The Coyote Den

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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Ares
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Re: The Coyote Den

Post by Ares »

Stand's were pretty simple when they first started, essentially being an interesting visual way for Araki to represent psychic powers. He'd wanted to move JJBA away from the Ripple power effect, wanting to use psychic powers, but finding standard psychic stuff boring to draw, since it's mostly just people staring at each other while stuff happens around them. So he got the idea to make Stands that would embody said psychic powers, be invisible to normal people, and represented psychic powers in a cool way. Star Platinum moving stuff around would look like telekinesis to normal people, while those with paranormal abilities actually see Star Platinum physically moving stuff around. Similarly, Magician Red would look like pyrokenesis to the uninitiated, and a cool fire-breathing birdman to the initiated.

So in the beginning, Stands were generally more "simple", relatively speaking. They were all under the control of their user, they allowed the user to have cool but relatively understandable abilities and they made for interesting fights. So you got things like water control, shapeshifting, future prediction, sand control, fire control, a gun that fired remote control bullets, etc. You got some more off the wall powers like "create a large ocean vessel that you completely control", stopping time, creating a mind/body control mist, jumping between reflections, etc.

It was after Stardust Crusaders that the Stands started getting . . . weird. As in they just went completely off the rails with what they could do, had less limitations, and started even breaking the basic pseudo-rules established early on. Some Stands were no independent and could switch from user to user. Anubis was originally supposed to be unique as a Stand that had continued on after it's user had died, bonding with its users blade and inheriting some of said user's personality.

Me personally, I kind of preferred it when Stands were a bit more simple, and think that some of the later Stands maybe should have been something unique, an explanation for forest spirits, ghosts and the like that weren't "Stands" in and of themselves. After all, the series had vampires already, plenty of room for other stuff.

I always found it a shame Hamon kind of fell by the wayside in later chapters, or that Joseph never really used it much during Stardust Crusaders. Having a versatile martial arts like was a lot of fun, and having the original series basically being Fist of the Northstar meets Castlevania was also a lot of fun. Hamon could have also been a way for Joseph to make up for how relatively limited Hermit Purple was. Then again, I've only really had experience with the first three major arcs of the JoJo-verse, as I was kind of turned off by the stuff I saw later on and just never followed anything after Stardust Crusaders with any seriousness. Apparently the writer decided to do some alternate universe stuff where there was a new kind of Hamon/Ripple style power based on rotation? Steel Ball Run?

Ah well, I'll always love the earlier stuff for the fun concepts, the memes and the 80s music references.
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CoyoteUnion
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Re: The Coyote Den

Post by CoyoteUnion »

Ares wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:51 pm be invisible to normal people
How'd I forget that

Bruh

So Jotaro has a bunch of "multiple effect" powers with Enhanced Traits. Does he pay Subtle (flat +1) once per power or once per trait?
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Ares
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Re: The Coyote Den

Post by Ares »

CoyoteUnion wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:13 pm
Ares wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:51 pm be invisible to normal people
How'd I forget that

Bruh

So Jotaro has a bunch of "multiple effect" powers with Enhanced Traits. Does he pay Subtle (flat +1) once per power or once per trait?
First off, don't feel bad. Most of the time a Stand only comes into play against another Stand user, so we see people on screen reacting to their presence. And naturally as viewers we can see the Stands as well. It's easy to forget the things are invisible to normal people.

It's also been shown that Stands are tangible to each other, and that damage to the Stand can hurt the user. The only reason Jotaro was able to kill Dio (who as a vampire could recover from most Stand damage) was because his Star Platinum was able to critically injure The World, and killing the World killed Dio.

Similarly, one episode where they're underwater reveals they can use Stands to communicate with each other similar to telepathy. Though that could have been a stunt.

Simply put, Stands are complicated, even for a system as robust as M&M.

My take would be that:

1) Stand users likely need a 1 Point Feature that allows them to see other Stands. Unless you want to allow for a shared universe with other supernatural craziness, in which case they'd need a full on enhanced sense power that lets them see supernatural phenomena like ghosts and such.

2) If you're going to keep Stands as a collection of powers, then you might need to purchase a full on Invisibility power that makes the powers invisible (but not the results), with a limit that it only applies to the powers and not the user (the user needs a separate invisibility power as part of their Stand) and another limit where anyone with the Feature listed above can bypass said invisibility. Maybe have either a complication or some variation of the Feedback flaw where attacking the Stand damages the user in some way.

3) Or you might just need to build the Stands as summons, with some of them being kind of limited (Hermit Purple and Emperor are almost more like specific Create powers), while others are fully mobile entities. They'd need to have Invisibility (save to Stand Users) and Intangibility (affects tangible and intangible), and that flaw where damage to the summon damages the user.
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Davies
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Re: The Coyote Den

Post by Davies »

CoyoteUnion wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:13 pm So Jotaro has a bunch of "multiple effect" powers with Enhanced Traits. Does he pay Subtle (flat +1) once per power or once per trait?
Once per trait, I should think, unless they're Linked.
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Woodclaw
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Re: The Coyote Den

Post by Woodclaw »

The biggest problem about Stands is that some of their feature doesn't translate well in game terms. For example, the more powerful a Stand abilities are the closer it must be to the person manifesting it. E.g. Jotaro can manifest Star Platinum only to to 3 meters from himself, whereas Josuke can manifest Crazy Diamond only up to 1.5 meters.
This was originally done to limit the power of certain characters, but went out of control when high power Stands with ranged or area effects started to appear.
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Re: The Coyote Den

Post by Jabroniville »

haha, nice. Good to see this thread back! And with JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, that story that's got such a unique combination of traits: Hard to Stat Abilities, Wild out-there powers, Flamboyant character designs (to the point where I still think the manga/anime took decades to actually show up here because it was "too gay" for the West until right now), and more. Its influence is so wide that numerous ultra-famous fighting game and other characters were inspired by JoJo characters but most fans had no idea because of course SFII and SNK's stuff came out "years before" JoJo did (to our eyes).

And now we've come full circle to JoJo fans being stereotyped as seeing "Is this a JoJo reference?" everywhere, lol.
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CoyoteUnion
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Bora

Post by CoyoteUnion »

Bora (PL 6, 63 PP)
Image

Abilities (40 PP)
STR: 6 STA: 5 AGL: 0 DEX: 2 FGT: 3
INT: 0 AWA: 3 PRE: 1

Skills (6 PP)
Athletics 6 (+12)
Intimidation 4 (+5)
Persuasion 2 (+3)

Advantages (4 PP)
Equipment 1 [Spear: Strength-Based Damage 3, Crit 19-20]
Great Endurance
Takedown 1
Tracking

Powers (8 PP)
Bulletproof: Impervious Protection 4 [8]

Offense
Initiative +0
Spear +3 (DC 24 Damage Crit 19-20)
Unarmed +3 (DC 21 Damage)
Throw +2 (DC 21 Damage)

Defense (5 PP)
Dodge 2, Parry 3, Fortitude 5, Toughness 9, Will 6

Complications
Responsibility: Bora has a tiny child, Upa, who can't fight.

The Red Ribbon Army wants the Dragon Balls to take over the world and Bora has one. He doesn't know what it is, but he's the guardian of the holy land outside Korin's tower and he won't let the RRA defile it. He takes out a squad but the captain takes his little son Upa hostage. Goku shows up in the nick of time to save him (and punches the non-superhuman captain out of his plane but who cares). Bora tells Goku if he climbs the tower he'll get stronger, but the RRA hired "world's greatest killer" Taopaipai who effortlessly kills Bora with his own spear. Goku fights Tao and resolves he'll get the RRA's Dragon Balls back and wish Bora back to life. He does.

Three years later, Bora throws Yajirobe and Goku up Korin's tower so Goku can train to beat the Demon King Piccolo terrorizing the world. And by "train" I meant "drink some water". Toriyama really wrote himself into a corner with that one.

That's it. He shows up in all of four chapters, which I guess makes him a normal build for Echoes of the Multiverse. He gets a filler scene in the Saiyan Saga where he stops Launch trying to climb Korin's tower, and like everyone else he gives Goku's Spirit Bomb energy to kill Buu (also anime-only). Upa gets the same, except a hilarious bit in GT where they use his teen design from the first filler, even though he's FORTY-FOUR.

I always assumed Bora was weak, but he's not. No-selling machine guns is still impressive at this point (way better than anyone in the Pilaf Saga could do). And Taopaipai's actually an elite villain here. No one's given Goku worse than an even fight at this point, and you know what Tao does once Bora's dead? He beats Goku in 5 pages! 5! Pages! I knew he trashed him but I didn't realize it was that bad. At least when other shonen MCs get one-shot there's some talking and some buildup, but Goku of all people gets one of the worst MC losses in shonen history! So Bora's not weak cause he got one-shot.

In that filler Upa's way thinner than his dad and carries a bow. He doesn't fight anyone, since he'd be like PL -2 by Saiyan Saga standards.

So, which two random D-listers should I build before 2023? My money's on Nam and Giran.

Side note, when I looked him up I saw an article called "Super Full Power Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker". I don't know what that is but that sentence rotted my brain. Super Dragon Ball Heroes is a crime. :)
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Re: The Coyote Den

Post by Jabroniville »

SWEET!! I’m glad I was able to get a request in! Got some reason I’ve always been fascinated by this guy- I never read his arc and he was never around in DBZ, so he was a total mystery to me. All I knew was that he was victimized as part of a story and that arc was about Goku attempting to resurrect him. Was that the first time the “collect the balls to resurrect a dead guy” trick was used? Because that definitely became the rule from then on, lol.
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CoyoteUnion
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Re: The Coyote Den

Post by CoyoteUnion »

It was the first. The first "resurrect everyone who died" was after King Piccolo, who I might build sometime (that was also the first "save the world from this super-strong bad guy and his minions", which has been looping ever since).
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Cooler

Post by CoyoteUnion »

Cooler (PL 14, 247 PP)
Image
Image

Abilities (42 PP)
STR: 8/1 STA: 2 AGL: 3 DEX: 3 FGT: 14/2
INT: 4 AWA: 2 PRE: 4

Skills (25 PP)
Deception 6 (+10)
Expertise (Space) 6 (+10)
Insight 6 (+8)
Intimidation 6 (+10)
Perception 6 (+8)
Persuasion 4 (+8)
Ranged Combat (Ki Techniques) 11 (+14)
Stealth 4 (+7)

Advantages (10 PP)
Accurate Attack
Benefit (Planet Trade Heir) 5
Improved Aim
Improved Critical (Darkness Eyebeams) 2
Improved Grab
Improved Initiative 4
Well-Informed

Powers (155 PP)
Arcosian (?) Physiology: Extra Limbs 1, Immunity 12 (Critical Hits, Life Support) [13]

Ki Flight: Flight 14 [28]

Passive Ki: Linked Enhanced Dodge 12, Enhanced Fighting 12, Enhanced Strength 7, Improved Initiative 4, Impervious (9 ranks) Protection 11 [74]

Ki Techniques (Array) [43]
Darkness Eyebeams: Penetrating (8 ranks) Blast 14 [40]
Ki Strike: Strength-based Damage 5 [1]
Particle Bomb: Perception Damage 10 [1]
Psychokinesis: Move Object 8 [1]

Offense
Initiative +19
Darkness Eyebeams +14 (+14 Ranged Damage, DC 29, Crit 18-20)
Ki Strike +14 (+13 Damage, DC 28)
Particle Bomb (+10 Perception Damage, DC 25)
Psychokinesis +14 (+8 Move Object, DC 18)
Throw +3 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Unarmed +14 (+8 Damage, DC 23)

Defense (16 PP)
Dodge 15/3, Parry 14/2, Fortitude 12, Toughness 13/2 (Imp 9), Will 8

Complications
Brothers are the Worst: His brother Freeza is their father's favorite, and they scheme against each other.

Yeah, that whole "do everything in order" isn't working. Let's try something else.

Insert Disc 5 of 13
Cooler is Freeza's non-canon brother from the fifth Dragon Ball Z movie, Cooler's Revenge* (so we're jumping WAY ahead in time now). it's a pretty standard DBZ movie. Goku, Krillin and Gohan go on a camping trip, a weirdly common setup for these movies considering it never happens in canon. This is after Goku became a Super Saiyan and killed Freeza, and when Cooler finds out he takes his best men to destroy Earth.

*At least that's the English name. The Japanese names are hilariously generic and don't tell you anything about the movie, like they didn't want people to know about them. This one's called The Incredible Strongest vs Strongest.

Cooler cheap-shots Goku so the others have an excuse to fight his Armored Squadron. Gohan has to get Senzu Beans to revive him, but the Squadron intercepts him and Piccolo has to save him (again, bog-standard, Piccolo saved Gohan from the bad guy's minions last movie too). Piccolo beats the entire Squadron by himself, which means of course Cooler can one-shot him. Goku eats the Senzu Bean and fights Cooler. They're even for a couple minutes, then Cooler reveals he has a FIFTH form to Freeza's four and beats the crap out of Goku. Fortunately, while Cooler's stronger than Freeza, Goku's also gotten much stronger since he killed him. Once he works up the anger to become a Super Saiyan (he was still new to it back then) he beats him and launches him into the sun like an Aussie losing their gravity belt.

Of course, the kicker is Cooler noticed Goku's space pod leaving Planet Vegeta for Earth when he was a baby, so he could've killed him except he wanted Freeza to deal with his own problems.

The Fanfic was Cooler
I was surprised how flat Cooler was rewatching their fight because I remembered him being one of the better villains in the series. But then I realized why. See, I read a ton of Dragon Ball fanfiction as a teen, and some of it was even good. Cooler has a great dynamic with Freeza in those stories (or my 14-year-old self thought he did, but that's how I remember him). He's the calmer, smarter, more experienced one compared to his childish sadist brother, but Freeza's way more talented so he's their daddy King Cold's favorite. In canon, King Cold's kind of close to Freeza's level even though he looks like his son's second form. In most of these fanfics though, Cold can transform like Freeza to become much stronger than his sons. So even though Cooler secretly discovered his fifth form and can kill Freeza, he can't let Cold know so he has to scheme against him or do it in secret. In the meantime a good writer can make smarmy Freeza and calm (but still smug) Cooler play off each other really well. They trade barbs and spies in private and play nice in public when they're itching to kill each other. Of course, the main characters throw a wrench in that whenever they get to that part of the story, or if it's a fanfic about the Saiyans, whenever they betray Freeza.

Cooler's also smarter in fanfic. Movie Cooler's supposed to be more pragmatic than Freeza (he makes his men find Goku's body instead of just assuming he killed him), but he gets killed because he's too proud to just blow up Earth from space and instantly win, or shoot baby Goku's space pod back then. So he's cunning on the surface but he's no different from his brother (which is kind of the point). But fanfic writers take that seriously and make him a planner and smooth talker.

To be honest, this build's skills and mental abilities are based on that ideal Cooler, the guy worthy of being Freeza's brother, who'd be played by Clancy Brown... okay, someone trying to sound like Clancy Brown, but still. Movie Cooler has lower ranks in all that and probably doesn't even have skills like Insight and Stealth.

And you thought Gohan wasted his potential!
But guess what, none of that's official. Cooler never even talks to Freeza in his two movies cause he's already dead, and he barely talks to his men. His calmness just means less personality with no one to bounce off, and he's flatter in the movie anyway. Worse, no one has any connections to Cooler. Vegeta somehow ISN'T IN THIS MOVIE and no one else has even heard of him. Piccolo and Goku even think he's Freeza when he's LITERALLY PURPLE. Cooler doesn't even know Goku's the Saiyan he let get away until he's flying into the sun and he doesn't know about the others.

His connection to Freeza barely even matters. Unlike fanfic, where Planet Trade stories are a big genre, official media doesn't care what life is like in space or the impact a planet-selling organization would have. It literally never comes up in 30 years of manga, anime filler, movies and video games. So any advantages or changes Cooler got from Freeza's death are meaningless and we don't know about them. If he was here to avenge his brother that'd be interesting. Like he's this horrible dictator but he hates Goku for a very human reason. But no, he literally says he would've killed Freeza himself (for once the fanfic's no help here, it runs with that too), so he's killing Goku for... doing him a favor? Oh, right, it's "family pride" to boost his image to all those space people we've never seen in 30 years. Yawn.

OK but what does he do?
Like all Z characters Cooler's super-strong and super-fast, and he can fly and shoot ki blasts. He's also... whatever Freeza's race is called (anime filler called a species that may or may not be but PROBABLY ISN'T theirs the "Arcosians", BUT ONLY IN THE ENGLISH DUB, which is somehow the closest we've got to the most famous villain's species after, again, 30 years). That means he has a tail, he can survive in space and he has a high Fortitude save because he can survive more damage than a human (Freeza cut his own legs off and lived).

Cooler's main technique here are his Darkness Eyebeams, basically laser vision. He can shoot finger beams too but it's the same effect and the eyebeams make him more distinct from Freeza. His telekinesis is just there to justify a power from his other form. His Particle Bomb's special. Apparently it's just a generic ki blast, but the way the movie frames it it's like he makes Piccolo explode just by looking at him. That's badass and Freeza doesn't have an equivalent so I gave it to him.

DBZ's heroes are martial artists who have decent stats without ki. But Freeza didn't train to get his powers and Cooler probably didn't either, or he didn't train much. So his stats aren't that good without his powers.

Freeza had to weaken himself with transformations because he couldn't control his power. For some reason Cooler doesn't have to (fanfic says he trained to control it and he's weaker anyway but we don't know), so he's always in his "final form". However, unlike Freeza he can transform to increase his power. It's called the fifth form cause it'd be Freeza's, even though Cooler only has the one transformation.

Cooler (Fifth Form) (PL 15, 313 PP)
Image
Image

Abilities (50 PP)
STR: 17/5 STA: 2 AGL: 3 DEX: 3 FGT: 13/2
INT: 4 AWA: 2 PRE: 4

Skills (25 PP)
Deception 6 (+10)
Expertise (Space) 6 (+10)
Insight 6 (+8)
Intimidation 8 (+12)
Perception 6 (+8)
Persuasion 4 (+8)
Ranged Combat (Ki Techniques) 10 (+13)
Stealth 4 (+7)

Advantages (12 PP)
All-Out Attack
Benefit (Planet Trade Heir) 5
Improved Aim
Improved Critical (Death Flash) 3
Improved Grab
Improved Initiative 5
Power Attack
Well-Informed

Powers (211 PP)
Arcosian (?) Physiology: Extra Limbs 1, Immunity 12 (Critical Hits, Life Support) [13]

Ki Flight: Flight 15 [30]

Passive Ki: Linked Enhanced Dodge 10, Enhanced Fighting 11, Enhanced Strength 12, Improved Initiative 5, Impervious (11 ranks) Protection 15 [87]

Ki Techniques (Array) [81]
Supernova: Burst Area 4 Blast 13 [78]
Death Flash: Blast 16 [1]
Particle Bomb: Perception Damage 10 [1]
Psychokinesis: Move Object 10 [1]

Offense
Initiative +23
Darkness Eyebeams +14 (+14 Ranged Damage, DC 31, Crit 18-20)
Particle Bomb (+10 Perception Damage, DC 25)
Psychokinesis +14 (+8 Move Object, DC 18)
Supernova (+13 Burst Area 4 Damage, DC 28)
Throw +3 (+15 Damage, DC 32)
Unarmed +15 (+15 Damage, DC 32)

Defense (16 PP)
Dodge 13/3, Parry 13/2, Fortitude 12, Toughness 17/2 (Imp 11), Will 8

Complications
Brothers are the Worst: His brother Freeza is their father's favorite, and they scheme against each other.
Unbeatable Fifth: Cooler thinks his fifth form can beat anyone and he'll throw his usual caution to the wind here.

In his fifth form Cooler relies on his boosted raw power and prefers melee combat. He also gets a massive area attack like his brother (their whole thing is destroying planets and the few other characters with ki blasts as big as theirs are all ripping them off). I've talked a lot of crap about Cooler but I love his fifth form's design. It looks like it could be one of Freeza's forms, which is more than I can say for Golden Freeza in Dragon Ball Super.

It also reminds me of the music. In Japanese the movies use standard DBZ music, but the English dub licensed junior high metal for literally every song (except one special that apparently has seven Dream Theater songs in a row). There's three Drowning Pool songs in this movie, the band that did Let The Bodies Hit The Floor. There's a Disturbed song for most of the Cooler fight. I'm a sucker for songs like that but I don't know that many so I'm watching the movies dubbed from now on. Cooler's fifth form goes great with them.

But then when Goku goes Super Saiyan we get Change (In the House of Flies) by Deftones instead. Problem is, I've only heard that song in a mashup... with Toxic. You know, the Britney Spears song. So it's supposed to be the big climax of the movie but I'm just thinking of THIS the whole time!

It slaps. It slaps and Britney should've sung metal. Fight me.
Jabroniville
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Re: The Coyote Den

Post by Jabroniville »

Oh yeah, Cooler is an amazing design and has a great concept (Frieza had a dad; why not a brother?) and that carries a lot of weight to make him more memorable than the Bojacks and Janembas and Androids, but otherwise he’s your typical Overconfident Non-Canon DBZ Movie Villain. Shows up, has mooks fight the weaklings, makes Piccolo play Hacksaw Jim Duggan, then jobs to the hero powering up.
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Ares
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Re: The Coyote Den

Post by Ares »

As with most things, DBZ Abridged's take on the Cooler movie was entertaining and an improvement. At the very least it was a lot of fun.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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CoyoteUnion
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Coyote Den's taking requests!

Post by CoyoteUnion »

There's so many anime characters and I'm bad at choices, so I'm taking requests from any anime I've seen:

Baki the Grappler (not caught up)
Bleach
Dragon Ball, duh
Fist of the North Star
Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (not part 8)
Naruto
One Piece
Yu Yu Hakusho

Mostly first come first serve, but if we have really complicated powers/histories and there's a simpler build in front, simple might go first. We'll see.

I'll build groups, though again they might take a while to get to, especially if the members are all complicated. If you ask for a group of like 20 people it'll get trimmed to the essential members.

Feel free to recommend other anime too.

Hoping requests will get me back into the build game. Thinking of buying Herolab full version too, templates would be really nice.
MarvelLion
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Re: The Coyote Den

Post by MarvelLion »

Nice Cooler build!
Since you’re taking requests, I’d like to see you do Yu Yu Hakusho, at least the main four characters (Yusuke, Kuwabara, Kurama, and Hiei).
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EternalPhoenix
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Re: The Coyote Den

Post by EternalPhoenix »

I'd like to see your take on some of the Straw Hats. I've knocked them off a bit in my own thread, but I'd like to see someone else's ideas.
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