Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

General discussions about role-playing games. Share stories, ask for advice, talk about the industry, etc.
greycrusader
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:25 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by greycrusader »

I haven't gotten a chance to really read the quick starter rules for the Valiant setting in detail yet, let alone weigh them out, but here a few initial thoughts about what I've gleaned so far:

1. Options for making combat a bit more serious (including the re-introduction of lethal damage) opens up the game a bit for GMs who wish to play out Dark Age/Iron Age campaigns, street-level heroics, or more 'deconstructionist" settings (such as the worlds of Watchmen or George RR Martin's Wildcards series) which drop many of the four-color superhero genre tropes. Still, it seems counter-intuitive to suffer damage after succeeding on a Toughness check, so I might personally modify this simply out of a sense of game-aesthetics. Perhaps making the required check by 2 or less results in taking one Damage condition, succeeding by no more than 5 (1 full rank) means no damage but the loss of a standard action, and two or more degrees of success means the attack has no effect.

2. If the above damage rules are employed, the Impervious extra is more important than ever for gameplay (otherwise even a relatively weak attack can damage brick walls or steel doors), especially for genre accurate Paragon and Powerhouse characters. I do favor the option of Impervious simply reducing any damage condition from any attack effect below its rank by one level of severity, which MAY be how the "Invulnerability" power listed in the QS archetypes works (not certain if I'm interpreting those correctly).

3. I do like the rules for Reactions and a couple other of the more "tactical" combat options, though they might slow gameplay a bit.

4. The Overwhelm option (based on PRE) is a solid addition, but maybe a little too similar to Champions/HERO Games in its mechanic; maybe just a tweak or two to make it seem more M&M system-appropriate. Both DEX and PRE are rather cost-ineffective in the core rules, so modifications that allow charismatic leader types and "skill-monkeys" better balance with other heroic archetypes are welcome moves.

5. A few other rules seem like neat options to try out but not terribly crucial one way or another, such as the bonus/penalty dice, or changes to costs/rank of certain powers.

All my best!
Last edited by greycrusader on Mon Jan 22, 2024 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RUSCHE
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by RUSCHE »

With lethality of the Valiant Universe would ablative approach to toughness/invulnerability bea possible approach? I suppose we need to wait on the official release.
RainOnTheSun
Posts: 1133
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 7:20 am

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by RainOnTheSun »

Suffering damage on on a successful toughness check actually makes more sense to me, if you want every successful attack roll to to be a hit. If a normal person without any body armor rolls a 20 on a toughness save and completely resists damage from a gun or a knife, the only explanation that makes any sense is that they didn't actually get hit at all, no matter what the attack roll says.
scc
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:13 pm

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by scc »

Looking at the book and watching the recent youtube video talking about some of the changes here is what I understand for damage checks now. Damage is D20 plus 10 now instead of D20 plus 15. If you beat the Damage DC by 5 or more you take no damage conditions. So basically how it is now. They also mentioned how this might help defense shifted characters since it is better to not get hit at all.
User avatar
Davies
Posts: 5034
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by Davies »

Heh. I just realized an irony. One of my complaints about the 2E Iron Age supplement was that it focused almost exclusively on DC, Marvel and Image, with next to no reference to the other noteworthy independents of the period -- such as Valiant. And now that we're getting an Iron Age-focused version of the 3E rules ... I suspect this isn't exactly irony in the classical definition, but nevertheless.
"I'm sorry. I love you. I'm not sorry I love you."
Harnos
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:03 am

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by Harnos »

I liked some of the changes in toughness system considering it is a grim and gritty universe. Receiving 2-3 injuries\bruises will make combat more deadly and faster. Wounded condition seems good but it was already mentioned in Deluxe Gamemaster's Guide in optional lethality rules, it was just not clearly worded if the -5 penalty from disabled condition applied to toughness checks or not, they clarified that now. That makes sense, if you take a blow to a critical organ and such, everything would be harder for you, including resisting further blows. Though penalty die on average bring an -4 instead of -5 from 3e disabled. At first glance it seemed like all toughness checks are made at -5 penalty compared to normal 3e rules. This seems to negate the increased damage conditions for degrees of failure, except that you get a bruise\injury even with success. Characters seem to need a protection\force field kind of power to take no damage. I didn't like the default success bringing a damage without some power.
User avatar
Davies
Posts: 5034
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by Davies »

Okay, so Invulnerability as a power might not exist after all. Alex Thomas has posted on the Reddit indicating that there's going to be "an Extra you can purchase for individual character's Protection Effects called Hardened. For 1 pt/rank, if you gain two or more Degrees of Success on your Damage Resistance Check, you suffer no Conditions from the Damage. Which, accounting for the drop in Damage DC from 15+rank to 10+rank, means if you roll enough to beat the DC as if it were a standard 3e M&M attack, you don't take damage."

There is also talk of toggles that should allow for less (or, hehehe, more) punishing damage.
"I'm sorry. I love you. I'm not sorry I love you."
Harnos
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:03 am

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by Harnos »

Davies wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 4:12 am Okay, so Invulnerability as a power might not exist after all. Alex Thomas has posted on the Reddit indicating that there's going to be "an Extra you can purchase for individual character's Protection Effects called Hardened. For 1 pt/rank, if you gain two or more Degrees of Success on your Damage Resistance Check, you suffer no Conditions from the Damage. Which, accounting for the drop in Damage DC from 15+rank to 10+rank, means if you roll enough to beat the DC as if it were a standard 3e M&M attack, you don't take damage."

There is also talk of toggles that should allow for less (or, hehehe, more) punishing damage.
Yeah, it seems rather unnecessary and weirdly worded.
Davies wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 7:53 pm Heh. I just realized an irony. One of my complaints about the 2E Iron Age supplement was that it focused almost exclusively on DC, Marvel and Image, with next to no reference to the other noteworthy independents of the period -- such as Valiant. And now that we're getting an Iron Age-focused version of the 3E rules ... I suspect this isn't exactly irony in the classical definition, but nevertheless.
Lol :D
That Sullivan Guy
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by That Sullivan Guy »

Steve posted a link on Facebook to the PR blurb on GR's page about the game and I took the opportunity to ask if there were any additional skills into sub skills shifts that we hadn't already seen. Also, if the "new" skills being added in meant any change to skill costs in pp.

(1) No change in skill costs [stay 2:1]
(2) Between the blurb and the Quickstart, we've seen all the skill additions: Computer, Electronics, Mechanics; Drive, Pilot; Escape Artist, Thievery (Burglary), with "Sleight of Hand refocused on legerdemain and pick-pocketing and concealment"
RainOnTheSun
Posts: 1133
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 7:20 am

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by RainOnTheSun »

It's a small thing, but I have my doubts about separating Drive and Pilot. In a game where the ability to fly under your own power or even teleport is designed to be affordable, even one Vehicles skill can feel overpriced, let alone two.
User avatar
Davies
Posts: 5034
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by Davies »

The latest KS update included a copy of the stats they're using for Bloodshot. I think they just confirmed my "Resistance = Immunity, Limited to half effect" theory, but the most interesting thing about him is that they've left off the point totals for anything, just as they did for the characters in the Quickstart.
"I'm sorry. I love you. I'm not sorry I love you."
greycrusader
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:25 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by greycrusader »

Davies wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 4:12 am Okay, so Invulnerability as a power might not exist after all. Alex Thomas has posted on the Reddit indicating that there's going to be "an Extra you can purchase for individual character's Protection Effects called Hardened. For 1 pt/rank, if you gain two or more Degrees of Success on your Damage Resistance Check, you suffer no Conditions from the Damage. Which, accounting for the drop in Damage DC from 15+rank to 10+rank, means if you roll enough to beat the DC as if it were a standard 3e M&M attack, you don't take damage."

There is also talk of toggles that should allow for less (or, hehehe, more) punishing damage.
That...honestly seems over-complicated to me. It also still doesn't reflect how armor/invulnerability/force fields typically "work" in comics, though perhaps it fits the Valiant setting (I haven't read a Valiant book in years).

All my best.
User avatar
Davies
Posts: 5034
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by Davies »

New update.
  • Considering the apparent size of Dr. Mirage's Sorcery array, I now think it's possible that both Create and Move Object cost 3 points per rank instead of 2. (Pure speculation: Possibly both have had the ranges increased to Perception by default.)
  • Occult is no longer an Expertise skill, though it's still based on INT.
  • An advantage called Power Stunt exists, likely allowing a character to do so without Extra Effort.
"I'm sorry. I love you. I'm not sorry I love you."
User avatar
Davies
Posts: 5034
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by Davies »

New update ... I think the uses of the Benefit advantage may be getting a bit out of hand.
"I'm sorry. I love you. I'm not sorry I love you."
greycrusader
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:25 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Mutants and Masterminds partners with Valiant Comics

Post by greycrusader »

Haven't seen anything about that yet, Davies...would you elaborate?
Post Reply