Deflect, Lifting Strength and Throwing Distance

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Harnos
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Deflect, Lifting Strength and Throwing Distance

Post by Harnos »

I have few questions about rules I don't fully understand.

1) Deflect power is limited by power level as it is stated in Hero's Handbook. But does the same limit applies when defending another character? Let us say I have a 10 level PC with Dodge 8, Parry 8, Toughness 12 and my main power array lets me have Deflect 12. Another pc, Speedster have Dodge 15, Parry 15 and Toughness 5. I can only use 8 ranks of Deflect for myself as far as I understand. But can i use Deflect 12 for other pc Speedster?

2)Throwing Distance Rank = Strength Rank - Mass Rank in HH.
However, the maximum mass you can lift over your head or just off the ground is not stated. A PC with lifting strength 11 can throw a tank (50 tons-mass rank 11) 30 ft (distance rank 0) away. But this doesn't explain the maximum lifting mass.

Maybe substracting 2-3 ranks from throwing distance and accepting the total strength + power-lifting rank as the maximum amount the character can lift over his head works. But I'm not sure about that and i would like to know if there is an official answer. I also would like to learn your house rules.
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Batgirl III
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Re: Deflect, Lifting Strength and Throwing Distance

Post by Batgirl III »

1A) Yes; Deflect is an Active Defense for the user of the Effect, so it “trades off” against your Toughness, just like Parry or Dodge would. Note, also, that any portion of your Toughness that derives from active defenses (most commonly Defensive Roll) doesn’t apply. Note, you normally cannot have so many ranks in Deflect that you would “break cap,” but your GM may allow you to do so if those extra ranks don’t apply… But that’s getting into house rule territory.

1B) Yes; Another character can benefit from your Deflect, because you are essentially replacing them as the target of the attack.

2) Maximum lifting mass is your Strength Rank.
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RainOnTheSun
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Re: Deflect, Lifting Strength and Throwing Distance

Post by RainOnTheSun »

This is technically a house rule, but I personally interpret the strength rank as the maximum a character can press over their heads, Marvel handbook style. A deadlift is a rank higher, and strength is treated as a rank or two lower for calculating throwing distance. It just makes everything fit together a bit more cleanly to me.
Harnos
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Re: Deflect, Lifting Strength and Throwing Distance

Post by Harnos »

Batgirl III wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:43 pm 1A) Yes; Deflect is an Active Defense for the user of the Effect, so it “trades off” against your Toughness, just like Parry or Dodge would. Note, also, that any portion of your Toughness that derives from active defenses (most commonly Defensive Roll) doesn’t apply. Note, you normally cannot have so many ranks in Deflect that you would “break cap,” but your GM may allow you to do so if those extra ranks don’t apply… But that’s getting into house rule territory.

1B) Yes; Another character can benefit from your Deflect, because you are essentially replacing them as the target of the attack.

2) Maximum lifting mass is your Strength Rank.
Thanks for the answer. Why doesn't Defensive Roll apply when using active defense?

The problem with strength is that a STR 11 (50 tons) guy can throw the 50 tons mass 30 feet away by rules as written so it cannot be the maximum mass he lifts.
Harnos
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Re: Deflect, Lifting Strength and Throwing Distance

Post by Harnos »

RainOnTheSun wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:56 pm This is technically a house rule, but I personally interpret the strength rank as the maximum a character can press over their heads, Marvel handbook style. A deadlift is a rank higher, and strength is treated as a rank or two lower for calculating throwing distance. It just makes everything fit together a bit more cleanly to me.
Thank you. I was thinking about doing something like that too.
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Batgirl III
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Re: Deflect, Lifting Strength and Throwing Distance

Post by Batgirl III »

Harnos wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:22 pm Thanks for the answer. Why doesn't Defensive Roll apply when using active defense?

The problem with strength is that a STR 11 (50 tons) guy can throw the 50 tons mass 30 feet away by rules as written so it cannot be the maximum mass he lifts.
Per the description of how the Defensive Roll Advantage works, it is considered an active defense. The rules for the Deflect Effect explicitly state “[y]ou use your Deflect rank in place of an active defense.”

I’m not seeing how a character being able to throw the weight he can lift is a problem.
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Harnos
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Re: Deflect, Lifting Strength and Throwing Distance

Post by Harnos »

Batgirl III wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:53 pm
Harnos wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:22 pm Thanks for the answer. Why doesn't Defensive Roll apply when using active defense?

The problem with strength is that a STR 11 (50 tons) guy can throw the 50 tons mass 30 feet away by rules as written so it cannot be the maximum mass he lifts.
Per the description of how the Defensive Roll Advantage works, it is considered an active defense. The rules for the Deflect Effect explicitly state “[y]ou use your Deflect rank in place of an active defense.”

I’m not seeing how a character being able to throw the weight he can lift is a problem.
Thank you for the explanation on active defense. I couldn't express myself clearly about strength, sorry for that. Let us say my paragon has strength of11. 11 ranks of mass means 50 tons. By RAW, paragon can throw a 50 tons tank 30 ft because Throwing Distance 0 (30 ft) = Strength (11) - Mass Rank (11). If he is able to throw a 50 tons tanks, he should be able to deadlift much more than 50 tons. If a power-lifter can lift 400 kilograms barely of the ground, he cannot throw a weight that heavy meters away. The weight you can deadlift should be more than you can throw meters away.
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Batgirl III
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Re: Deflect, Lifting Strength and Throwing Distance

Post by Batgirl III »

Ahh… I see where you’re coming from on the lifting/throwing thing now. All I can say is that M&M isn’t intended to be that granular, it doesn’t concern itself with unencumbered carrying capacity, maximum deadlift, maximum dragging capacity, and so forth. By default, it’s a very simple all-or-nothing. STR 12 means 100 Tons is something you can lift, carry, throw, or whatever, but 100 Tons plus one ounce is too much.

This is due to two main reasons. First, emulating the comics by making Strength (like everything else) all about the story effect and narrative description than a matter of simulation-driven details. Second, is attempting to keep things relatively straightforward in a game where PC’s Strength levels will range from “eighty-pound weakling” to “average dude” to “Olympic athlete” to “throws tanks” and potentially all the way up to “juggles planets for fun.” Maybe beyond!

If you do need a hero to push their lifting capacity beyond the max, don’t forget that Extra Effort and Power Stunts are in the game for a reason!
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FuzzyBoots
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Re: Deflect, Lifting Strength and Throwing Distance

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Jab has a bit of a breakdown of strength here, but as noted, the system is not really meant to be that granular, or realistic. You could pick some lower rank as the base deadlift, like distance rank -2, 6 ft, which would basically mean you could toss something into the next square if you were using a grid system. 2e had a more granular system, but one of the things they did in third edition was to simplify all of that out.
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Harnos
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Re: Deflect, Lifting Strength and Throwing Distance

Post by Harnos »

FuzzyBoots wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:46 pm Jab has a bit of a breakdown of strength here, but as noted, the system is not really meant to be that granular, or realistic. You could pick some lower rank as the base deadlift, like distance rank -2, 6 ft, which would basically mean you could toss something into the next square if you were using a grid system. 2e had a more granular system, but one of the things they did in third edition was to simplify all of that out.
Thank you. I will check the Jab's article and maybe look at 2e rules.
Harnos
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Re: Deflect, Lifting Strength and Throwing Distance

Post by Harnos »

Batgirl III wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:31 pm Ahh… I see where you’re coming from on the lifting/throwing thing now. All I can say is that M&M isn’t intended to be that granular, it doesn’t concern itself with unencumbered carrying capacity, maximum deadlift, maximum dragging capacity, and so forth. By default, it’s a very simple all-or-nothing. STR 12 means 100 Tons is something you can lift, carry, throw, or whatever, but 100 Tons plus one ounce is too much.

This is due to two main reasons. First, emulating the comics by making Strength (like everything else) all about the story effect and narrative description than a matter of simulation-driven details. Second, is attempting to keep things relatively straightforward in a game where PC’s Strength levels will range from “eighty-pound weakling” to “average dude” to “Olympic athlete” to “throws tanks” and potentially all the way up to “juggles planets for fun.” Maybe beyond!

If you do need a hero to push their lifting capacity beyond the max, don’t forget that Extra Effort and Power Stunts are in the game for a reason!
I see. It is workable as it is, but I guess i will tweak it little bit.
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