Heavy Hitters and Skillmonkeys (Monster Girl)

[Ares]

I see WW right up there with Supes and Capt Marvel but all 3 as way above Hulk, Thor, etc, WW would one-shot the thing.

Even in Marvel (to me), there are those above Thor, Hulk, Hercules such asThanos, Kurse, King Hyperion, Gladiator, and so many more.

I don't really see a huge difference between the DC top powerhouses and the Marvel ones. At this point they all have comparable strength feats and such, so to me they're all in the same tier of power.

[Goldar]

I see WW right up there with Supes and Capt Marvel but all 3 as way above Hulk, Thor, etc, WW would one-shot the thing.

Even in Marvel (to me), there are those above Thor, Hulk, Hercules such asThanos, Kurse, King Hyperion, Gladiator, and so many more.

I don't really see a huge difference between the DC top powerhouses and the Marvel ones. At this point they all have comparable strength feats and such, so to me they're all in the same tier of power.

Oh I do. I see the DC characters as way more powerful than the Marvel ones.

I see WW, Supes, Cap Marv as being way above the normal Marvel heavy hitters. For instance, Kurse is supposed to be 4X stronger than Thor. I think WW, Supes, etc are more on that level.

[Harnos]

So he started his existence in another universe and company like Captain Marvel, I see. I like him as exactly you described, a brick with full-fledged energy powers is a lovely concept. I agree on 90\100 ratio which corresponds to 18\20 However I don't understand why energy control powers should overcome physical brutes, elaborate please. Captain Atom can generate "red sun" radiation maybe but ı didn't get your overall reasoning. By the way comments are always more than welcome.

I'm not saying that Captain Atom WILL beat Superman using his energy blasts, just that Atom has a better chance of winning by relying more on his energy blasts than his fists.

My logic is that most superstrong types have comparable durability to their strength. Superman's heat vision is normally not as damaging as his Fists, but he can pump more of his solar reserves into his heat vision to up their intensity. However, while doing so can deal more damage, it also exhausts Superman more quickly. So it's usually more prudent for Superman to punch rather than shoot heat vision blasts that can exceed his punches in damage.

Meanwhile, my take is that while Captain Atom isn't as strong as Superman, his default energy blasts do more damage than Superman's default heat vision, and his max energy blasts can do more damage than Superman's max heat vision. So Captain Atom has a better chance against Superman using energy blasts than punches because his energy blasts deal damage comparable to Superman's punches. They also let Atom keep his distance.

However, energy blasts strong enough to hurt Superman takes more effort than throwing a punch, so Atom can't just spam those blasts without exhausting himself. So he has to mix up blasts with some melee attacks to stay in the fight long enough to have a hope of beating Superman. So what he tends to do is mix it up with Superman in melee and hit Clark with big energy blasts to really wear him down. And if he charges his fists with energy, his punches deal damage closer to Clark's. Unfortunately, since Atom is less durable than Clark, every time they trade punches Atom is going to take more damage than Clark takes, and thus will lose more often than win a slugfest.

Basically, Captain Marvel and Superman can trade punches and either has even odds of winning. Captain Atom trades punches with Superman and Atom probably going to lose every time, even with energy enhanced punches. So for Atom to have decent odds against Superman, Atom has to fight smart, dodge and weave, and use a combo of energy enhanced punches and very powerful energy blasts. If Atom does that well enough, he can potentially beat Clark a decent amount, though probably no more than 4 /10.

Now, if Atom does weakness exploitation like hit Superman with Red Sun or Kryptonite radiation, or just drain Clark's energy reserves, Atom should win significantly more often, but for some reason Atom either never uses those options or for some reason the effects are severely downplayed against Superman. Really, Atom should be a nightmare for Clark, but he's almost never portrayed that way.

I see your point now. I only remember Captain overpowering Clark with ease was in Injustice. Strange enough, Captain didn't use his energy control for that. He just plainly beat him with punches easily, which was weird and disappointing, then WW sneak attacked and killed him if I recall correctly. But that is an alternate universe story of course.

[Ken]

I see WW right up there with Supes and Capt Marvel but all 3 as way above Hulk, Thor, etc, WW would one-shot the thing.

Even in Marvel (to me), there are those above Thor, Hulk, Hercules such asThanos, Kurse, King Hyperion, Gladiator, and so many more.

I don't really see a huge difference between the DC top powerhouses and the Marvel ones. At this point they all have comparable strength feats and such, so to me they're all in the same tier of power.

Oh I do. I see the DC characters as way more powerful than the Marvel ones.

I see WW, Supes, Cap Marv as being way above the normal Marvel heavy hitters. For instance, Kurse is supposed to be 4X stronger than Thor. I think WW, Supes, etc are more on that level.

There is an illusion that has been built up that DC heroes are generally more powerful than Marvel. This stems from things like the silver-age Superman sneezing out stars. But also because of things like Hank Pym shrinking to the size of an ant where Ray Palmer can shrink down to 'atomic size'. Flash can reach super-luminal speeds; Quicksilver can hit 150 mph. OHOTMU made it worse by publishing limits that no one followed. We would see Hercules towing Manhattan and Hulk holding up mountain ranges. Stanley Stewart, the Whizzer of Earth-712, was said to be able to exceed the speed of sound, to the point that he considered calling himself the Boomer. That's over 770 mph. Yet OHOTMU listed poor Stanley's speed at 175 mph.

The truth is, though, that comics aren't written by people with physics degrees. Their limits are story dependent, and can vary. The main difference is that DC leans into this, and doesn't try to say what the heroes limits are. Marvel does try to say their heroes have more limits, but then they regularly break them.

[Goldar]

I don't really see a huge difference between the DC top powerhouses and the Marvel ones. At this point they all have comparable strength feats and such, so to me they're all in the same tier of power.

Oh I do. I see the DC characters as way more powerful than the Marvel ones.

I see WW, Supes, Cap Marv as being way above the normal Marvel heavy hitters. For instance, Kurse is supposed to be 4X stronger than Thor. I think WW, Supes, etc are more on that level.

There is an illusion that has been built up that DC heroes are generally more powerful than Marvel. This stems from things like the silver-age Superman sneezing out stars. But also because of things like Hank Pym shrinking to the size of an ant where Ray Palmer can shrink down to 'atomic size'. Flash can reach super-luminal speeds; Quicksilver can hit 150 mph. OHOTMU made it worse by publishing limits that no one followed. We would see Hercules towing Manhattan and Hulk holding up mountain ranges. Stanley Stewart, the Whizzer of Earth-712, was said to be able to exceed the speed of sound, to the point that he considered calling himself the Boomer. That's over 770 mph. Yet OHOTMU listed poor Stanley's speed at 175 mph.

The truth is, though, that comics aren't written by people with physics degrees. Their limits are story dependent, and can vary. The main difference is that DC leans into this, and doesn't try to say what the heroes limits are. Marvel does try to say their heroes have more limits, but then they regularly break them.

This is a good summation, but even with Stanley running at 770 mph and Pietro at Mach 10 (7700 mph), Flash and company still far outpace them.

Hercules only did that massive swim once and WW is "stronger than Hercules". The Hulk holding up mountains is only due to the madder he gets thing, putting him at his maximum in order to do the feat.

DC has long been known to have stronger/more powerful characters---which children reading comics know now and have for decades--- which is why old stan lee decided to make Marvel characters more "real' and "with human-type qualities and limitations". Instead of out-powering the Distinguished Competition, he wanted fans to feel his characters were more relatable (while being notably slower, weaker, less powerful) and more real.

[Harnos]

I see WW right up there with Supes and Capt Marvel but all 3 as way above Hulk, Thor, etc, WW would one-shot the thing.

Even in Marvel (to me), there are those above Thor, Hulk, Hercules such asThanos, Kurse, King Hyperion, Gladiator, and so many more.

I don't really see a huge difference between the DC top powerhouses and the Marvel ones. At this point they all have comparable strength feats and such, so to me they're all in the same tier of power.

Oh I do. I see the DC characters as way more powerful than the Marvel ones.

I see WW, Supes, Cap Marv as being way above the normal Marvel heavy hitters. For instance, Kurse is supposed to be 4X stronger than Thor. I think WW, Supes, etc are more on that level.

I don't see a huge difference though I see some. Thor and Hulk did fair share of tectonic plate holding, moon shattering etc. I will still place them lower than Superman but 1 level of difference between comparable characters seem enough for me. Superman is a PL 16, so Thor would be a PL 15 and Hulk a PL 14-15. I guess i would place Sentry at PL 16 and Hyperion and Gladiator at 14-15.

[Goldar]

I don't really see a huge difference between the DC top powerhouses and the Marvel ones. At this point they all have comparable strength feats and such, so to me they're all in the same tier of power.

Oh I do. I see the DC characters as way more powerful than the Marvel ones.

I see WW, Supes, Cap Marv as being way above the normal Marvel heavy hitters. For instance, Kurse is supposed to be 4X stronger than Thor. I think WW, Supes, etc are more on that level.

I don't see a huge difference though I see some. Thor and Hulk did fair share of tectonic plate holding, moon shattering etc. I will still place them lower than Superman but 1 level of difference between comparable characters seem enough for me. Superman is a PL 16, so Thor would be a PL 15 and Hulk a PL 14-15. I guess i would place Sentry at PL 16 and Hyperion and Gladiator at 14-15.

Oh, my mistake! I thought you were making the characters with high stats (higher than what we have seen before) vs just listing those in the "heavy hitter" category.

[Harnos]

Oh I do. I see the DC characters as way more powerful than the Marvel ones.

I see WW, Supes, Cap Marv as being way above the normal Marvel heavy hitters. For instance, Kurse is supposed to be 4X stronger than Thor. I think WW, Supes, etc are more on that level.

I don't see a huge difference though I see some. Thor and Hulk did fair share of tectonic plate holding, moon shattering etc. I will still place them lower than Superman but 1 level of difference between comparable characters seem enough for me. Superman is a PL 16, so Thor would be a PL 15 and Hulk a PL 14-15. I guess i would place Sentry at PL 16 and Hyperion and Gladiator at 14-15.

Oh, my mistake! I thought you were making the characters with high stats (higher than what we have seen before) vs just listing those in the "heavy hitter" category.

Well, both are kind of true. The main reasoning for the topic title is the latter. However, I prefer to use higher power levels and stats, especially for the world destroyer threats like Thanos or Doomsday. I like Dc heroes little bit stronger than official builds too.

[RainOnTheSun]

My personal experience as mostly a Marvel reader is that their ultrapowerful characters tend to be more of the "I win" variety. That is, they don't have powers that hit harder or run faster, they have reality-altering powers that let them arbitrarily declare victory. X traits, in M&M terms.

[Harnos]

Silver Surfer PL 15 (304)
Strength 12/18 Stamina 15 Fighting 8
Agility 4 Dexterity 4
Intellect 4 Awareness 6 Presence 2

Powers:
Silver Skin: Protection 3, Impervious Toughness 10 (23)
Cosmic Being: Immunity 14 (Life Support, Sleep, Aging, Fatigue, Gravity and Heat of Stars), Movement: Environmental Adaptation (Space) (21)
Space Surfboard: Flight 16 (Platform) (125.000 MPH) (20)
Space Travel 3, Platform
Universal Speaker: Comprehend 3 (Languages) (6)
Cosmic Awarenes: Senses 12 (Cosmic Awareness(Acute), Extended Vision 3, Detect Energy 2- Extended 3, Direction Sense,
Distance Sense) (12)

Power Cosmic: Ranged Damage 19, Multi-attack, Accurate 2, Extended Range 5 (18 km-12 Miles), Variable 2 (Any Energy) [66 pp array] (75)

• Line Blast; Ranged Damage 15, Line Area 2 (250 ft)

• Burst Blast; Ranged Damage 15, Burst Area 2 (60 ft)

• Cone Blast: Ranged Damage 15, Cone Area 1 (60 ft), Selective

• Cosmic Strength: Enhanced Strength 6, Enhanced Strength 4, Limited to Lifting (100.000 tons)

• Molecular Control: Transform 10, Anything to Anything Else, Ranged, Continous, Distracting, Accurate 2 (800 lbs-400 kg)

• Healing 16, Ranged, Restorative, Stabilize, Feature 1;; Regrowth

• Senses 47 (Detect Energy 2; Acute, Extended Range 20, Tracking, Detect Life 2; Extended Range 20, Tracking)

• Nullify Energy Effects 19, Broad, Accurate 2

• Variable 9, Move Action

Advantages:
Diehard, Fearless, Extraordinary Effort, Evasion, Favored Environment (Space), Improved Aim, Move-by Action, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 3, Takedown 2

Skills: 20 ranks
Acrobatics 4/8
Athletics
Close Combat:
Deception
Expertise: Science and Philosophy 5/9
Expertise: Cosmic Knowledge 8/12
Insight
Intimidation
Investigation
Perception 3/9
Persuasion
Ranged Combat:
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Technology
Treatment
Vehicles

Defenses:
Dodge 12 Parry 9 Toughness 18
Fortitude 15 Will 13

Offense:
Initiative
Unarmed 8 , Damage 12/18
Power Cosmic 11, Damage 19 or other effects
Area Effects, Damage 15

Abilities 110 +Defenses 16 + Powers 155 + Advantages 13 + Skills 10 = 304 pp

Complications:
Motivation (Guilt): As herald of Galactus, Silver Surfer caused the destruction of countless species and feels tremendous guilt because of it.
Motivation (Honor): Norrin Radd is a noble soul who strives to do the right thing.
Relationship (Shalla-Bal): Silver Surfer left his woman behind to save his people.
Relationship (Galactus): He still interacts with his former master on occasion and they still have some respect for each other.
Enemy (Mephisto, Thanos): He has really mighty enemies who want to corrupt, torment or destroy him.

I love Silver Surfer. He caught my attention in Fantastic Four cartoon as a lonely character. When I began to read his stories in high school, his depressive attitude and ever-questioning of his place made me feel empathy for him. He is till one of my favourite heroes. My favourite story is Parables, which has a comprehensive and very realistic approach to human society and Galactus' interaction with it.

Silver Surfer is a solid PL 15 on attack. He is accurate for an energy projector; I don't remember him missing his target though I haven't read a story where he fought against really agile characters, so I left Accurate Attack out of the build. With Extra Effort he can reach the "cosmic" rank of 20 and destroy spaceships with power attacks. Surfboard just lets him channel his power so it is not a device. He has hit targets in orbit more than one time, so I gave him a satisfiying range. His toughness is top level, close to Thor or Hulk. He doesn't reach his level caps on melee combat but can be a dangerous opponet for many nonetheless. He can push beyond his level cap in space with Favored Environment. Overall he can take down superhuman teams, spaceship armadas and alien armies alone. Power Cosmic grants him incredible control over matter and energy, so put Variable effect as an alternate power.

[Ken]

Oh I do. I see the DC characters as way more powerful than the Marvel ones.

I see WW, Supes, Cap Marv as being way above the normal Marvel heavy hitters. For instance, Kurse is supposed to be 4X stronger than Thor. I think WW, Supes, etc are more on that level.[/i][/b]

I don't see a huge difference though I see some. Thor and Hulk did fair share of tectonic plate holding, moon shattering etc. I will still place them lower than Superman but 1 level of difference between comparable characters seem enough for me. Superman is a PL 16, so Thor would be a PL 15 and Hulk a PL 14-15. I guess i would place Sentry at PL 16 and Hyperion and Gladiator at 14-15.

Oh, my mistake! I thought you were making the characters with high stats (higher than what we have seen before) vs just listing those in the "heavy hitter" category.

Goldar, buddy, you confuse me? First you say that you see Diana, Clark, and Billy "way above the normal Marvel hitters", but then when the thread owner indicates that he's going to be building the "normal heavy hitters" from Marvel at a level below Clark, Billy, and Diana, you act disappointed.

[Goldar]

I don't see a huge difference though I see some. Thor and Hulk did fair share of tectonic plate holding, moon shattering etc. I will still place them lower than Superman but 1 level of difference between comparable characters seem enough for me. Superman is a PL 16, so Thor would be a PL 15 and Hulk a PL 14-15. I guess i would place Sentry at PL 16 and Hyperion and Gladiator at 14-15.

Oh, my mistake! I thought you were making the characters with high stats (higher than what we have seen before) vs just listing those in the "heavy hitter" category.

Goldar, buddy, you confuse me? First you say that you see Diana, Clark, and Billy "way above the normal Marvel hitters", but then when the thread owner indicates that he's going to be building the "normal heavy hitters" from Marvel at a level below Clark, Billy, and Diana, you act disappointed.

LOL. Sorry Ken my friend. I was confused too. When Hamos stated that the DC guys/gal were not much different/does not see ah huge difference from the Marvel rankings and then gave examples, I felt confused and disappointed.

I thought the thread was gonna increase anyone listed here way up from what we have previously seen. I still see the DC heavies much higher, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. I don;t wanna throw off the vibe here.

Sorry for the confusions everyone. I'll go now.

[Harnos]

Oh, my mistake! I thought you were making the characters with high stats (higher than what we have seen before) vs just listing those in the "heavy hitter" category.

Goldar, buddy, you confuse me? First you say that you see Diana, Clark, and Billy "way above the normal Marvel hitters", but then when the thread owner indicates that he's going to be building the "normal heavy hitters" from Marvel at a level below Clark, Billy, and Diana, you act disappointed.

LOL. Sorry Ken my friend. I was confused too. When Hamos stated that the DC guys/gal were not much different/does not see ah huge difference from the Marvel rankings and then gave examples, I felt confused and disappointed.

I thought the thread was gonna increase anyone listed here way up from what we have previously seen. I still see the DC heavies much higher, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. I don;t wanna throw off the vibe here.

Sorry for the confusions everyone. I'll go now.

Sorry to disappoint you mate. I will still use high stats for Marvel guys though. Hulk will go beyond 20 str for example and Thor will have 19 toughness, these are higher values than Jab or Thorapocalypse has used so far.

[M4C8]

While I agree that Marvel is (or was) more grounded so the characters weren't as ridiculously high in their power levels I do believe that there are a few Marvel characters that are up there alongside Superman and therefore a match for him (Thor, Hulk, Hercules, Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange etc.), now obviously I'm not saying they would win every time just that a win is possible, it would definitely depend on the situation on the day.
Unfortunately because of the supposedly lower level of Marvel these characters are rarely shown at their top levels. Hercules for example should be one of the most physically powerful heroes as well as one of, if not 'the' greatest warrior on Earth yet he's almost always been stripped of much of his power or completely depowered somehow. Honestly I genuinely believe those top level heroes such as Herc and Thor would beat Wonder Woman (or at least take the majority of fights). Marvel's Hercules at his full 'normal baseline' power should be a match for almost anyone given his power level, skill level and vast experience, though he'd have to take a fight seriously which is also a rarity.

[Harnos]

Thor PL 15 (283)
Strength 18 Stamina 16 Fighting 10
Agility 3 Dexterity 4
Intellect 1 Awareness 3 Presence 5

Powers:
Mightiest of the Gods: Enhanced Strength 4, Limited to Lifting (100.000 tons) (4)
Asgardian Resilience:
Protection 2, Impervious Toughness 10 (32)
Regeneration 2 (Once every 5 rounds)
Immunity 4 (Aging, Disease, Heat, Cold)
Immunity 6 (Poison, Suffocation, Radiation, Pressure, Vacuum), Limited to Half-effect
Enhanced Advantages (Diehard, Great Endurance)

Allspeak: Comprehend 3 (Speak, Understand, Be Understood in All Languages) (6)

Mjolnir: Total 108 Points,Easily Removeable (66)

Flight 4 (250 ft-32 MPH)
Feature 2 (Indestructibe, Restricted to Worthy)
Immunity 2 (Earthly Weather), Movement 1 (Environmental Adaptation: Storms and Strong Winds)
Feature 2 (Thor and his equipment is unaffected by weather, Weather reflects his mood)
Call Storms: Environment 6 (Visibility 2, Impede Movement 2), Selective (1800 ft) (46)

Mjolnir's Might [ 50 pp array] (62)

• Hammer Strike: Strength-based Damage 2

• Hammer Throw: Strength-based Damage 1, Ranged Modifier on Strength-based Damage 19, Line Area 1 (120 ft) on Strength-based Damage 15

• Hammer Spin: Burst Area 1 (30 ft) on Strength-based Damage 15

• Call Lightning : Ranged Damage 16, Multi-attack, Indirect 2

• Chain Lightning: Ranged Damage 15, Burst Area 1 (30 ft)

• Line of Lightning: Ranged Damage 15, Line Area 1 (120 ft)

• Groundstrike: Burst Area 2 (60 ft) Affliction 15 (Resisted by Dodge, Overcome by Fortitude; Dazed and Vulnerable, Stunned and Prone)
  Extra Condition, Limited Degree, Instant Recovery, Limited to targets on the ground, linked with Close Damage 15, Burst Area 2 (60 ft),
  Limited to targets on the ground

• Deflect 11

• Enhanced Flight 8 (8.000 MPH), Movement 3; Space Travel 3

• Environment 13 (Visibility 2, Impede Movement 2), Selective (32 Miles)

• Movement 3; Dimensional Travel, Portal

• Wind Blast: Move Object 10, Cone Area 4 (500 ft), Limited to Pushing Away

• Hurricane: Move Object 10, Damaging, Burst Area 3 (120 ft), Limited to Circular Movement

Advantages:
All-out Attack, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 6, Takedown 2, Withstand Damage 2 (+5 Toughness, -5 Dodge/Parry)
Attractive, Benefit 3 (Asgardian Prince), Extraordinary Effort, Fearless, Improved Hold, Improved Initiative 2, Improved Smash, Ultimate Effort (Strength Checks)
Diehard, Great Endurance

Skills: 34 ranks
Acrobatics
Athletics 3/20
Close Combat:
Deception
Expertise: Asgardian Lore 8/9
Expertise: Magic 4/5
Insight 4/7
Intimidation 12/17
Investigation
Perception 2/5
Persuasion 1/6
Ranged Combat:
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Technology
Treatment
Vehicles

Defenses:
Dodge 9 Parry 10 Toughness 18
Fortitude 16 Will 12

Offense:
Initiative 11
Unarmed 10, Damage 18
Mjolnir Strike 10, Damage 20
Mjolnir Throw 10, Damage 19
Call Lightning 10 (Multiattack), Damage 16
Throwing 10, Damage 18

Abilities 120 + Defenses 15 + Powers 108 + Advantages 23 + Skills 17 = 283 pp

Complications:
Motivation (Responsibility): Thor always fights to protect the people of Asgard and Midgard.
Motivation (Honor): He never lies, cheats or run away from battle.
Enemies: Loki, Hela, Jormungadr and many others.
Rivalry: Thor has a friendry rivalry with Hercules and Hulk since they are the other strongest beings on Earth
Relationship: With Jane Foster, Sif and his family, sometimes including Loki.
Power Loss: Thor loses his power when he lose contact with Mjolnir for more than a minute and turn into his Donald Blake form. That depends on his incarnation though.

Thor is one of the most famous heavy hitters of Marvel along with Hulk. He is quite the masculine ideal, brave, honest and noble. He represents the fantasy side of the Marvel, though his people seem to have an ancient astronaut touch too.

I made him a PL 15, one level lower than Superman. His damage output and durability is as same as Captain Marvel. He is PL 14 on defense since he is not that agile or focused on protecting himself. However 19 toughness is quite high and he can endure lots of punishment. I gave him flight and weather control outside his main Mjolnir array, because he should be able to fly and small-scale weather manipulation while fighting at full force. Having an epic device made him cheaper for his abilities. He also has some "symbolic powers", for example it is stated that he has superhuman reflexes and healing factor. I didn't witness these powers myself but I gave them in very small dosages. his flight speed is just below 13 which I consider DC top paragon level. Overall he can hold his ground against DC heavy hitters I built and there are very few Marvel guys that can challenge him.

By the way, his first comics, Journey into the Mystery was fun to read with all cold war and sexuality censor antics. I must also add that I hated stupid and over-talkative Thor of late MCU. I met him in Fantastic Four and Hulk animations in the early 2000's and I liked him very much. PS; there might be typos due to alcohol.