What's Wrong With Comics According to Me

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NoOneofConsequence
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Re: What's Wrong With Comics According to Me

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:13 am Otherwise you'd have to use the manga-style "costume design" method of hyper-complicating everything.
The existence of Batman: Black & White, Marvel Essentials and DC Showcase would seem to disprove that statement.
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Re: What's Wrong With Comics According to Me

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The notion of comics vs. manga and what works is a tricky one, as it's also based off of cultural standards, long histories, etc. Manga went through a brief craze over here, but is nowhere near as big as it once was- it was kind of a fad and has stabilized- the stores in my town typically have a bigger comics section than a manga-imports one.

Culturally, Manga also has a very hyper-focused target audience- there's some crossover, but many genres are defined by the gender and age groups they're targetting, while Marvel & DC seem all over the place, often going for multiple groups at the same time (while actively taunting their older disgruntled fans while courting younger ones that don't seem to be showing up in the numbers anywhere close to what they want).

There's also the notion that manga is typically "one artist/writer" and has limited runs (barring the exceptions of the major Shonen superstar books, which are probably our closest comparison to American comics), which can invite more passionate, but short-term, fandoms. The Marvel or DC equivalent would be to let Batman die in the '60s or Spider-Man end in the '70s or whatever- the American comics world (which originates more from comic strips) is eternal, and set up that way. Which goes back to the original point at the heard of this topic... that the major companies have been actively wrecking their old characters.

I won't argue that an "Anthology"-style collection system might work, though.
NoOneofConsequence wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:19 am
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:13 am Otherwise you'd have to use the manga-style "costume design" method of hyper-complicating everything.
The existence of Batman: Black & White, Marvel Essentials and DC Showcase would seem to disprove that statement.
You'd have to read my whole statement, which points out that *I* won't buy the books, not a stated fact that this is universal. I've bought several Essentials collections in the past to have the complete stories, and they definitely lose a lot without color. Enough so that I stopped picking them up.

Batman, at least, fits more of that "Noir" style with his design. Moon Knight, Shang-Chi, etc. might be able to pull it off.
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Batgirl III
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Re: What's Wrong With Comics According to Me

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I am thinking, primarily, that American publishers should adopt the “monthly anthologies / quarterly collections” aspect of the business model, along with a return to marketing outside of specialty shops.
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Ares
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Re: What's Wrong With Comics According to Me

Post by Ares »

So basically, the comics industry is suffering because:

1) The industry is engaged harmful practices that drive away customers and hurt comic book stores, such as cover gimmicks (and having to purchase X amount of a book to receive certain covers), relaunching with new #1s for short price increases, flood the shelves bloat, over-reliance on events and tie ins, price increases disproportionate for the value of the books they put out, etc.

2) The industry is infested with people who do not care about the industry and view it as a stepping stone to other work. Instead of sincerely wanting to work on the characters they're entrusted with, they use those characters as tools to promote themselves and/or their ideology. The writers take the focus from the characters and put it on themselves. This often results in stories that appeal only to the writer, rather than stories meant to appeal to a wider audience.

3) The industry refuses to adapt in ways that take advantage of the current popularity of superheroes. Comics largely remain limited to comic stores and book stores, rather than being available in supermarkets, drugstores, convenience stores and so on. There is limited avenue to entice new readers into the industry. The stories they do put out would be largely impenetrable to a new reader or general audience. There is either a need to return to the kind of storytelling of the 70s and 80s where most issues could easily serve as a gateway into the larger comics setting, or companies need to start putting out gateway books specifically designed to entice new readers.

4) Happily engaging in the divisive politics of the day, when the majority of people are burnt out on politics, especially ones that divide the fanbase further. While politics are a part of the world and thus the media should include politicians and the like, there is a difference between a story that has politics and a political story or a story with a political agenda. Politics has never been the primary thing that moved issues. People want to read about the characters they love interacting with the people in their lives and going on incredible adventures.


Honestly, it sounds like the big problem with the industry is that a lot of the people in authority don't actually care about comic books or their characters. They're willing to chase trends and short-term profits over long-term creative excellence, regardless of the damage it does to the industry, the fanbase and the stores that keep the industry alive. In short, it's populated by selfish individuals instead of people who either love the medium or who want the medium to survive long-term.
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Re: What's Wrong With Comics According to Me

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Image
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Re: What's Wrong With Comics According to Me

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Batgirl III wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:30 pm Image
That's part of the kind of political divisiveness I mean. I know it's meant to be humorous, it's certainly true of a group within the Left, and Twitter is not the place for nuance.

At the same time, just making a blanket statement about "The Left" is no more or less helpful than whenever people on the other side of the isle try to make everyone Right leaning or conservative out to be a "Far Right/Alt-Right extremist who is responsible for the world's woes". Both the Right and the Left have a problem of radical ideologs within their ranks that happily feed the current climate of cultural divisiveness because it keeps them in power. The Far Left is simply the one with the most swing at the moment. They've become the equivalent of the moral guardians of the 80s and 90s with similar levels of "won't you think of the children" hysteria and policing, just with political correctness and identity politics as the tool rather than religion and classic values. And a chunk of the Left silently tolerates these groups of whack jobs in the same way the Right did to their own bad batch then, because these loud idiots occasionally prove useful.

So while I agree that the Far Left is causing a lot of problems these days, I'm not a fan of painting the Left or the Right with a board brush like that. Unless a problem is systemic within the entire group (like, say, ANTIFA), then I'd rather take the time to find the cancer within said group and cut it out, rather than decry the entire group as being lost.

*looks up at above post*

You know, I dislike Twitter for a lot of reasons, but I don't think it was ever a platform that would have worked for me and my . . . well, writing tendencies.
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Re: What's Wrong With Comics According to Me

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David Burge is a satirist and definitely a man of the right, so most of his targets are on the left... But I wasn’t so much think of this as a left/right issue (despite his #lefties hashtag) but was reminded of it by your post above:
Honestly, it sounds like the big problem with the industry is that a lot of the people in authority don't actually care about comic books or their characters. They're willing to chase trends and short-term profits over long-term creative excellence, regardless of the damage it does to the industry, the fanbase and the stores that keep the industry alive. In short, it's populated by selfish individuals instead of people who either love the medium or who want the medium to survive long-term.
A lot of people have identified superhero comic books as a respected (or at least, long established) part of popular culture;

Megaconglomerates swooped in to gut it for parts for IP they can use for more profitable products like movies, tv, and video games; Simultaneously, “Creatives” have swooped in to try to make a name for themselves so they can jump to more prestigious products like movies or tv;

Neither group really cares about the comic book medium and this is killing it as a successful medium;

Both groups (especially the “Creatives”) are demanding that the long established audience for the medium treat them with the deference and loyalty we had for the older generations of writers and artists.

This isn’t necessarily a right/left issue (although, good luck finding a conservative on the payroll at any comic book studio) so much as a white collar / blue collar or snobbish elite / populist masses issue. All these art school grads and film school grads who want to Make Great Art who deign to pander to the schlubs that want to read stupid stories about stupid superheroes.
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Re: What's Wrong With Comics According to Me

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Batgirl III wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:22 pm David Burge is a satirist and definitely a man of the right, so most of his targets are on the left... But I wasn’t so much think of this as a left/right issue (despite his #lefties hashtag) but was reminded of it by your post above:
Honestly, it sounds like the big problem with the industry is that a lot of the people in authority don't actually care about comic books or their characters. They're willing to chase trends and short-term profits over long-term creative excellence, regardless of the damage it does to the industry, the fanbase and the stores that keep the industry alive. In short, it's populated by selfish individuals instead of people who either love the medium or who want the medium to survive long-term.
A lot of people have identified superhero comic books as a respected (or at least, long established) part of popular culture;

Megaconglomerates swooped in to gut it for parts for IP they can use for more profitable products like movies, tv, and video games; Simultaneously, “Creatives” have swooped in to try to make a name for themselves so they can jump to more prestigious products like movies or tv;

Neither group really cares about the comic book medium and this is killing it as a successful medium;

Both groups (especially the “Creatives”) are demanding that the long established audience for the medium treat them with the deference and loyalty we had for the older generations of writers and artists.

This isn’t necessarily a right/left issue (although, good luck finding a conservative on the payroll at any comic book studio) so much as a white collar / blue collar or snobbish elite / populist masses issue. All these art school grads and film school grads who want to Make Great Art who deign to pander to the schlubs that want to read stupid stories about stupid superheroes.
I agree with all of that. I suppose I saw the #lefties in the Tweet and wanted to be clear that no one is bashing the Left as a whole here. I'm against the kind of collectivist/tribalist mindset I see taking root in some people these days, as I'm generally an individualist. I feel that a lot of people are too happy to group everyone into neat little boxes based on their sex, orientation, race and broad political affiliation, assuming they must all have had the same experiences, must behave the same way, etc., rather than figuring out their actual experiences, beliefs, personalities, what they want, what they feel, etc.

Echoes isn't for everyone, but anyone who wants to be here (and who can follow the rules) is welcome.
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Re: What's Wrong With Comics According to Me

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It’s simple, I divide the world into three groups: Me; People Who Agree With Me; and, People Who Are Wrong.

And I’m not too sure about the IQs of that second group.
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Re: What's Wrong With Comics According to Me

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Ares wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:10 pm So basically, the comics industry is suffering because:

1) The industry is engaged harmful practices that drive away customers and hurt comic book stores, such as cover gimmicks (and having to purchase X amount of a book to receive certain covers), relaunching with new #1s for short price increases, flood the shelves bloat, over-reliance on events and tie ins, price increases disproportionate for the value of the books they put out, etc.

2) The industry is infested with people who do not care about the industry and view it as a stepping stone to other work. Instead of sincerely wanting to work on the characters they're entrusted with, they use those characters as tools to promote themselves and/or their ideology. The writers take the focus from the characters and put it on themselves. This often results in stories that appeal only to the writer, rather than stories meant to appeal to a wider audience.

3) The industry refuses to adapt in ways that take advantage of the current popularity of superheroes. Comics largely remain limited to comic stores and book stores, rather than being available in supermarkets, drugstores, convenience stores and so on. There is limited avenue to entice new readers into the industry. The stories they do put out would be largely impenetrable to a new reader or general audience. There is either a need to return to the kind of storytelling of the 70s and 80s where most issues could easily serve as a gateway into the larger comics setting, or companies need to start putting out gateway books specifically designed to entice new readers.

4) Happily engaging in the divisive politics of the day, when the majority of people are burnt out on politics, especially ones that divide the fanbase further. While politics are a part of the world and thus the media should include politicians and the like, there is a difference between a story that has politics and a political story or a story with a political agenda. Politics has never been the primary thing that moved issues. People want to read about the characters they love interacting with the people in their lives and going on incredible adventures.


Honestly, it sounds like the big problem with the industry is that a lot of the people in authority don't actually care about comic books or their characters. They're willing to chase trends and short-term profits over long-term creative excellence, regardless of the damage it does to the industry, the fanbase and the stores that keep the industry alive. In short, it's populated by selfish individuals instead of people who either love the medium or who want the medium to survive long-term.
I'm not smart enough to really add anything to this conversation so I'll just repost the above and say I wholeheartedly agree.
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Re: What's Wrong With Comics According to Me

Post by Jack of Spades »

Ares wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:10 pm Honestly, it sounds like the big problem with the industry is that a lot of the people in authority don't actually care about comic books or their characters. They're willing to chase trends and short-term profits over long-term creative excellence, regardless of the damage it does to the industry, the fanbase and the stores that keep the industry alive. In short, it's populated by selfish individuals instead of people who either love the medium or who want the medium to survive long-term.
I think that's true of the big two. And the so-called "superstar talent" they hire, while not working in service of the characters, is also (in my not so humble opinion) not actually all that talented, at least insofar as they don't know how to work in the medium. The writers and artists who could be real superstars with the kind of promotion the big two can deliver either don't work there or aren't promoted the way the "superstars" are.

Like I said to begin with, I sit at the intersection of both fandoms. There are a few writers, artists, and writer/artists I'll follow when I get the chance, and there are characters I love. But neither the talented creators nor the characters are being well served by the industry, and as a result the readers are being very poorly served indeed.
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