[OOC] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

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jmucchiello
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by jmucchiello »

Tony Jones wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:52 pm Just thinking about Takedown, you're right it does seem very much intended for hand to hand combatants. How would the 'adjacent targets' thing work with a ranged power? Particularly something like perception ranged?

I ask partly out of general interest, and partly because Exemplar has the first rank of it, and I'm wondering whether to get rid of it...
I didn't take any area of effect powers because I took Takedown 2. I'd hate to have to retool again. But banning a common advantage seems like the kind of thing to do early in the process. I'm not sure what the real problem is. They're minions.
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Gunmetal_Rainbow
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by Gunmetal_Rainbow »

Tony Jones wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:52 pm Just thinking about Takedown, you're right it does seem very much intended for hand to hand combatants. How would the 'adjacent targets' thing work with a ranged power? Particularly something like perception ranged?

I ask partly out of general interest, and partly because Exemplar has the first rank of it, and I'm wondering whether to get rid of it...
"Splash" damage?
kenmadragon
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by kenmadragon »

Tony Jones wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:52 pm Just thinking about Takedown, you're right it does seem very much intended for hand to hand combatants. How would the 'adjacent targets' thing work with a ranged power? Particularly something like perception ranged?

I ask partly out of general interest, and partly because Exemplar has the first rank of it, and I'm wondering whether to get rid of it...
Mechanically or thematically?

Mechanically, well the first rank is written like so:
https://www.d20herosrd.com/5-advantages#TOC-TAKEDOWN-COMBAT-RANKED-2- wrote:If you render a minion incapacitated with an attack, you get an immediate extra attack as a free action against another minion within range and adjacent to the previous target’s location. The extra attack is with the same attack and bonus as the first. You can continue using this advantage until you miss or there are no more minions within range of your attack or your last target.
Which means the "next minion" has to fall under two qualifications:
A) within range of your attack;
B) Adjacent to the minion that was just incapacitated.

So for Ranged Attacks like your Telekinetic Blast, part A isn't much of an issue in most cases -- if Minion 1 was within range of the initial blast, odds are good that Minion 2 probably is two. The real question then becomes with whether Minion 2 is adjacent to Minion 1. If they are, then you can attack Minion 2 and see if you hit -- and if Minion 2 goes down, you can check if Minion 3 is adjacent to Minion 2 and attack them - and so on and so-forth.

For Perception Ranged attacks like Mental Blast... well, you no longer need to confirm whether you attack would hit - you just hit. Otherwise, same check for Qualification B would apply.

Thematically, Takedown 1 with your Telekinetic Blast might be something like flinging a TK-thrust into one minion that topples into the rest like dominoes or bowling pins, or a "mini-wave" of TK energy that knocks them all off their feet and stuff. Takedown 1 with your Mental Blast... I have no freaking clue how that would look like descriptor-wise.
Gunmetal_Rainbow wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:29 pm "Splash" damage?
Yeah, that.
jmucchiello wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:20 pm I'm not sure what the real problem is. They're minions.
I feel like there's a "Minion Rights" joke to be made here, but I'm not sure whether to reference Stormtroopers, Bob the Hydra Agent, Venture Bros, or Despicable Me. :mrgreen:
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Gunmetal_Rainbow
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by Gunmetal_Rainbow »

I do think Takedown can be a bit silly strong. It's very strong with ranged characters who don't even need to move between targets.

I almost feel like there should be a penalty imposed on each consecutive attack that reduces the odds of the two requirements from being met, since, as it is, you're just as likely to incapacitate the first minion as you are the last one.

First thought would be -1 to the attack roll, but perception range defeats that (of course paying for the privilege), but -1 rank makes a bit more sense as the effect could be seen to be buffered by the previous Minion taken out.

Just my two cents on Takedown
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Gunmetal_Rainbow
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by Gunmetal_Rainbow »

jmucchiello wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:20 pm I'm not sure what the real problem is. They're minions.
Hypothetically, the GM springs a bunch of minions and group is ready to enjoy a battle. An easy one maybe, but they get to flex their powers a bit, but the first hero to go has takedown 2, wipes out the minions single-handed leaving the rest of the group potentially unhappy as they didn't get to do anything.

Minions exist for heroes to show off without being in much danger, to flew and show off a bit, and to set the scale against the inevitable big boss villain who will be much tougher to take out.

I think being able to take out swathes of minions is just fine, but I also think it's important to let everyone have a piece.
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Doctor Malsyn
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by Doctor Malsyn »

My personal gripes with the advantage silly as they may be, are why I'm experimenting with the 'Epic variant' minion bit. Other than that, we'll run the advantage as normal for now. If I still feel combat is too easy or somehow goes too quickly, I might want to fine tune the advantage itself. I'm not a game designer though, so. :shrug:

I'd always read it as adjacent to the targets, not to the player themselves.

Sensory stuff is probably fairly easy as long as you have the Shards handling the bulk of it all. They take in all the actual information, and selectively transfer that to players who have the apropriate abilities.
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jmucchiello
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by jmucchiello »

Gunmetal_Rainbow wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:43 pm
jmucchiello wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:20 pm I'm not sure what the real problem is. They're minions.
Hypothetically, the GM springs a bunch of minions and group is ready to enjoy a battle. An easy one maybe, but they get to flex their powers a bit, but the first hero to go has takedown 2, wipes out the minions single-handed leaving the rest of the group potentially unhappy as they didn't get to do anything.

Minions exist for heroes to show off without being in much danger, to flew and show off a bit, and to set the scale against the inevitable big boss villain who will be much tougher to take out.

I think being able to take out swathes of minions is just fine, but I also think it's important to let everyone have a piece.
And when the guy with takedown is sitting on his ass because the next BBEG is immune to toughness, the other characters can shine. Everyone doesn't have to shine in every combat.
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Doctor Malsyn
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by Doctor Malsyn »

Give and take, combat be. It's a balancing game for us all. U-U
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Gunmetal_Rainbow
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by Gunmetal_Rainbow »

Doctor Malsyn wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:12 pm Give and take, combat be. It's a balancing game for us all. U-U
This.

It's not necessarily about everyone shining, but getting a chance to have fun. Fighting a bbeg and fighting minions is a very different experience.

Powers don't land as reliably for example, so it can be a frustrating experience and a more tense scene.

While fighting minions is more cathartic and ideally let's everyone just have some easy fun.

I would absolutely hope the character that can sweep minions isn't utterly useless against the bbeg. That's just as not fun as everyone rolling initiative only to do nothing while the entire goon squad gets oneshot by someone with takedown before the initiative count ticks through.
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Tony Jones
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by Tony Jones »

Having had a think, would you be OK if I changed Exemplar from PL10/150 points to PL9/165 points?
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Doctor Malsyn
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by Doctor Malsyn »

If you'd like to, sure.
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pathfinderq1
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by pathfinderq1 »

Well, this certainly seems to be the most "crunchy" discussion I've seen during the character submission stage. I'm going to go back and catch up with the day's discussion so far- it looks like there is some Takedown talk, which I probably ought to read (speedster has Takedown 2, Kaiju has Takedown for some of her forms, though the Monkey Suit version is to use the original minion target as a flail against follow-up targets).

Back in a bit.
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Tony Jones
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by Tony Jones »

Doctor Malsyn wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:22 pm If you'd like to, sure.
Thanks. Done now. I felt like broader and more flexible powers fitted her better than straight raw power. Anyway, hopefully the updated version works for you!
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Doctor Malsyn
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by Doctor Malsyn »

Seems alright on a glance through, no problems spotted on my end. All good.
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kenmadragon
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Re: [Recruitment] [3e] Superheroics Unlimited - The MMVR

Post by kenmadragon »

Tony Jones wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:23 pm Thanks. Done now. I felt like broader and more flexible powers fitted her better than straight raw power. Anyway, hopefully the updated version works for you!
Out of curiosity, am I understanding this power correctly: Exemplar's Mental Masking power means that so long as she's not attacking or making an effect-check (which is most of her array except Teleport and Remote Sensing, I think), she's basically invisible to mental-scans? Would that include making her impossible to target with Mind Reading, or just make her un-perceived by the Mental Sense-Type (whether that be Senses or Remote Sensing)?

Either way, just gotta say I love the idea of that power - it's a very clever way of Exemplar being able to pass as "normal" to other psychics... right until she decides to show they how dangerous she is. It's a very neat effect for something that other psychics probably wouldn't see coming!
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