Truly International Superheroes

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Ares
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Truly International Superheroes

Post by Ares »

So over in Jab's thread the topic of Russian superheroes is currently being discussed, and Grenzer had some interesting things to add to the Russian perspective on superheroes in general

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8&start=20475#p103981
Grenzer wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:58 am
Ares wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 6:30 am
Grenzer wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 3:20 am Ah, the Russians. This is another group of builds that interests me because of my own knowledge of Russian culture and history.
I'm actually very curious about what non-US nations tend to think of superheroes, or what kind of superheroes they'd create on their own. Sometimes you get examples of it from the source, where Japan gives us Kamen Rider/Super Sentai/Magic Girl type superheroes, along with anime heroes with superheroic qualities and trappings, with My Hero Academia being the most literal case. Conversely, in a lot of European countries you're more likely to find comics about Donald Duck than traditional superheroes. And there's places like the Middle East where they don't really have time to waste on superheroes.

So knowing what actual Russians would think of superheroes and superheroic fiction would actually be useful when it comes to informing my own setting. Generally speaking I try to have the existing types of heroes be the norm, often just with more superhero trappings. So Japan's superhero community would look like a mix of My Hero Academia, Kamen Rider, Power Rangers, Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball, while Mexican superheroes would have more than a few Lucha Libre inspired heroes. I find it's equally important to include some stereotypes while subverting others.

Then again, even as I say that, one of my Russian heroes is basically Ursa Major meets Captain Atom: a metal werebear with crimson skin and radiation powers.
From a 21st century perspective, Russia's view of superheroes is that they are an 'American' genre. This is not meant to be an insult, but rather they associate superheroes with American culture the way anime and its tropes are seen as a product of Japanese culture, and would be hard to copy. This has no doubt hurt the development of a homegrown Russian comic book industry, but there has been some strides in recent years. BUBBLE Comics is the largest publisher of original Russian superhero comics in the country, and the characters there have managed to gain a degree of recognition and acceptance among young readers. BUBBLE is also trying to adapt its characters into live-action films and translate the comics into English to grow a global audience, although how well this will work out is very much in the air. At the end of the day, BUBBLE would be consider rather small by the standards of most American or even other European comic publishers.

http://bubblecomics.com/

And Russian comics in general tend to follow the European trend of being about adventurers and detectives rather than caped crusaders. I should point out though that Red Fury (Krasnaya Furiya), one of BUBBLE's main characters is essentialy Black Widow if she were written by actual Russians.

I could also write a post about certain Russian literary/movie characters from before 2010 who would or sort of could fit the comic book mold to give an idea of what that country's image of heroism is if anyone is interested.

He also added a write-up of what amounts to a Russian Sherlock Holmes:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8&start=20490#p104038
Grenzer wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 4:26 am Thanks for the positive responses on my last post. I will try to throw in a new profile everyday. Full disclaimer: I am not Russian, and while my knowledge of their media is pretty extensive, it is not exhaustive. I could very easily miss an important character or series and am open to corrections from anyone with additional knowledge.

On that note...

Erast Petrovich Fandorin: Created in 1998 by novelist Boris Akunin (one of the most widely read living authors in modern Russia), Fandorin is a master detective in the mold of Sherlock Holmes, melded with the style and themes of 19th century Russian literature by Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. He is easily one of the most popular and important literary characters created in post-Soviet Russia, and a number of his novels have been adapted into theatrical films and TV miniseries.

Fandorin is by birth a nobleman (although his family is poor) and a member of the Russian Imperial Police. He starts out as a rookie detective in the Moscow bureau but quickly becomes a member of the elite Third Section (the real life secret police department of the Russian Empire before 1881), and matures into one of the government's most reliable and respected detectives until he retires in his mid 30's and becomes a private investigator, very much in the model of Holmes. Holmes even shows up in one short story as a rival, both he and Fandorin trying be catch the infamous thief Arsene Lupin. Also like Holmes, Fandorin's career spans many decades and he ends up getting involved in just about every major event in that decades leading up to the Russian Revolution, and even beyond.

In terms of abilities, Fandorin is considered very similar to Holmes. A master detective, he can piece together even the most tangential bits of information to figure out the most complex mysteries. He is a master of disguise, learned ninjutsu when living in Japan, and is more than capable of holding his own in a fight whether it is with fists or swords or firearms. However, violence is something Fandorin abhors and considers the option of last resort. His luck is so incredible it borders on being a superpower, and it apparently is a family trait that skips every other generation. Also like Holmes, he is a rather vain man who is concerned about his appearance and reputation, but his better qualities always outshine his flaws and he is greatly admired among his small circle of loyal friends.

Unlike Holmes, Fandorin is far more openly emotional and keyed into the events of the world around him. He is not under any illusions that the Tsarist government he serves is good, but the detective also knows that the terrorists and criminals he regularly encounters are worst, and so stoically completes his duty for the sake of the national interest and the common rule of law. Fandorin is also somewhat of a ladies' man, but his grief over the murder of his first wife makes it difficult for him to build stable relationships. All in all he is the idealized image of an enlightened and cosmopolitan 19th-century Russian nobleman who uses his natural gifts to benefit the Fatherland in the face of entrenched corruption and general apathy towards a just society. This ideal is something that comes up in the profile of many heroic characters in Russian literature, and will be seen again in future posts.

Read more at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erast_Fandorin
First off, a thank you to Grenzer for his input, but also leads to an interesting point. Fandorin openly acknowledges that his government is a good organization, but he does what he can to stop criminal elements from making the situation worse. It's similar to how many American superheroes acknowledge that the USA isn't perfect, but it can become better if major threats are dealt with and people have the time to progress. Granted, the USA is leagues above places like Russia and China in terms of civil liberties and individual rights, no matter what some people say.

But this creates an interesting issue for a superhero setting. While the blanket term "superhero" tends to be thrown on anyone who has superpowers, a code name or a costume, I tend to differentiate superpowered beings into several categories.

1) Superheroes: These are the true blue costumed heroes. They do what they do to help people, they usually tend to have some degree of autonomy, the usually have secret identities, and they primarily concern themselves with fighting threats too big for normal people and doing what they can to help regular law enforcement and rescue workers in times of crisis. They are, simply put, good people trying to make the world a better place by giving people the opportunity to be better and lead by example.

2) Vigilantes: These are people who technically fight crime, but rather than try to work within the law as much as possible, they frequently ignore the law and do what they feel is necessary. These are the guys like the Punisher, and this group is populated heavily by anti-heroes. These are the guys who are less concerned with saving people as they are about punishing those they feel deserve it.

3) Government Agents: These are people, usually with powers and costumes, whose priority is to serve the will of the government they work for. While they can often have Superheroic or Vigilante style leanings, their main goal is to do be an arm of their government. A lot of Image groups like Youngblood tended to fall into this camp, and in these cases, how good or evil the group is depends not only on the government, but which sector of the government they work for.

Now, in my own setting, I'd want the vast majority of groups to be superheroes, even internationally. Every major nation on Earth should have an Avengers style government sponsored team, but it'd operate more like the Avengers and less like Youngblood. Most places on Earth should have some superheroes present to protect them, and the superheroes of that land should reflect it's people's thoughts on superheroes.

Some place like Japan has many examples of their own attitudes towards superheroes. They included traditional superheroes (My Hero Academia, One Punch Man) but also include their own flavor of transforming heroes (Kamen Rider, Super Sentai, Magic Girl) and various Shonen style anime heroes (Dragon Ball, JoJo's Bizarre Adventures). So you can easily imagine a Japan where you have legit Superheroes running around.

Woodclaw's given his own perspective on European comics, and from what I can remember most comics are more likely to be Disney style funny animal and Science Fiction books than costumed heroes.

But then you imagine a place like China. While it has a healthy comic industry, the vast majority are martial arts themed books, with the occasional foray into other media. A major problem is the Chinese government, which is basically a human rights nightmare, but since it has almost a billion citizens that can provide cheap labor and consume product, other nations keep sending money its way. On the one hand, however oppressively corrupt the Chinese government might be, the people in that nation have likely the same mix of good and bad as anywhere else. You can imagine that such a populace would produce superheroes. But would that government allow superheroes to exist at all? Would all "heroes" be forced to work as Government Agents, and thus become complicit in the atrocities of said government? Could you give China its own Avengers, or would the government only ever allow a Youngblood?

Basically, in a world where places like Europe and Asia had a similar superhuman population as North America, what would the face of the world look like? How would each culture shape its heroes, and shown by their real world fiction? And what governments make the very idea of superheroes hard to justify?
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Re: Truly International Superheroes

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Ares wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 5:29 am But then you imagine a place like China. While it has a healthy comic industry, the vast majority are martial arts themed books, with the occasional foray into other media. A major problem is the Chinese government, which is basically a human rights nightmare, but since it has almost a billion citizens that can provide cheap labor and consume product, other nations keep sending money its way. On the one hand, however oppressively corrupt the Chinese government might be, the people in that nation have likely the same mix of good and bad as anywhere else. You can imagine that such a populace would produce superheroes. But would that government allow superheroes to exist at all? Would all "heroes" be forced to work as Government Agents, and thus become complicit in the atrocities of said government? Could you give China its own Avengers, or would the government only ever allow a Youngblood?
I suspect China's superheroes would more resemble the X-Men, with a decidedly Water Margin influence, and that its official super-team would more resemble Freedom Force -- people who agree to work with/for the government but decidedly pursuing their own agenda in doing so.

Also, Champions 4/5/6E did rather well in portraying them as having a very large group, the Tiger Squad, who had heroic and villainous members who had to work together.
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Re: Truly International Superheroes

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Davies wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 7:12 am
Ares wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 5:29 am But then you imagine a place like China. While it has a healthy comic industry, the vast majority are martial arts themed books, with the occasional foray into other media. A major problem is the Chinese government, which is basically a human rights nightmare, but since it has almost a billion citizens that can provide cheap labor and consume product, other nations keep sending money its way. On the one hand, however oppressively corrupt the Chinese government might be, the people in that nation have likely the same mix of good and bad as anywhere else. You can imagine that such a populace would produce superheroes. But would that government allow superheroes to exist at all? Would all "heroes" be forced to work as Government Agents, and thus become complicit in the atrocities of said government? Could you give China its own Avengers, or would the government only ever allow a Youngblood?
I suspect China's superheroes would more resemble the X-Men, with a decidedly Water Margin influence, and that its official super-team would more resemble Freedom Force -- people who agree to work with/for the government but decidedly pursuing their own agenda in doing so.

Also, Champions 4/5/6E did rather well in portraying them as having a very large group, the Tiger Squad, who had heroic and villainous members who had to work together.
I always liked the 5E Champions setting, though there was some 4E bits that I feel should have been brought over (sue me, I actually LIKE Seeker). The Tiger Squad was always interesting, as the writers went out of their way to make clear that while the Tiger Squad was often adversarial to western superheroes and served a ... I'll be diplomatic and say ... "questionable" government, the Squad themselves were largely heroes who saved the day and helped people.

I could totally see Chinese superheroes being an X-Men like team that does good deeds while having to hide from their own government. It'd be a way for a world without the whole Mutant issue to still have that kind of team. It might even be interesting if the rest of the superhuman community vastly prefers the "X-Men" team because they tend to come off as more competent and generally heroic. To the point that maybe the X-Men-esque team is barely tolerated by the Chinese Government publicly, while still trying to get rid of them behind the scenes.

I could also potentially see things like heroes sticking to Hong Kong and Taiwan, but help China out in times of crisis.
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Re: Truly International Superheroes

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Ares wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 6:44 pm I could totally see Chinese superheroes being an X-Men like team that does good deeds while having to hide from their own government. It'd be a way for a world without the whole Mutant issue to still have that kind of team. It might even be interesting if the rest of the superhuman community vastly prefers the "X-Men" team because they tend to come off as more competent and generally heroic. To the point that maybe the X-Men-esque team is barely tolerated by the Chinese Government publicly, while still trying to get rid of them behind the scenes.
Though probably not employing giant robots to do so. That's more a Japanese thing. 8-)
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Re: Truly International Superheroes

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In my own setting, the official Chinese "super-team", the People's Liberation Army Para-Force, is actually a branch of the military. The members have ranks and uniforms, not code names and costumes. That kind of individuality draws attention to the individuals. Parahumans are expected (read: forced) to serve the people.

Now, that doesn't preclude the possibility of a Chinese vigilante team of supers, but it does mean such a team is clearly outside the law.

It also means that the Chinese representative to the United Nations Defense Initiative (the U.N.'s team of super-patsies) is actually a well-trained normal, and thus exempt from the army's parahuman branch.
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Re: Truly International Superheroes

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Ares wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 5:29 amSo over in Jab's thread the topic of Russian superheroes is currently being discussed
LOL, irony abound. I just finished doing a Russian superhero thing, writing an event day module for later in the year, set in Siberia, with The Protectorate (my settings equivalent of the Winterguard).
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Re: Truly International Superheroes

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A thread worthy of necromancy.

First, I agree that superhero sub-culture is an American product. USA has some cultural and political tendencies that gave birth to it. For example, USA politics have a much more prevalent anti-government tendency than some other countries, so heroes acting outside of the law get more sympathy from common folk and are more acceptable. When I read Civil War I couldn't understand at first why Captain America was on the rebellious side. He was a nationalist hero from an old era, so he was supposed to be pro-government in my eyes. It took me some research and reading to grasp that. Also privacy and personal space is strongly emphasized in western culture, so solo heroes keeping their identities secret and are not affiliated with any community would get more respect there.
Ares wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 5:29 am
Woodclaw's given his own perspective on European comics, and from what I can remember most comics are more likely to be Disney style funny animal and Science Fiction books than costumed heroes.

But then you imagine a place like China. While it has a healthy comic industry, the vast majority are martial arts themed books, with the occasional foray into other media. A major problem is the Chinese government, which is basically a human rights nightmare, but since it has almost a billion citizens that can provide cheap labor and consume product, other nations keep sending money its way. On the one hand, however oppressively corrupt the Chinese government might be, the people in that nation have likely the same mix of good and bad as anywhere else. You can imagine that such a populace would produce superheroes. But would that government allow superheroes to exist at all? Would all "heroes" be forced to work as Government Agents, and thus become complicit in the atrocities of said government? Could you give China its own Avengers, or would the government only ever allow a Youngblood?

Basically, in a world where places like Europe and Asia had a similar superhuman population as North America, what would the face of the world look like? How would each culture shape its heroes, and shown by their real world fiction? And what governments make the very idea of superheroes hard to justify?

Let me give you a little perspective into comic book culture in Turkey. Superhero sub-culture had a small presence till the twenty-first century. Most famous imported comic books were Zagor and Tom Mix; Zagor was popular enough to make it's way into references in popular culture. Asterix and Obelix was also mildly popular. The local comic books were pseudo-historical fiction with a big sword and sorcery influence. They were of italian comic tradition. Heroes of those series belonged to ancient turkic nomadic societies. Stories had a strong nationalist bent (without the influence of islam fortunately) and frequently seen erotic imagery.

These are from Karaoğlan ("Dark Boy") series. He is a smart and funny adventurer who is also a ladies man.

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In 90's Marvel cartoons began to air on tv and that was when age of superheroes started for most of us. I remember watching X-Men and Spiderman on a popular channel and Spidey was dubbed perfectly, even some jokes were localized. In 2000, a cartoon channel named Fox Kids aired and became very popular. It had Fantastic Four, The Incredible and Iron Man, so us nerdy milenials were introduced to Marvel universe before MCU. After getting a Disney account few weeks ago first thing I did is watching X-Men again. :D With the age of internet, nerd sub-culture in general has seen an overall boom and publishers began to import and translate more comics and manga, then MCU hit the scene. I must add more comics, mangas and animes have been translated and subtitled by fans than publishers between 2005-2013. Currently, American comic book industry and naturally superheroes dominate the comic book shelves.

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Ares, you like more four-color stories as far as I can see, so I tried that perspective but it really didn't fit in on the long run. Because government is much more active and dominant here, political indoctrination is integrated into education system, political polarization is even more strongly felt than Trump's USA and religion is a more powerful socio-political force. Also older people have a harder time grasping the concept of privacy :D . These conditions leave less space for classical superheroes. The heroes of our silver age (1960's-70's) would be modernist and secularist (still part-time muslim though :D ) men and women who fought against crime, illiteracy and "dark forces who want to bring down our republic and nation". Vigilantes or villains would be communist revolutionaries who wanted to bring the regime down and give the middle finger to NATO. So cold war theme in Journey into the Mystery (Thor's first issues) would fit.

Killing would be much more acceptable for turkish superheroes between early 90's and early 2000's, more so than Warren Ellis' Authority. We have lost around ten thousand people to terrorist attacks and guerilla warfare (without counting terrorist casualties) from the separatist-minority nationalist terrorist group during 90's. Policemen, teachers, government medical workers and civil servants were frequently shot or kidnapped then killed. I remember seeing terrorism victims in the news as a kid. In such an environment fighting to death would be more common. This terrorist group also handled and still handles the drug trade and many other petty crimes too, so even the less politically oriented heroes would have reasons to fight against them. Deep government were using mafia hitman and some paramilitary organizations as a counter-guerilla force against those terrorists, so in that era many vigilantes would be tolerated and sometimes supported by government. 90's anti-heroes would feel very much at home.

But after that time, during between 2007-2013 in the islamic-liberal era, current ruling regime would persecute them and media would demonize them as racists and murderers. This is the HUAC- McCarthy equivalent of Turkey and happened to many soldiers in real life. After 2013, semi-dictatorship regime would persecute any superhuman who didn't join it. Imagine J. Jonah Jameson was the president of USA, most of the judges were loyal to him and also most media organizations bowed to him. It would be kind of like Dark Reign but "The Avengers" are not random psychopaths but indoctrinated and less educated citizens. Super powers would be described as gift of Allah or curse of devil by the ruling party and many islamic cults. Some of the superhumans would be religious cult leaders themselves. So superheroes would face a "you are either one of us or against us" situation.

Superheroes and other nerdy material, apart from their usual functions, have worked as a political window for me into American culture. I wouldn't hear about McCarthy if i didn't read Wild Cards or M&M books. So i tried to open a small window for you guys.

I ran a game of few sessions last year. Turkey was devastated by demons in that earth and a civil war was taking place, like in Syria. They were fighting against ISIS (Islamic State) and were working for the secularist turkish faction. One pc was a alcoholic and drug addicted metalhead who bargained with a demon for power and fame. Another was a 14 years old girl, who had sorcerous powers and loved by djinni prince from since her childhood. Not a fatherly one, a pedophile one and this djinni tribe massacred his village too. The last one was a nationalist and mildly conservative soldier who had superhuman dexterity and agility and he was suffering from Lovecraftian fear every time the girl summoned her djinn bodyguard but still acted like an elder brother figure for her. Killing was naturally the default way of fighting, It wasn't talked about really, there was just in-game talk about young girl but she witnessed much worse anyway and willing to perform bloody rituals.
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