The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

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NoOneofConsequence
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

For the longest time, I kept wanting to see a follow up to the original Watchmen where some hero or another stumbles across that reality 20+ years later, and all that is left is Dr. Manhattan and a post nuclear war wasteland. When asked about this, Manhattan would explain that after the initial shock of the fake alien attack wore off and no new signs of them appeared, the world and its governments went back to business as usual and a nuclear war still happened anyway. Because history doesn't end just because someone performed some grandiose action as the climax of their personal psychodrama.
What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
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Ares
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Ares »

A thing I hate about Watchmen is the idea that the Comedian and Adrian are somehow right about the nature of humanity, because no one actually pushes back against them in any meaningful way. In another story, Dan would have been the one to talk back and offer counter arguments to all the BS they were slinging, but Moore had to make the Ted Kord analogy into someone relatively spineless.

It's extra annoying because Adrian's act is treated like some necessary tragedy, when it's really a man feeding his own ego. Adrian had access to Dr. Manhattan. He had time to burn, virtually unlimited resources, a genius intellect, access to folks like John and Dan, some of the greatest minds on the planet, and the best he could come up with was getting rid of John and faking an alien invasion.

There had to have been better methods. Hell, John can make an unknown number of copies of himself. With all of that power, resource and political pull, Adrian could almost certainly have worked on a quieter plan that would have maybe taken longer, and maybe wouldn't have let him "win" over the rest of the world, because he would have had to work with other people openly and as equals to make it happen.

If Watchmen is a tragedy, it's because Adrian isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is, and he almost certainly made a bad situation worse. It relies so much on the worst aspects of humanity winning out to where it's just mired in misery, to the point I can't really take it seriously at times.
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Davies
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Davies »

Ares wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:09 pm
It's extra annoying because Adrian's act is treated like some necessary tragedy, when it's really a man feeding his own ego.
Eh. I question the necessary tragedy bit. The way that some of his last lines reference the Black Freighter story-within-a-story, about a man who commits horrific acts to prevent a threat that ultimately existed only in his mind, suggests that Moore intends for him to be understood as mistaken. As is the fact that, as I've said before, the Outer Limits episode that his plan was inspired by exists in that reality.
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NoOneofConsequence
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

For anyone interested, a pair of essays about Watchmen from the long gone QuarterBin site of 20 yrs ago.


The moral compass of Watchmen: https://web.archive.org/web/20040821210 ... pol17.html

The political world of Watchmen: https://web.archive.org/web/20040821211 ... pol25.html
What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)
csyphrett
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by csyphrett »

Ares wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:09 pm A thing I hate about Watchmen is the idea that the Comedian and Adrian are somehow right about the nature of humanity, because no one actually pushes back against them in any meaningful way. In another story, Dan would have been the one to talk back and offer counter arguments to all the BS they were slinging, but Moore had to make the Ted Kord analogy into someone relatively spineless.

It's extra annoying because Adrian's act is treated like some necessary tragedy, when it's really a man feeding his own ego. Adrian had access to Dr. Manhattan. He had time to burn, virtually unlimited resources, a genius intellect, access to folks like John and Dan, some of the greatest minds on the planet, and the best he could come up with was getting rid of John and faking an alien invasion.

There had to have been better methods. Hell, John can make an unknown number of copies of himself. With all of that power, resource and political pull, Adrian could almost certainly have worked on a quieter plan that would have maybe taken longer, and maybe wouldn't have let him "win" over the rest of the world, because he would have had to work with other people openly and as equals to make it happen.

If Watchmen is a tragedy, it's because Adrian isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is, and he almost certainly made a bad situation worse. It relies so much on the worst aspects of humanity winning out to where it's just mired in misery, to the point I can't really take it seriously at times.
On one hand, I agree that Adrian could have run for president or congress and instituted his changes through the system. He was smart enough for that.

On the other hand, he didn't win a lasting peace. He thought he had because people stepped back and looked around for a second, but he forgot some key points like the fact that without Dr. Manhattan around, there was no reason for the Soviet Union not to attack, that he would have to keep making squids and dropping them, that eventually he would be dead and someone would find out what he had done by going through his effects.

Basically he killed 5 million people for nothing, and wakes up to that after Dr. Manhattan tells him nothing ends. You can see it on his face.

It must have hurt his ego that Rorshach, a man who basically was dumber and more emotional, was right, and he was wrong.
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csyphrett
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by csyphrett »

NoOneofConsequence wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:34 am For anyone interested, a pair of essays about Watchmen from the long gone QuarterBin site of 20 yrs ago.


The moral compass of Watchmen: https://web.archive.org/web/20040821210 ... pol17.html

The political world of Watchmen: https://web.archive.org/web/20040821211 ... pol25.html
I don't know if I agree with his assessment, but Moore obviously didn't know they limited terms for presidents before Jon Osterman became Dr. Manhattan and started putting electrical car chargers everywhere.
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NoOneofConsequence
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

I think there may have been a mention somewhere of that amendment getting repealed, but I may be Mandella Effecting it.

As an aside, I always thought the film's opening should have skipped the low hanging fruit of the Grassy Knoll and instead shown Comedian taking out Oswald, with the idea that Kennedy got reelected and ended up being the one who deployed Manhattan to South - and possibly also North - Vietnam.
What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)
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Davies
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Davies »

NoOneofConsequence wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:25 pm I think there may have been a mention somewhere of that amendment getting repealed, but I may be Mandella Effecting it.
You're not, it's mentioned in issue four that "The papers are full of the President's proposed constitutional amendment, allowing him to run next year [1976] for a third term." I view the success of this as less plausible than the giant blue man; your mileage may vary.

EDIT: Ares, this topic is drifting quite a bit from discussion about petty stuff that posters would do as comics creators; should a new thread about "Watching the Watchmen With Annoyance" be started?
I'm not fourteen hundred years old! I've been sixteen years old fourteen hundred times, but I'm definitely not fourteen hundred years old! If you can't get that through your skull, I'm divorcing you!
Tsukasa Tsukuyomi, in
Fly Me to the Moon, by Kenjiro Hata
Jabroniville
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Jabroniville »

Or y’all can wait for my Watchmen builds next month :P.

But it’s also important that Adrian specifically is treated as so smart that he can predict the future, and this is shown to be accurate in-story. So he has good reason to think that his way is correct. Like, Moore didn’t clumsily come into dumb answers- he out his WORK in.

And then that fat kid reaches for a random journal that could undo everything…
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