Heavy Hitters and Skillmonkeys (Fulgrim, Carnage, Batman)

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Davies
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters (PL 18 Darkseid, PL 17 Doomsday, Ultraman)

Post by Davies »

Goldar wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:11 pm See, that is the intriguing part for me, lol....just what could it be that he did???!?
In a world that worships evil, the things that people are most likely to fear being exposed ... are good deeds.

Well, that's probably a bit optimistic. It's much more likely that they are just things that make him look weak.
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters (PL 18 Darkseid, PL 17 Doomsday, Ultraman)

Post by Goldar »

Davies wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:20 pm
Goldar wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:11 pm See, that is the intriguing part for me, lol....just what could it be that he did???!?
In a world that worships evil, the things that people are most likely to fear being exposed ... are good deeds.

Well, that's probably a bit optimistic. It's much more likely that they are just things that make him look weak.
Hahaha, yes, true, because the bad and evil things Ultraman is proud of (not just because he is a bad guy, but don't forget, it's that E-3 Reverse Logic thingie lol), so it must be some good deeds. He helped an old man cross the street and saved a kitty stranded in a tree.
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters (PL 18 Darkseid, PL 17 Doomsday, Ultraman)

Post by Harnos »

Goldar wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:14 pm Very nice Ultraman and pic too!

I also see it that he would have alternating qualities with Superman that slightly shift their skills/advantages.

But since Ultraman does not hold back like Supes (all-out attack) wouldn't that make him more dangerous?

I also like the usage of "Ultra" abilities, 'cause that's what they are and what he calls them too!
Thanks. The combination of All-out Attack, Power Attack and Startle would make him a deadly attacker. I'm not that experienced with M&M or run statistical analysis, but I believe it might close the one level gap between him and Supes.
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters (PL 18 Darkseid, PL 17 Doomsday, Ultraman)

Post by Harnos »

This "secret good deed" theory sounds cool. Maybe it is something that demonstrates a vulnerability, such as being more likely to trust a demographic group or something irrational done for love. If you are a violent and merciless dictator, you wouldn't want people to know that you were simping for an emo girl or have a soft side against old ladies.
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters (PL 18 Darkseid, PL 17 Doomsday, Ultraman)

Post by Harnos »

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Superwoman PL 15
Strength 16 Stamina 15 Fighting 12
Agility 8 Dexterity 5
Intellect 2 Awareness 6 Presence 5


Powers:
Super-Speed: Flight 15 (64.000 MPH), Subtle (43)
Enhanced Advantages: Improved Initiative 6, Evasion 1, Move-by Action, Takedown 2
Alternate Effect of Agility Skill Bonuses: Quickness 8 (1 pp)
Strength of Titans: Enhanced Strength 5, Limited to Lifting (50.000 tons) (5)
Immortal: Immunity 1 (Aging) (1)
Magical Sword: Strength-based Damage 2, Easily Removable (1)
Amazonian Shield: Enhanced Dodge 2, Parry 2 (8)
Enhanced Advantage 2; Improved Defense, Defensive Attack, Withstand Damage 2 (+5 Toughness, -5 Dodge/Parry)
Feature 2 (Indestructible), Easily Removable
Heat Vision: Ranged Damage 14, Accurate 2, Precise 1 (31)
Magic Lasso: Move Object 16, Linked to Ranged Affliction 16 (Resisted and Overcome by Will; Impaired Will, Compelled), Limited to Lowering the Inhibitions, Limited Degree, Easily Removable (22)


Advantages: 20
Accurate Attack, All-out Attack, Defensive Attack, Power Attack, Improved Defense, Improved Critical 1 (Sword), Ranged Attack 3
Improved Initiative 5, Evasion 1, Move-by Action, Takedown 2, Diehard, Great Endurance, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip
Attractive, Benefit 5 (CSA Member), Connected, Fearless, Extraordinary Effort

Skills: 66 ranks
Acrobatics 5/13
Athletics 4/20
Close Combat: Unarmed 1/13
Deception 8/13 (15 with Attractive)
Expertise: History and Mythology 12/14
Expertise: Military 8/10
Insight 6/12
Intimidation 9/14
Investigation
Perception 4/10
Persuasion 6/11 (13 with Attractive)
Ranged Combat: Throwing 3/11
Sleight of Hand
Stealth 1/9
Technology
Treatment
Vehicles 2/7

Defenses:
Dodge 13\15 Parry 13\15 Toughness 15 (Impervious to 6 or less)
Fortitude 15 Will 13

Offense:
Initiative +32
Unarmed 13, Damage 16
Sword 12, Damage 18
Heat Vision 12, Damage 14
Throwing 11, Damage 16

Abilities 138 +Defenses 13 + Powers 111 + Advantages 20 + Skills 33 = 315 pp

Complications:
Motivation: She is a thrill seeker who will “try anything once.”
Relationships: Superwoman maintains a passionate but erratic romance with Owlman and a dysfunctional marriage to Ultraman.

Her parallel universe counterpart is surprisingly more expensive than Wonder Woman due to her heat vision and increased social skills. She totally lacks impervious toughness, strange for a being of such power. Superwoman also has more feats due to her position in the Crime Syndicate. By the way, I noticed that I forgot to add Magic Lasso in the Wonder Woman build. :shock:
Last edited by Harnos on Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Goldar
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters (PL 18 Darkseid, PL 17 Doomsday, Ultraman)

Post by Goldar »

So this is the cartoon version of Superwoman?

Are you going to do a comics version (some give her amazonium bracelets) and magic lasso?
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters (PL 18 Darkseid, PL 17 Doomsday, Ultraman)

Post by Harnos »

Goldar wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:05 pm So this is the cartoon version of Superwoman?

Are you going to do a comics version (some give her amazonium bracelets) and magic lasso?
No, that is just for visual. I already gave her a magic lasso but forgot to make it bold.
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters (PL 18 Darkseid, PL 17 Doomsday, Ultraman)

Post by Goldar »

Harnos wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:04 pm
Goldar wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:05 pm So this is the cartoon version of Superwoman?

Are you going to do a comics version (some give her amazonium bracelets) and magic lasso?
No, that is just for visual. I already gave her a magic lasso but forgot to make it bold.
Ah, gotcha!
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters

Post by Harnos »

Image

Green Lantern- Hal Jordan PL 15
Strength 2 Stamina 3 Fighting 9
Agility 4 Dexterity 4
Intellect 2 Awareness 5 Presence 4


Powers:
Willpower Reserve: Enhanced Will 4, Limited to Green Lantern Ring
Feature 1: Extra 1 ranks on Force Constructs and alt-effects when using extra or extraordinary effort (3 pp)

Green Lantern Ring:

Ring AI: Feature 2 (AI and Database), Comprehend Languages 3 (Can read, speak and understand all languages) (8)
Scanning Beam:Senses 6 (Analytical Auditory, Chemical and Visual) (6)
Mental Link: Communication 4 (Mental, Planet-wide), Limited to Green Lantern Corps (-2) (8)

Force Field: Protection 13, Sustained, Impervious Toughness 8 (Stops 7 or less damage, 16 pp) linked with Immunity 8, Sustained (All Environmental Conditions, Suffocation, Poison), Feature 1 (Quick Change), Environment 1 (Light) (39)

Lantern Flight: Flight 16 (125.000 MPH) (32)
  • AE: Movement 4 (Space Travel 3, Zero Gravity Adaptation)
Force Constructs: Create 18, Precise, Stationary, Impervious 10 (Stops 9 Damage,20 pp), Enhanced Volume 6 (500.000 cubic meters) [64 pp array] (All Dynamic) (89)
  • Moveable Constructs: Create 15, Moveable, Impervious 7, Increased Mass 4 (12500-25000 tons), Enhanced Volume 1 (2000 cubic meters)
  • Force Blast: Ranged Damage 18, Accurate 1, Extended Range 3 (Max range 7200 ft- 2km)
  • Multi-blast: Ranged Damage 15, Multiattack, Accurate 2, Extended Range 1
  • Force Lifting: Move Object 18, Damaging, Precise, Accurate 1, Increased Mass 1 (12500-25000 tons)
  • Blast Cone: Ranged Damage 15, Cone Area 2 (120 ft-36m)
  • Special Blast: Ranged Damage 15, Shapeable Area 2 (60 cubic feet)
  • Bursting Blast: Ranged Damage 15, Burst Area 2 (60 ft)
  • Force Bonds: Ranged Affliction 15,(Resisted by Dodge, Overcome by Damage), (Hindered and Vulnerable, Defenseless and Immobile, Paralyzed)
    Extra Condition, Cumulative, Accurate 1, Extended Range 1
  • Mass Force Bonds: Ranged Affliction 12, Shapeable Area 60 ft,(Resisted by Dodge, Overcome by Damage), (Hindered and Vulnerable, Defenseless and Immobile, Paralyzed), Extra Condition
  • Force Bubble: Ranged Burst Area 1 (30 ft) Immunity 7 (All Environmental Conditions, Suffocation), Affect Others Only, Sustained linked with Create 18, Moveable 10 (25-50 tons)
  • Maximum Force Field; Enhanced Advantages: Withstand Damage 2 (+5 Toughness, -5 Dodge/Parry)
  • Force Monsters: Summon 10, Variable 1, Controlled 1, Multiple Minions 2 (4), Horde, Will Check 10 (DC 20) Required
Advantages:
Extraordinary Effort, Favored Environment 2 (Open Air, Space), Fearless, Move-by Action, Withstand Damage 2 (+5 Toughness, -5 Dodge/Parry), Ultimate Effort (Will checks)

Skills: 50 ranks
Acrobatics 2/6
Athletics 4/6
Close Combat: Unarmed
Deception 1/5
Expertise: Military 4/6
Expertise: Green Lantern 9/11
Insight 2/7
Intimidation 2/6
Investigation 3/5
Perception 2/7
Persuasion 5/9
Ranged Combat: Power Ring 5/11
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Technology
Treatment
Vehicles 11/15

Defenses:
Dodge 12 Parry 10 Toughness 3/16
Fortitude 6 Will 14

Offense:
Initiative +4
Unarmed 9 , Damage 2
Force Blast 11, Damage 18
Multi-blast 13, Damage 15
Force Bonds 11, Affliction 15
Various Area Blasts, Damage 15

Abilities 66 + Defenses 21 + Powers 185 + Advantages 6 + Skills 25 = 303 pp

Complications:
Power Loss: The power ring needs periodic recharging and issues a warning as its power runs low.
Reputation: Hal Jordan is a maverick in nearly all aspects of his life and known for having issues with authority.
Responsibility: Hal takes his responsibilities as a ring-slinger very seriously. He also feels responsible for the terrible acts of
Parallax while the fear entity controlled him.
Weakness: Green Lantern power rings depend on the willpower of the wearer; the maximum rank of the ring’s effects
is equal to the wearer’s Will rank, and moments of self-doubt or hesitation can cause the ring to fail.

Here is the strongest Green Lantern. Hal Jordan is a PL 14.5 on offense and PL 13,5 on defense. He isn't on the same level as Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman, just a notch below. However his Favored Environment can make up for this most of the time. He reaches his offensive cap with a +1 bonus to extra ranks when he use extra effort. Hal is also faster than all other lanterns, he can reach the speed of fastest spaceships on the vehicle list. Both Hal Jordan and John Stewart became much more expensive than I thought, going over 300 points is surprising.
Last edited by Harnos on Sun Jun 11, 2023 8:55 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Captain Atom

Post by Harnos »

Image
Image

Captain Atom PL 14 (293)

Strength 17 Stamina - Fighting 9
Agility 3 Dexterity 4
Intellect 1 Awareness 2 Presence 1


Powers:
Energy Being: Immunity 30 (Fortitude Effects)
Immunity 10 (Radiation Effects) (40)
Dilustel Body: Protection 18, Impervious 10 (38)
Super-Strength: Enhanced Strength 5, Limited to Lifting (100.000 tons) (5)
Enhance Reflexes: Enhanced Advantages: Accurate Attack, Improved Initiative 3, Evasion 1 (5)
Flight: Flight 16, Subtle (125.000 MPH) (31)

Quantum Field Control: Ranged Damage 18, Accurate 2, Extended Range 1 linked with Weaken Toughness 2, Ranged, Affects Objects, Accurate 2, Extended Range 1 [48 pp array] (55)
  • Multi-blast: Ranged Damage 14, Multi-attack, Accurate 3, Extended Range 1
  • Radiation Wave: Line Area 1 (120 ft), Ranged Damage 14,
  • Radiation Cone: Cone Area 1 (60 ft) Ranged Damage 14, Feature 2 (Can quadruple the area by spending a move action to concentrate), Feature 2 (Can further quadruple the area by using extra effort)
  • Radiation Burst: Burst Area 2(60 ft) Close Damage 14, Feature 2 (Can quadruple the area by spending a move action to concentrate), Feature 2 (Can further quadruple the area by using extra effort)
  • Absorb Energy: Nullify Energy 15, Broad, Simultaneous, Accurate 2, Extended Range 1
  • Neutralize Energy: Nullify Energy 15, Broad, Simultaneous, Concentration, Distracting, Accurate 2, Extended Range 1
  • Energy Shield: Immunity 40 (Energy Effects), Sustained, Activation 2 (Standart Action)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Improved Initiative 3, Evasion 1
Benefit (Military Rank), Diehard, Extraordinary Effort, Power Attack, Fearless, Improved Aim, Ranged Attack 2

Skills: 38 ranks
Acrobatics 1/4
Athletics 3/20
Close Combat: Unarmed 2/11
Deception
Expertise: Soldier 7/8
Expertise: Science 4/5
Insight
Intimidation 9/10
Investigation
Perception 6/8
Persuasion
Ranged Combat:
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Technology 4/5
Treatment
Vehicles 1/5

Defenses:
Dodge 10 Parry 10 Toughness 18 (Impervious to 9 or less)
Fortitude Immune Will 9

Offense:
Initiative 15
Unarmed 10 , Damage 17
Radiation Blast 10, Damage 18
Multi-blast 12, Damage 14


Abilities 74 + Defenses 15 + Powers 176 + Advantages 8 + Skills 19 = 292 pp

Complications:
Motivation (Loyalty): Nathanial Adam is a soldier loyal to USA.
Fish Out of Water: Nathaniel missed a lot of history and there are gaps in what should be his basic store of common/general knowledge.
Forced Time Travel: When Captain Atom pushes his ability to absorb energy past its normal limits, the accumulated energy “overwash” propels him through time. The exact amount of time traveled is up to the needs of the plot, but a rule of thumb is to take the rank of the triggering effect and compare it to the Time column of the basic rank chart – this is how much time is jumped past.

I like metallic skinned guys, it has distinct, inhuman yet heroic vibe. Captain Atom is another PL 14 guy for me. He can fight Superman, Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman but unlikely to win. He is a tad stronger and tougher than J'onn J'onnzz and just below the Billy Batson. I didn't give him full Dr. Manhattan powers but focused on his radiation control. He is immune to radiation and with a standart action can resist all energy effects, though he can be overloaded and be sent forward in time.

I noticed I gave Flight 15 to most Dc leaguers, I might lower or increase some.
Last edited by Harnos on Mon May 29, 2023 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters (Hal Jordan, Captain Atom)

Post by Ares »

Poor Captain Atom. Like Captain Marvel, he went from the prime paragon powerhouse of his setting to an also ran in the main DC. Still, since Billy has a bit more legacy and popularity he tends to at least get placed in Superman's league physically, if not always given the same level of respect.

Atom here had one solid push for him being a big powerhouse in DC during his re-introduction in the 80s, where he was considered to be a Superman-tier powerhouse. But ever since DC planned and failed to make him Monarch, Captain Atom has suffered quite a bit. If they aren't trying to figure out how to make him Monarch again, they're trying to turn him into Dr. Manhattan. It's like they can't just have him be an atomic powered powerhouse who happens to also be both loyal to the American government and a very moral person. His Charlton self also had a few nifty abilities, like his superstrength and durability being due to his control over his atomic density. He could do the Vision thing of being intangible one second (usually used to fly through walls) or superdurable and strong the next.

My own power scaling I tend to have guys like Superman and Captain Marvel in that Marvel Class 100 Hulk / Hercules / Thor level of physical might, while I tend to place Diana in that Class 80 Thing / Colossus level of strength and toughness to better show off her skill level (she's basically so good a fighter she can fight Class 100 powerhouses evenly despite the strength difference). J'onn is someone who starts out at Class 80 but can increase his strength to Class 100 via his density shifting and shapeshifting, but at the cost of limiting his versatility. Captain Atom is someone I'd put in the Class 90 / Namor /Black Bolt level of strength where he isn't quite Class 100, but can slug it out with those guys pretty well. Atom's big advantage should be that, like Green Lantern, his energy abilities are more powerful and versatile than guys like Superman. Atom can punch hard, but his energy blasts can overwhelm Superman's heat vision and deal more damage. It's just that kind of output tends to be more draining than punching. Atom can put down top tier heroes with enough energy blasts, but he needs to punch between the really powerful blasts to keep from wearing himself out. Hal can similarly take on top tier guys, but his weakness is more about mental fatigue, concentration and his relative lack of durability compared to top tiers.

I do realize this is your own scale doing your own thing, with Superman being more of a Centurion like "lone top dog", so I'm not trying to say "you're wrong" or anything. Just giving my own two cents, which honestly would probably be better spent in a thread of my own.
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters (Hal Jordan, Captain Atom)

Post by Harnos »

Ares wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:57 pm Poor Captain Atom. Like Captain Marvel, he went from the prime paragon powerhouse of his setting to an also ran in the main DC. Still, since Billy has a bit more legacy and popularity he tends to at least get placed in Superman's league physically, if not always given the same level of respect.

Atom here had one solid push for him being a big powerhouse in DC during his re-introduction in the 80s, where he was considered to be a Superman-tier powerhouse. But ever since DC planned and failed to make him Monarch, Captain Atom has suffered quite a bit. If they aren't trying to figure out how to make him Monarch again, they're trying to turn him into Dr. Manhattan. It's like they can't just have him be an atomic powered powerhouse who happens to also be both loyal to the American government and a very moral person. His Charlton self also had a few nifty abilities, like his superstrength and durability being due to his control over his atomic density. He could do the Vision thing of being intangible one second (usually used to fly through walls) or superdurable and strong the next.

My own power scaling I tend to have guys like Superman and Captain Marvel in that Marvel Class 100 Hulk / Hercules / Thor level of physical might, while I tend to place Diana in that Class 80 Thing / Colossus level of strength and toughness to better show off her skill level (she's basically so good a fighter she can fight Class 100 powerhouses evenly despite the strength difference). J'onn is someone who starts out at Class 80 but can increase his strength to Class 100 via his density shifting and shapeshifting, but at the cost of limiting his versatility. Captain Atom is someone I'd put in the Class 90 / Namor /Black Bolt level of strength where he isn't quite Class 100, but can slug it out with those guys pretty well. Atom's big advantage should be that, like Green Lantern, his energy abilities are more powerful and versatile than guys like Superman. Atom can punch hard, but his energy blasts can overwhelm Superman's heat vision and deal more damage. It's just that kind of output tends to be more draining than punching. Atom can put down top tier heroes with enough energy blasts, but he needs to punch between the really powerful blasts to keep from wearing himself out. Hal can similarly take on top tier guys, but his weakness is more about mental fatigue, concentration and his relative lack of durability compared to top tiers.

I do realize this is your own scale doing your own thing, with Superman being more of a Centurion like "lone top dog", so I'm not trying to say "you're wrong" or anything. Just giving my own two cents, which honestly would probably be better spent in a thread of my own.
So he started his existence in another universe and company like Captain Marvel, I see. I like him as exactly you described, a brick with full-fledged energy powers is a lovely concept. I agree on 90\100 ratio which corresponds to 18\20 :lol: However I don't understand why energy control powers should overcome physical brutes, elaborate please. Captain Atom can generate "red sun" radiation maybe but ı didn't get your overall reasoning. By the way comments are always more than welcome.
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters (Hal Jordan, Captain Atom)

Post by Ken »

Ares wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:57 pmPoor Captain Atom. Like Captain Marvel, he went from the prime paragon powerhouse of his setting to an also ran in the main DC. Still, since Billy has a bit more legacy and popularity he tends to at least get placed in Superman's league physically, if not always given the same level of respect.

Atom here had one solid push for him being a big powerhouse in DC during his re-introduction in the 80s, where he was considered to be a Superman-tier powerhouse. But ever since DC planned and failed to make him Monarch, Captain Atom has suffered quite a bit. If they aren't trying to figure out how to make him Monarch again, they're trying to turn him into Dr. Manhattan. It's like they can't just have him be an atomic powered powerhouse who happens to also be both loyal to the American government and a very moral person. His Charlton self also had a few nifty abilities, like his superstrength and durability being due to his control over his atomic density. He could do the Vision thing of being intangible one second (usually used to fly through walls) or superdurable and strong the next.
Captain Atom was weird, in as much as while he was the primary powerhouse of his setting, the Khaji-Dha Dr. Dan Garrett Blue Beetle could have given him a run for his money. Son of Vulcan might have been able to as well.

But later on, when Giordano was top man, Dr. Garrett was nerfed so he could be killed by Jarvis Kord; this was to facilitate Ted becoming the Blue beetle. But at the same time, Captain Atom was nerfed. The whole story with his powers disappearing amd reasserting but him leaking, so he needed the metal skin (the silver arms look) cost the Captain a lot of power. He was still the primary paragon, but the the Charlton line itself was sliding into a lower level of power. Which makes his big push as a Superman-class guy in the 1980s a little weird, as by this time Giordano was the top editor at DC.
Ares wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:57 pmIt's like they can't just have him be an atomic powered powerhouse who happens to also be both loyal to the American government and a very moral person.
Well. They can't. The people who tend to be hired as writers at the major comics consider loyalty to the government to be amoral at best, and more likely immoral. So Cap become corrupt (Monarch), indifferent (Dr. Manhattan), or naïve.

Captain Marvel has a similar problem. Writing a genuinely moral character is hard for them. So instead we get the Black Adam wankfest because, since he's Captain Marvel but morally "ambiguous."
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters (Hal Jordan, Captain Atom)

Post by Goldar »

Ares wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:57 pm Poor Captain Atom. Like Captain Marvel, he went from the prime paragon powerhouse of his setting to an also ran in the main DC. Still, since Billy has a bit more legacy and popularity he tends to at least get placed in Superman's league physically, if not always given the same level of respect.

Atom here had one solid push for him being a big powerhouse in DC during his re-introduction in the 80s, where he was considered to be a Superman-tier powerhouse. But ever since DC planned and failed to make him Monarch, Captain Atom has suffered quite a bit. If they aren't trying to figure out how to make him Monarch again, they're trying to turn him into Dr. Manhattan. It's like they can't just have him be an atomic powered powerhouse who happens to also be both loyal to the American government and a very moral person. His Charlton self also had a few nifty abilities, like his superstrength and durability being due to his control over his atomic density. He could do the Vision thing of being intangible one second (usually used to fly through walls) or superdurable and strong the next.

My own power scaling I tend to have guys like Superman and Captain Marvel in that Marvel Class 100 Hulk / Hercules / Thor level of physical might, while I tend to place Diana in that Class 80 Thing / Colossus level of strength and toughness to better show off her skill level (she's basically so good a fighter she can fight Class 100 powerhouses evenly despite the strength difference). J'onn is someone who starts out at Class 80 but can increase his strength to Class 100 via his density shifting and shapeshifting, but at the cost of limiting his versatility. Captain Atom is someone I'd put in the Class 90 / Namor /Black Bolt level of strength where he isn't quite Class 100, but can slug it out with those guys pretty well. Atom's big advantage should be that, like Green Lantern, his energy abilities are more powerful and versatile than guys like Superman. Atom can punch hard, but his energy blasts can overwhelm Superman's heat vision and deal more damage. It's just that kind of output tends to be more draining than punching. Atom can put down top tier heroes with enough energy blasts, but he needs to punch between the really powerful blasts to keep from wearing himself out. Hal can similarly take on top tier guys, but his weakness is more about mental fatigue, concentration and his relative lack of durability compared to top tiers.

I do realize this is your own scale doing your own thing, with Superman being more of a Centurion like "lone top dog", so I'm not trying to say "you're wrong" or anything. Just giving my own two cents, which honestly would probably be better spent in a thread of my own.
I see WW right up there with Supes and Capt Marvel but all 3 as way above Hulk, Thor, etc, WW would one-shot the thing.

Even in Marvel (to me), there are those above Thor, Hulk, Hercules such asThanos, Kurse, King Hyperion, Gladiator, and so many more.
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Re: Marvel and DC Heavy Hitters (Hal Jordan, Captain Atom)

Post by Ares »

Harnos wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:17 pm
So he started his existence in another universe and company like Captain Marvel, I see. I like him as exactly you described, a brick with full-fledged energy powers is a lovely concept. I agree on 90\100 ratio which corresponds to 18\20 :lol: However I don't understand why energy control powers should overcome physical brutes, elaborate please. Captain Atom can generate "red sun" radiation maybe but ı didn't get your overall reasoning. By the way comments are always more than welcome.
I'm not saying that Captain Atom WILL beat Superman using his energy blasts, just that Atom has a better chance of winning by relying more on his energy blasts than his fists.

My logic is that most superstrong types have comparable durability to their strength. Superman's heat vision is normally not as damaging as his Fists, but he can pump more of his solar reserves into his heat vision to up their intensity. However, while doing so can deal more damage, it also exhausts Superman more quickly. So it's usually more prudent for Superman to punch rather than shoot heat vision blasts that can exceed his punches in damage.

Meanwhile, my take is that while Captain Atom isn't as strong as Superman, his default energy blasts do more damage than Superman's default heat vision, and his max energy blasts can do more damage than Superman's max heat vision. So Captain Atom has a better chance against Superman using energy blasts than punches because his energy blasts deal damage comparable to Superman's punches. They also let Atom keep his distance.

However, energy blasts strong enough to hurt Superman takes more effort than throwing a punch, so Atom can't just spam those blasts without exhausting himself. So he has to mix up blasts with some melee attacks to stay in the fight long enough to have a hope of beating Superman. So what he tends to do is mix it up with Superman in melee and hit Clark with big energy blasts to really wear him down. And if he charges his fists with energy, his punches deal damage closer to Clark's. Unfortunately, since Atom is less durable than Clark, every time they trade punches Atom is going to take more damage than Clark takes, and thus will lose more often than win a slugfest.

Basically, Captain Marvel and Superman can trade punches and either has even odds of winning. Captain Atom trades punches with Superman and Atom probably going to lose every time, even with energy enhanced punches. So for Atom to have decent odds against Superman, Atom has to fight smart, dodge and weave, and use a combo of energy enhanced punches and very powerful energy blasts. If Atom does that well enough, he can potentially beat Clark a decent amount, though probably no more than 4 /10.

Now, if Atom does weakness exploitation like hit Superman with Red Sun or Kryptonite radiation, or just drain Clark's energy reserves, Atom should win significantly more often, but for some reason Atom either never uses those options or for some reason the effects are severely downplayed against Superman. Really, Atom should be a nightmare for Clark, but he's almost never portrayed that way.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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