have infinite points, but it does seem easy to choose what should be intuitive options and waste a lot of points on them, for some concepts, while similar and even more powerful abilities are cheaper.
FuzzyBoots
Posts: 2396
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Perception does have some inherent flaws. It can't have more ranks than PL. It can't crit. And you can't even try to hit what you can't see, so a cloud of smoke is enough to completely block a Perception power, while a ranged power can guess and take the penalty.
Superfanboy
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:37 pm

Re: Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

Post by Superfanboy »

FuzzyBoots wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:10 am Perception does have some inherent flaws. It can't have more ranks than PL. It can't crit. And you can't even try to hit what you can't see, so a cloud of smoke is enough to completely block a Perception power, while a ranged power can guess and take the penalty.
Good point but a judicious application of Sense powers and Remote Senses would still come in reasonably cheap.
Harnos
Posts: 499
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:03 am

Re: Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

Post by Harnos »

Superfanboy wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:45 pm
Harnos wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 11:15 am By combining perception ranged powers with sensory powers you could do some godlike things.
That's a good point, and the main issue to me why bother extending range instead of going with perception? It should be possible to have a character whose powers work at extreme range without making him ESPman or wasting a lot of points on Extended Range to get an inferior effect. The pricing on it, and on general to-hit bonuses, doesn't work out very well. It's too expensive when you can often just pay another extra to get a superior effect. They should probably be priced 1pp/+2, because there are so many ways to do it better and cheaper, from increased range to selective area effects that never miss.

This doesn't bother me because as the GM I have infinite points, but it does seem easy to choose what should be intuitive options and waste a lot of points on them, for some concepts, while similar and even more powerful abilities are cheaper.
You are right. Perception range is clearly superior to ranged attack unless multi-attack extra and few ranks of improved critical feat is used and I'm not sure these extras would balance the field.
User avatar
Davies
Posts: 5080
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

Post by Davies »

And so begins the line of thought that leads to the Bathtub Mentalist. Again, and again, and again.
"I'm sorry. I love you. I'm not sorry I love you."
Superfanboy
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:37 pm

Re: Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

Post by Superfanboy »

Davies wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:54 pm And so begins the line of thought that leads to the Bathtub Mentalist. Again, and again, and again.
Well if you had cosmic range senses and telekinetic powers of various effects you would be pretty effective. That's basically what most of the high tier cosmic powers are. They don't go anywhere, they're probably not in this Universe and they can still warp your history taking a 10. If you wanted to design Beyonder that's exactly what he would be. Super senses and non space dependent attacks probably are just objectively superior to lasers, if they were possible. Nobody would use guns when they have kill buttons.

And it's cheaper. It is very hard to convince someone to dump twenty points so they can shoot across the solar system when they can do that and more for ten. This is an area where combined traits are just way better than their individual pricing, and it punishes you for doing it in the fluff correct way. The theoretical alternative advantages usually remain theoretical and are easy to counter, again, for cheaper than the correct way of long range beam attacks. And as a logical matter even in real life perception attacks would be ridiculous, especially if they worked through cameras. They would be better than lasers.

Mental powers in general are just superior.

Heck you could describe a general sending a drone in as a perception based Ranged attack. The best way to fight is not to let them fight back.

Perhaps the problem is that comics give people these powers and they're idiots who use them wrong, so they get included in super RPGs and people who are not idiots use them right, unlike stupid superheroes. PC Superman would never lose. Never. It's always writing and the editors that keep people from becoming unstoppable in comics, or destroying the world, because they really should be by any coherent sense of scale of energy. It's just not practical to give someone that much power and expect it to work out where people just have fistfight and nobody ever wins. Someone would get crushed or the earth would blow up.

Superhero RPGs basically end up being Eleworlds and What If like, because actually competent use of super powers will gradually erode reality as we know it. Those alternate universe comics are simply more credible than the enduring retcon verses where a bathtub mentalist hasn't conquered the world already.
User avatar
Davies
Posts: 5080
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

Post by Davies »

Superfanboy wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:56 pm
Davies wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:54 pm And so begins the line of thought that leads to the Bathtub Mentalist. Again, and again, and again.
Well if you had cosmic range senses and telekinetic powers of various effects you would be pretty effective. That's basically what most of the high tier cosmic powers are. They don't go anywhere, they're probably not in this Universe and they can still warp your history taking a 10. If you wanted to design Beyonder that's exactly what he would be. Super senses and non space dependent attacks probably are just objectively superior to lasers, if they were possible. Nobody would use guns when they have kill buttons.
And yet I can easily envision a reason to do so.
"I'm sorry. I love you. I'm not sorry I love you."
Superfanboy
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:37 pm

Re: Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

Post by Superfanboy »

Davies wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:40 pm And yet I can easily envision a reason to do so.
I can envision a scenario in which a fork is superior. And occasionally contrived circumstances are fine in comics, but in most situations its exactly the sort of thing that will work on almost everyone, and allow you to eliminate the twenty guys with guns in their van on the way to your fortress. And a lot of villains don't really have good Defenses against it, in the comics they don't encounter such heroes for that reason; now I can certainly imagine a supervillain developing counter measures but it strains even comic credibility to think ESP detectors and sense based deflection powers are all that common, unless you're fighting psychics or aliens. So while it's possible to create counters and bizarre incentives to do virtually anything, most of the time being able to KO people who don't even know you exist is an instant fight stopper.
And if the bathtub psychic has a friend who's a super fast brick, that gets rid of most of the drawbacks. Team games encourage niche specialization, after all.

And this stuff does happen in the comics, writers just kind of avoid it because they don't know how to challenge that kind of (effective) use of exotic or extreme powers.

Remember when Phoenix was on the X-Men. That's basically what we're talking about.
User avatar
Davies
Posts: 5080
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

Post by Davies »

Uh huh, ignoring you.
"I'm sorry. I love you. I'm not sorry I love you."
Superfanboy
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:37 pm

Re: Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

Post by Superfanboy »

Davies wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:07 am Uh huh, ignoring you.
Good riddance, conceited twat. Just because you're a jaded bitch doesn't mean nobody else is allowed to talk about things you don't like. You should have fucked off in the first place instead of being a cunt for attention on a subject you didn't want to talk about.
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Increased Range vs. Enhanced Range

Post by Ares »

Davies wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:07 am Uh huh, ignoring you.
Superfanboy wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:46 am Good riddance, conceited twat. Just because you're a jaded bitch doesn't mean nobody else is allowed to talk about things you don't like. You should have fucked off in the first place instead of being a cunt for attention on a subject you didn't want to talk about.
Alright, both of you stop right now.

Superfanboy, I know you're new here, but one of the few rules here is no personal attacks. This is your first warning. You get three.

Davies, while not outright personal attacks, the one sentence responses come off as very passive aggressive and trollish. Don't respond to this thread any further.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
Post Reply