Jab’s Power Profiles: Deleted 2nd Edition Powers- Ward! Area Effects!

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Batgirl III
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

Post by Batgirl III »

Concealment (Visual) is probably the only Effect in M&M3e that I do consider to be under-costed. Concealment (Auditory) is probably fine and Concealment (Olfactory)… well, honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever seen it purchased standalone, only ever seems to be used when a build has already gone so deep into Concealment for other stuff it’s easier just to go the full ten ranks and say “Concealment (all non-tactile senses.”
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

Post by FuzzyBoots »

The other common usage I've seen is, outside of Visual Concealment, if you're Concealed from one sense, you pay to get them all, because Accurate senses are all over the place.

Since M&M doesn't use grids usually, using the "pick a square to try to attack" is its own difficulty with Total Concealment.

May be worth discussing how "Attack Concealment" to model smoke bombs has all kinds of weird little adjustments to make it "fit" in the system. 2e Obscure of course, was its own power, albeit one that used the same Sense Type setup of Concealment. Personally, I think they should have done Obscure as a version of Environment Control.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Side note, I've always felt like there ought to be ways to at least confuse Tactile senses. Sure, without Insubstantial, they'll feel that they hit you, but it always felt weird that you couldn't make it such that you feel like the wall behind you, or a cloud of numbing gas that means no one inside can figure out what they're touching.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

Post by Shock »

There are lots of neat uses for Concealment that I think make sense for the cost. Default visual is about the only one that really causes a problem. Some of my favorites are Concealment to:
Mental (Null Mind)
Infrared (No heat signature)
Cameras
Radar

And Attack Concealment is just a really janky mechanic. It doesn't handle it well at all. Concealment implies you don't detect things. When things like Smoke Bombs, white noise, radar chaff are present, you know something is there but the sense trying to pick something out is confused. In my opinion, it's a completely different effect.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Comprehend! Communication!

Post by Davies »

FuzzyBoots wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:29 pm Side note, I've always felt like there ought to be ways to at least confuse Tactile senses. Sure, without Insubstantial, they'll feel that they hit you, but it always felt weird that you couldn't make it such that you feel like the wall behind you, or a cloud of numbing gas that means no one inside can figure out what they're touching.
I'd say that first one, at least, is Illusion (tactile). The second one, yeah, that's Concealment.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by squirrelly-sama »

honestly I wish there was tactile immunity for people who can do things like pickpocket you, place something on you, or otherwise do some benign interaction you won't notice without actually seeing the after effects. Like a limited Insidious modifier.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by Batgirl III »

squirrelly-sama wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:09 am honestly I wish there was tactile immunity for people who can do things like pickpocket you, place something on you, or otherwise do some benign interaction you won't notice without actually seeing the after effects. Like a limited Insidious modifier.
That’s what the Sleight of Hand Skill is for. Minor feats of legerdemain (i.e., palming an key) where the observers aren’t actively looking for it are a mere DC 10 and if they are actively paying attention it’s an opposed Slight of Hand vs. Perception check. Actively interacting with another person (i.e., picking a pocket or planting something on them) is opposed Sleight of Hand vs. Perception check.

It’s really easy to min/max this skill for a PL 8+ hero.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by squirrelly-sama »

Batgirl III wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:27 am
squirrelly-sama wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:09 am honestly I wish there was tactile immunity for people who can do things like pickpocket you, place something on you, or otherwise do some benign interaction you won't notice without actually seeing the after effects. Like a limited Insidious modifier.
That’s what the Sleight of Hand Skill is for. Minor feats of legerdemain (i.e., palming an key) where the observers aren’t actively looking for it are a mere DC 10 and if they are actively paying attention it’s an opposed Slight of Hand vs. Perception check. Actively interacting with another person (i.e., picking a pocket or planting something on them) is opposed Sleight of Hand vs. Perception check.

It’s really easy to min/max this skill for a PL 8+ hero.
you could say the same thing about various powers and similar skills. Safe Fall is just acrobatics. Concealment is just Stealth. Wall Crawl is just athletics. etc. I just feel like a full on concealment from touch would be nice, especially since it's a limited version of slight of hand.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by Batgirl III »

So… Precise Insubstantial with a descriptor?
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by Spectrum »

Power Profiles: Illusion has a discussion of using affliction for illusions.

Could it be used with area of effect for smoke clouds?
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by Shock »

Spectrum wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:05 pm Power Profiles: Illusion has a discussion of using affliction for illusions.

Could it be used with area of effect for smoke clouds?
Cloud area would be a good base for that. A side effect is that you'd get a save when you enter the cloud and if you make it, you can see through the smoke. Probably a matter of opinion whether that's a good thing or not.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by EternalPhoenix »

Ehhh. I don't like it. Flash bomb type effects affects the target's vision directly, requiring a save. Smoke bomb type effects are more passive. To me, at least, they're not something that gets saved against. They're something that's small enough avoided or can be countered by other effects like how smoke can be blown away by wind or concussive effects. I'd like to keep the two different, at least at my metaphorical table.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by Batgirl III »

Affliction makes for a much more efficient to play smoke bomb than a Concealment Attack:

Smoke Bomb Affliction X (Resist: Awareness; Recover: Awareness; Conditions: Impaired, Disabled, Unaware; E: Area [Cloud], Cumulative; Flaw: Instant Recovery, Limited to Visual Senses) [ 1 PP per Rank ]
EternalPhoenix wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:03 pm Ehhh. I don't like it. Flash bomb type effects affects the target's vision directly, requiring a save. Smoke bomb type effects are more passive. To me, at least, they're not something that gets saved against. They're something that's small enough avoided or can be countered by other effects like how smoke can be blown away by wind or concussive effects. I'd like to keep the two different, at least at my metaphorical table.
Build the Affliction power, as above, to a mere five ranks and it will only cost 1 Equipment Point. Five ranks is good enough that most minions, mooks, goons, and henchmen will fail the vast majority of the time. Yet proper supervillains will usually only be mildly inconvenienced with a -2 or -5 penalty… And supervillains with appropriate Effects that will be able to counter the Affliction Effect (e.g., a wind controller blowing away the cloud or a power-suit wearer with exotic sensory abilities) won’t be affected for long if at all.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Alternately, like I said, Environmental Control makes sense as long as you don't mind defining a "can't use this sense/sense type" option. It does miss a Fades setup like with 2e Independent.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! COncealment!

Post by EternalPhoenix »

Hmm. Perhaps I'm being closeminded. I'll think for a while.
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