Lifting Strength vs Grabbing Strength

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CaptainKaulu
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Lifting Strength vs Grabbing Strength

Post by CaptainKaulu »

On Reddit, I've gotten into a debate about whether these are the same thing in M&M3e. (With one guy downvoting everything I say, le sigh.)

I've always assumed these are separate statistics for a character. If I want a Grabbing specialist, I buy Strength (Limited to Grabbing), not Power-Lifting.

The guys on Reddit are claiming that these are the same thing. Their argument is that Move Object, which can perform Grabs, is literally just Lifting Strength with Increased Range. Their secondary argument is that this would be better balanced (since STR = 2 PP/rank = 1 PP for Damage + 1 PP for Lifting + 0.5 PP for Athletics is closer than if you add +1 PP for Grabbing into the mix too).

I'm not sure I take Move Object = Lifting Strength with Increased Range that literally, as Power Effects often work slightly differently than they "should." And I definitely don't believe enough in the balance of Abilities to accept their balance argument at face value. (And balance-wise, I don't mind if Strength is actually "worth" 3.5 instead of 2.5 PP/rank for characters who use all aspects of it.)

Is there anywhere in the rules, or in the devs' statements of RAI, that supports the Redditors' views?
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Davies
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Re: Lifting Strength vs Grabbing Strength

Post by Davies »

CaptainKaulu wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:24 pm On Reddit, I've gotten into a debate about whether these are the same thing in M&M3e. (With one guy downvoting everything I say, le sigh.)

I've always assumed these are separate statistics for a character. If I want a Grabbing specialist, I buy Strength (Limited to Grabbing), not Power-Lifting.

The guys on Reddit are claiming that these are the same thing. Their argument is that Move Object, which can perform Grabs, is literally just Lifting Strength with Increased Range. Their secondary argument is that this would be better balanced (since STR = 2 PP/rank = 1 PP for Damage + 1 PP for Lifting + 0.5 PP for Athletics is closer than if you add +1 PP for Grabbing into the mix too).

I'm not sure I take Move Object = Lifting Strength with Increased Range that literally, as Power Effects often work slightly differently than they "should." And I definitely don't believe enough in the balance of Abilities to accept their balance argument at face value. (And balance-wise, I don't mind if Strength is actually "worth" 3.5 instead of 2.5 PP/rank for characters who use all aspects of it.)

Is there anywhere in the rules, or in the devs' statements of RAI, that supports the Redditors' views?
This IS basically how Super-Strength worked in 2e, with each rank of the power giving +5 to lifting strength and +1 to make Grapples, so I get where they're coming from. But no, I'm pretty sure that there's nothing in the rules as written that supports this.
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Ken
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Re: Lifting Strength vs Grabbing Strength

Post by Ken »

They're full of it.

There is no power Lifting Strength. There is Enhanced Strength, with the limitation Lifting Only on it. And as you say there is Enhanced Strength, with the limitation Grabbing Only. One could even make a power Enhanced Strength, with the limitation Lifting and Grabbing Only on it; or Enhanced Strength, does no damage. Trying to balance the costs of those various limitations is an exercise for the GM since only the one is explicitly dealt with in the RAW.

But that said, comparing the power Move Object to Enhanced Strength, Lifting Only is a complex process that goes beyond the range component. A character with Move Object, No Range has, for example, the ability to untie herself when she is tied up. This is not an ability that comes with Enhanced Strength. Ranks in Sleight of Hand and a skill roll, might allow someone to untie themselves. Enhanced Strength won't. Move Object does. In fact an argument might be made for Move Object, limited to lifting. This would be Move Object that doesn't allow for grappling or manipulating or throwing.

Also, there could similarly be a power Move Object, limited to grappling, or Move Object, limited to throwing. Each would have different reasons for existing, and the special effects might be weird. The latter is essentially the ability to turn anything into a projectile. The former could be a paralysis power built in a way that doesn't involve Affliction.

Anyway, the point is there are enough different things that one could do with Enhanced Strength or Move Object that while certain advantages or limitations might make them similar, one would need far more of them then the few your fellow Redditors state, to make them the same.
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RainOnTheSun
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Re: Lifting Strength vs Grabbing Strength

Post by RainOnTheSun »

FWIW, if you compare Move Object with no range to a theoretical "Enhanced Strength, Limited to nondamaging uses", the main advantage Enhanced Strength would have over Move Object would be that it adds onto the character's existing Strength score, whereas Move Object has to start from zero. On the other hand, as Ken said, Move Object with no range would let a character apply force without using their limbs.
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catsi563
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Re: Lifting Strength vs Grabbing Strength

Post by catsi563 »

Just my own two cents I allow Power lifting to be used in all strength based options except any that do damage so its effectively strength with no damage component
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Re: Lifting Strength vs Grabbing Strength

Post by FuzzyBoots »

I think it's a GM call based on the perceived utility of what you get. The usual reason for Power-lifting is to be able to lift more than PL would allow for straight Strength, so of course, any grabbing bonus would be limited in accordance to attack bonus. But past that, I don't necessarily see any harm in allowing "Power Lifting" to apply to grabbing, since that attack is typically kind of limited, due to it being resisted by the greater of an attack (Strength) or defense (Dodge), and allowing the higher of Athletics or Acrobatics to escape,
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Re: Lifting Strength vs Grabbing Strength

Post by catsi563 »

FuzzyBoots wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:42 pm I think it's a GM call based on the perceived utility of what you get. The usual reason for Power-lifting is to be able to lift more than PL would allow for straight Strength, so of course, any grabbing bonus would be limited in accordance to attack bonus. But past that, I don't necessarily see any harm in allowing "Power Lifting" to apply to grabbing, since that attack is typically kind of limited, due to it being resisted by the greater of an attack (Strength) or defense (Dodge), and allowing the higher of Athletics or Acrobatics to escape,
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