Heavy Hitters and Skillmonkeys (Atom Eve, Rex Splode)

[RainOnTheSun]

On the one hand, Dr. Destroyer's 30DC Destroyer-Beam is absurdly powerful compared to a "default" hero's 12DC attacks. On the other hand, a tank gun is a 24DC attack, and there's a lot of tanks in the world. So he's powerful, yeah, but more in comparison to rest of the superhero world than the "real" world. It's mostly strange that someone like Firewing or Grond isn't more powerful than him.

[catsi563]

Whats interesting is that both Firewing and Grond are two of the beings in Champs that can actually go toe to toe with the Doc and come out ahead in a straight up fight

[greycrusader]

I loved me some CHAMPIONS back in the day, but yes, running combats with high-powered supers in that system could turn into a slog, simply counting dice pips, factoring in advantages such as Penetrating, then subtracting defenses, taking into account the damage reduction power, recoveries, etc,, while high-Speed or really high Recovery/Regeneration characters could end up monopolizing the fights. I mean, not all systems do everything equally well; M&M is way better at doing four-color than street-level or grimdark, without a decent amount of rules jiggering.

Stripping Dr. Destroyers of the traits which would have made him a Victor Von Doom clone unfortunately rendered him very one-dimensional, because those traits weren't replaced with anything, really-Albert Zerstoiten wasn't even actually a Nazi, so he couldn't serve as a Red Skull expy either. Ramping up his power levels didn't make him more interesting. CHAMPIONS had a bit of a problem with this, as they did comic book analogues, but they were never as interesting as the originals; Grond is another example, as he's basically the Hulk except without the alter-ego or the childlike pathos.

And yeah, Catsi-scale was kind of wonky in the game, with military heavy weapons pretty much outstripping all but the most powerful supers, and even then almost no one aside from the cosmic-level guys could actually roll over armies.

All my best.

[catsi563]

Ill admit ir could ger a bit crazy in the highend espeically after i mad emy character rolling rhunder in HERO system and he in his usual fashion prcoeeded to steam roll every brick in the game starting with ogre and ending with a knocdown dragout katie bar the door its a pier 6-7 -8-9 brawl with grond that nearly leveled half of a city

Still I stand by the fact that it can handle highend stuff no problem just the math that gets crazy and the dice

[Harnos]

This sounds bad. I read that some people also say Champions doesn't work well for JL level of power, must be a bad combo.

Its not true Champions/HERO is just as good as M&M for high end campaigns as it is for street level.

the trick is that the math gets a bit thicker the deeper into the high end stuff you go too many people dont get that part and you end up with planet man or with a guy with the intellect of a goldfish and the strength to punch the hulk to pluto

With all do respect, no Champions doesn't work as well as M&M for high end campaigns. Trust me. As someone who ran a high-end Champions game for 23 years and then converted around 1000 characters from Champions to M&M, when M&M 3 came out I'm quite certain of this.

You see, in M&M everything can be resolved with 1d20. The physical die may have to be passed around the room, and its easier if each player has his own die, but that's it. The biggest hassle for a high powered game is one may want a Damage Resistance Matrix that goes further than 20 ranks.

In Champions, in a higher powered game is invariably slower than a low-powered game. Damage results are rolled with a variable number of dice. Counting the damage for a 6d6 attack isn't that much faster than it is for an 8d6 attack. But counting the damage for a 8d6 attack is considerably faster than counting for a 16d6 attack. And then there's the extra algebra of subtracting the damage from the physical or energy defense, and then modifying one's Stun score. And for good or ill, subtracting 57 STUN damage from a 33 PD, and then subtracting the 24 STUN that gets through from the your character's current 46 STUN shouldn't be any harder than 33 STUN stun from a 19 PD and subtracting that 14 STUN from your character's 27 STUN. It's a beautiful idea that doesn't stand up to a diverse player group. Sure, those of us who minored in Mathematics can count the extra dice and can do the damage algebra in our heads. Great. The player who never went to college, though? What about her? Or what if the player has math anxiety? Doing the counting and the algebra takes that person longer. And the bigger the numbers, the longer it takes.

And then there's the lovely SPEED score, and how it affects game play. Heaven help you if you have someone bad at math who wants to play a speedster.

Champions can work with higher level characters, but it does do lower level characters better.

Mutants & Masterminds, at least the 3rd edition, doesn't have the same hang-ups. A 17 rank damage attack vs a 16 rank toughness is EXACTLY the same die-roll wise as a 7 rank damage attack and 6 rank toughness. The die rolls just scale better.

That sounds complicated. I've seen players who have a hard time adding up two different double digit numbers. I can imagine Champions combat taking too long.

I like that about M&M, you don't have to roll too many dices, just two d20s solve the action.

[Harnos]

Dr. Destroyer is perhaps the most "on the nose" analogue in Champions, with only "Grond is the Incredible Hulk" being a close second. Destroyer is literally Dr. Doom in a world where almost no heroes reach the Superman / Thor tiers of power. Both are extreme geniuses with powerful suits of armor with capes, arrogant, eloquent and with a desire for power, with at least the appearance of nobility, and have armies of fanatically loyal minions at their back and call.

If anything, it's interesting how they tried to differentiate Destroyer from Doom by taking things AWAY from Destroyer. Destroyer has no access to magic, no nation of his own and no actual code of honor. He is in all ways more selfish and evil than Doom, and thus less complex a character. But where Doom is a character in an ongoing comic universe, Destroyer is largely there to be a threat for players to punch. 5th edition gave him a solid look and some real presence as the villain that has had the most impact on the world, but he benefits largely from the lower PLs of Champions heroes.

In terms of looks and abilities, he's kind of a hybrid of Dr. Doom and Cobra Commander, which is a fun enough hybrid type that I've used it myself.

That aspect of the Champions didn't catch my attention. Indeed, setting's prominent heroes (Champions) seem to be around PL 10. I agree that he is less interesting than Doom. At least they could give him some family members or close friends.

On the one hand, Dr. Destroyer's 30DC Destroyer-Beam is absurdly powerful compared to a "default" hero's 12DC attacks. On the other hand, a tank gun is a 24DC attack, and there's a lot of tanks in the world. So he's powerful, yeah, but more in comparison to rest of the superhero world than the "real" world. It's mostly strange that someone like Firewing or Grond isn't more powerful than him.

That is horrible. A simple tank doing more damage than most master villains is pretty much anti-genre, robbing it's of super-powerful part.

Whats interesting is that both Firewing and Grond are two of the beings in Champs that can actually go toe to toe with the Doc and come out ahead in a straight up fight

I agree. I don't like it when power armor types have more brute power than high end genetic based superhumans and cosmic ones. I lowered Overshadow to PL 14 for that reason.

[Ares]

Many moons ago, there was an official game line crossover between Champions and Silver Age Sentinels called Reality Storm, where the Champions and Guard teamed up against Dr. Destroyer and Kreuzritter. This included game line write ups of the characters in the opposite system, so we got to see what Sentinel, the Guard's Superman analogy, looked like in Champions terms. He was . . . quite a bit more powerful than the average Champion, to say the least. I want to say he had a higher Str score than Grond.

[catsi563]

Many moons ago, there was an official game line crossover between Champions and Silver Age Sentinels called Reality Storm, where the Champions and Guard teamed up against Dr. Destroyer and Kreuzritter. This included game line write ups of the characters in the opposite system, so we got to see what Sentinel, the Guard's Superman analogy, looked like in Champions terms. He was . . . quite a bit more powerful than the average Champion, to say the least. I want to say he had a higher Str score than Grond.

He did actually 95-gronds 90 and thats in both 4th and 5th ed versions

which via my M&M conversions would put Grond at a whopping 18 str and Sentinel at a 19

[Ken]

Many moons ago, there was an official game line crossover between Champions and Silver Age Sentinels called Reality Storm, where the Champions and Guard teamed up against Dr. Destroyer and Kreuzritter. This included game line write ups of the characters in the opposite system, so we got to see what Sentinel, the Guard's Superman analogy, looked like in Champions terms. He was . . . quite a bit more powerful than the average Champion, to say the least. I want to say he had a higher Str score than Grond.

Yup. Sentinel had a 95 STR when converted to Champions. Grond has been a 90 STR in every edition of Champions from 1st-through-5th*. That's the equivalent of a 19 STR and 18 STR in M&M3.

Both still less powerful then a Champions tank gun.

On the one hand, Dr. Destroyer's 30DC Destroyer-Beam is absurdly powerful compared to a "default" hero's 12DC attacks. On the other hand, a tank gun is a 24DC attack, and there's a lot of tanks in the world. So he's powerful, yeah, but more in comparison to rest of the superhero world than the "real" world. It's mostly strange that someone like Firewing or Grond isn't more powerful than him.

That is horrible. A simple tank doing more damage than most master villains is pretty much anti-genre, robbing it's of super-powerful part.

* Technically, in Fuzion, the Champions / R. Talsorian hybrid system that came out after 4th and before 5th, Grond had an 18 STR, but Fuzion was only barely Champions, and it was still just the 90 STR / 5.

[Harnos]

I loved me some CHAMPIONS back in the day, but yes, running combats with high-powered supers in that system could turn into a slog, simply counting dice pips, factoring in advantages such as Penetrating, then subtracting defenses, taking into account the damage reduction power, recoveries, etc,, while high-Speed or really high Recovery/Regeneration characters could end up monopolizing the fights. I mean, not all systems do everything equally well; M&M is way better at doing four-color than street-level or grimdark, without a decent amount of rules jiggering.

Stripping Dr. Destroyers of the traits which would have made him a Victor Von Doom clone unfortunately rendered him very one-dimensional, because those traits weren't replaced with anything, really-Albert Zerstoiten wasn't even actually a Nazi, so he couldn't serve as a Red Skull expy either. Ramping up his power levels didn't make him more interesting. CHAMPIONS had a bit of a problem with this, as they did comic book analogues, but they were never as interesting as the originals; Grond is another example, as he's basically the Hulk except without the alter-ego or the childlike pathos.

And yeah, Catsi-scale was kind of wonky in the game, with military heavy weapons pretty much outstripping all but the most powerful supers, and even then almost no one aside from the cosmic-level guys could actually roll over armies.

All my best.

I agree. Dr. Destroyer feels like a generic NPC archetype.

[catsi563]

That is horrible. A simple tank doing more damage than most master villains is pretty much anti-genre, robbing it's of super-powerful part.

So Ive gone through my 4tth and 5th ed collection and i cant see where this is a thing. what am I missing here?

Not saying its impossible mind you i can do the same thing in M&M but i dont see this anywhere and i have ultimate vehicles

[Davies]

That is horrible. A simple tank doing more damage than most master villains is pretty much anti-genre, robbing it's of super-powerful part.

So Ive gone through my 4tth and 5th ed collection and i cant see where this is a thing. what am I missing here?

The HS Vehicle Sourcebook assigns a T-80 MBT's main gun an 8D6 RKA, and its Stinger ATGW a 9D6 RKA.

[catsi563]

That is horrible. A simple tank doing more damage than most master villains is pretty much anti-genre, robbing it's of super-powerful part.

So Ive gone through my 4tth and 5th ed collection and i cant see where this is a thing. what am I missing here?

The HS Vehicle Sourcebook assigns a T-80 MBT's main gun an 8D6 RKA, and its Stinger ATGW a 9D6 RKA.

Granted yeah which sounds about right but im looking at gravitar who can giggle snort a shot from one of those while simultaneously tossing it into orbit along with the other 9 tanks in the squadron.

Average tank in M&M does ranged damage 10 with burst area 6

[Harnos]

That is horrible. A simple tank doing more damage than most master villains is pretty much anti-genre, robbing it's of super-powerful part.

So Ive gone through my 4tth and 5th ed collection and i cant see where this is a thing. what am I missing here?

Not saying its impossible mind you i can do the same thing in M&M but i dont see this anywhere and i have ultimate vehicles

I wrote this as answer to another comment. I didn't see a source about this firsthand myself.

[RainOnTheSun]

I could certainly be wrong, but it's been my understanding that in Hero System one die of Killing damage is equivalent to three dice of Normal damage in price and effect.