What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by M4C8 »

NoOneofConsequence wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:57 am So, any thought's on the X-Men's Hellfire Ball and their ... interesting fashion choices?

Personally, I'm wondering why Rachel Summers is wearing something that looks like it's trying to fetishize what she wore as a slave in the alternate future she originally came from. Maybe it's a subtle cry for help?
Most of them look good, a couple are a bit weird (Nightcrawler for example), I dislike the look of Iceman, Prodigy, Prestige (Rachel), Khora, Sunspot, Warpath and Wiz-Kid (not so much the suit but the head bowl and pale face/lipstick part)

I've seen some comments saying Jean should use this design as her new costume, I agree (though for purely practical reasons I'd get rid if the bit of fabric covering the back of her legs)
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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NoOneofConsequence wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:57 am So, any thought's on the X-Men's Hellfire Ball and their ... interesting fashion choices?

Personally, I'm wondering why Rachel Summers is wearing something that looks like it's trying to fetishize what she wore as a slave in the alternate future she originally came from. Maybe it's a subtle cry for help?
I’m thinking that the relationship between artists and cosplayers has gotten out of hand.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Batgirl III wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:40 pm
NoOneofConsequence wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:57 am So, any thought's on the X-Men's Hellfire Ball and their ... interesting fashion choices?

Personally, I'm wondering why Rachel Summers is wearing something that looks like it's trying to fetishize what she wore as a slave in the alternate future she originally came from. Maybe it's a subtle cry for help?
I’m thinking that the relationship between artists and cosplayers has gotten out of hand.
I came to that conclusion around the time someone cited that the Motorcycle Leathers Batgirl costume (which I didn't care for) is good specifically on the grounds that it's easy to cosplay.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Ares wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:44 pm
Batgirl III wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:40 pm
NoOneofConsequence wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:57 am So, any thought's on the X-Men's Hellfire Ball and their ... interesting fashion choices?

Personally, I'm wondering why Rachel Summers is wearing something that looks like it's trying to fetishize what she wore as a slave in the alternate future she originally came from. Maybe it's a subtle cry for help?
I’m thinking that the relationship between artists and cosplayers has gotten out of hand.
I came to that conclusion around the time someone cited that the Motorcycle Leathers Batgirl costume (which I didn't care for) is good specifically on the grounds that it's easy to cosplay.
Ugh. The whole “Bargirl of Burnside” thing is just... Ugh. Possibly one of the single worst things to ever happen to the Batgirl character (and I’m including Alicia Silverstone in that list).

The costume, the storyline, the supporting cast, the character motivation... All of it would have been perfect for Stephanie Brown as Batgirl. Not one iota of it makes any damn sense for Barbara Gordon.

And, yes, the artist who designed the costume specifically said they wanted something that would be easy for cosplayers to make. IIRC, the full-body [s]Warbird[/s] Captain Marvel costume was designed with cosplayers in mind too.

(Which seems in my admittedly non-cosplaying opinion like kind of an insult to cosplayers. Like, most cosplayers I know pride themselves on the challenge of making difficult costumes into real objects.)
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

Batgirl III wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:55 pm
Ares wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:44 pm
Batgirl III wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:40 pm

I’m thinking that the relationship between artists and cosplayers has gotten out of hand.
I came to that conclusion around the time someone cited that the Motorcycle Leathers Batgirl costume (which I didn't care for) is good specifically on the grounds that it's easy to cosplay.
Ugh. The whole “Bargirl of Burnside” thing is just... Ugh. Possibly one of the single worst things to ever happen to the Batgirl character (and I’m including Alicia Silverstone in that list).

The costume, the storyline, the supporting cast, the character motivation... All of it would have been perfect for Stephanie Brown as Batgirl. Not one iota of it makes any damn sense for Barbara Gordon.

And, yes, the artist who designed the costume specifically said they wanted something that would be easy for cosplayers to make. IIRC, the full-body [s]Warbird[/s] Captain Marvel costume was designed with cosplayers in mind too.

(Which seems in my admittedly non-cosplaying opinion like kind of an insult to cosplayers. Like, most cosplayers I know pride themselves on the challenge of making difficult costumes into real objects.)
Ah well, it could be worse. They could have had Barbara join Gotham's version of Antifa in her final issue as some kind of shoe-horned political move and a middle finger to the people not buying the book.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Has anyone else read Busiek's new book for Marvel?

The title is The Marvels and I really don't know how to make out of it. It's well written, but it looks like one of those continuity soups that only Busiek can sort out. In spite of this the reaction from the readers looks extremely positive.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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I heard it's good, but i haven't had a chance to read it yet myself.
The fact it's a Busiek book mean's you'll need to get every issue or you'll loose the plot. :)
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Woodclaw wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:02 pm Has anyone else read Busiek's new book for Marvel?

The title is The Marvels and I really don't know how to make out of it. It's well written, but it looks like one of those continuity soups that only Busiek can sort out. In spite of this the reaction from the readers looks extremely positive.
I'm stunned that he brought back Ace after thirty-five years, I'm thrilled that Aero is going to be featuring in this, and I think this is going to be a lot of fun. Looking forward to issue #2, in two weeks.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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So DC recently did a comic book celebrating their Asian superheroes. It was . . . a mixed bag. Most frustrating of which was the inclusion of a new hero, the Monkey Prince. I'm someone who's a fan of the Monkey King/Sun Wukong story/mythology, and in my own homebrew setting my Justice League equivalent has a Monkey King character on the roster.

But this story was . . . not good. It was nice seeing the classic Dr. Sivana back in his old Mad Scientist form (naturally without any explanation how he changed from a lightning-eyed sorcerer to a mad scientist), and I like the idea of tying one mythological teen to another. But this Monkey Princes is a jackass rather than just kind being impulsive like the original Sun Wukong, which doesn't help when he's opposite Nu-Shazam, who is also a jackass. And of course, the Monkey Prince thinks "superheroes suck". I'm sure the plan is for him to grow out of it, but I'm not sure what's in store for DC with the latest shift at Warner Bros.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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I'm increasingly coming to believe that one of the reasons manga is slaughtering American comics in sales is that manga seems to be written by people who think that being a superhero (or some supernatural or alien variation) who sincerely wants to do good is actually something cool to aspire to.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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And after this month I'm done following Dan Slott's Fantastic Four.

Despite being generally well written and having actually set up some nice ideas, how Slott handled Johnny over the last couple of months put a pretty big stop to my enjoyment of the series. It's kind of ironic, since Johnny is the character I always liked the least of the First Family, but unless Slott is about to ass-pull a solution to make Johnny more mature the shit is about to hit every fan in room.

For those who don't know, during the "Point of Origin" storyline (a soft reboot of the origin of the F4), Johnny met Sky, an alien superhero with avian-based powers. It turned out that when Reed's original probe scouted her world, she mind-linked to Johnny and they became "intended", soul-matched partners. Apparently, this is the reason behind Johnny's pretty disastrous love-life, he was searching for "reflections" of Sky in every woman he met.
This was mostly played for laugh, with family and friends poking fun at Johnny, who seemed genuinly freaked out but also commited to this new relationship. During the entire time, Sue became pretty much a "helicopter sister", constantly following Johnny around trying first to push the lovebirds apart, later trying to "save" Johnny from another heartbreak... because this isn't creepy at all right!
Anyway, when Reed and Val managed to bring the Future Foundation back to Earth, Lyja the Skrull came back with it, prompting a series of very awkward moments. Johnny told Sky about all his relationships and she was pretty pissed that he had been so busy while she waited for him all the way.
Moreover, Lyja was apparently still holding the torch (pun intended) and tried to get in bed with Johnny five minutes later, only for him to slam the door in her face, telling that there was never love between them just her mission. This is a classic Slott moment, when he tries to force his personal interpretation of a past event (for reference, look at his interpretation of the first encounter between She-Hulk and Titania during Secret Wars).
So, Johnny seemed at least very commited... or not. During a soiree at the Latverian embassy, Lyja arrived posing as Sky, only to run into the real one halfway through. Before they could lash at each other, a superhero battle ensued and Victorious (Doom's right hand woman, or Herald) joining the fray alongside the three love-stuck idiots. During the battle, Lyja struck the right buttons, pushing Sky to doubt herself, pretty much telling that Johnny was an explorer first, so it was dumb to think he would fall for a girl from a planet or recluses and xenophobes.
In the aftermath, Sky left telling Johnny she needed some time away from him. Lyja tried to push her agenda, but as soon as Johnny said no she had a change of heart and disappeared (the truth however is that Alicia Masters was controlling her with a bit of her dad's clay, because Slott is really pushing the idea that Lyja is like...Alicia's nemesis or something).
So what was Johnny going to do?
Apparently, he decided that a one-night stand with Victorious (with who he flirted unreciprocated a couple of times) was the solution. So Johnny Storm is now a cheater.

This whole piece is a bit one-sided, I know, but I'd like to point out one thing: Johnny Storm has never been portrayed as a genius, but he was always pretty serious about his crushes and, as far as I know, never cheated except under some kind of weird circumstances. His biggest problem was that he was star-struck every day of the week, twice on holidays.
Moreover, even if he's not a genius, Johnny is emotionally intelligent enough to know right from wrong, so I really doubt that he would cheat on a woman that he's mind-linked with or another that knew him so well to be able to get under his skin three times (as Alicia, Bridget O'Neil and Laura Green).
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Woodclaw wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:46 pm For those who don't know, during the "Point of Origin" storyline (a soft reboot of the origin of the F4), Johnny met Sky, an alien superhero with avian-based powers. It turned out that when Reed's original probe scouted her world, she mind-linked to Johnny and they became "intended", soul-matched partners. Apparently, this is the reason behind Johnny's pretty disastrous love-life, he was searching for "reflections" of Sky in every woman he met.
Image

I hate stuff like this, right along with there needing to be a "reason" why Iceman had so many failed relationships. It's couldn't just be that both were horny young men who easily got attached to attractive women, and who gradually over time became more mature. No, it's got to be that one of them was in the closet (IE, Jean Grey imprinted her own yaoi fanfiction onto Bobby), and that the other was soul-bound to an alien as his one true love.

It's just a pointless retcon to create equally pointless drama in the least organic way possible.
This was mostly played for laugh, with family and friends poking fun at Johnny, who seemed genuinly freaked out but also commited to this new relationship. During the entire time, Sue became pretty much a "helicopter sister", constantly following Johnny around trying first to push the lovebirds apart, later trying to "save" Johnny from another heartbreak... because this isn't creepy at all right!
Image

This reminds me of several times where male heroes have been been taken advantage of and it was treated like a joke, rather than a serious issue. Northstar getting mind controlled by Purple Girl to be her boy toy, Thor getting mind controlled by Moon Dragon to be her sex slave, Nightwing being tricked by Mirage into having sex with her by posing as Starfire, even Johnny getting tricked into marrying and sleeping with Lyja when she was pretending to be Alicia.

The latter situation was the only one treated with any real seriousness, but the issue there was more that Alicia had been kidnapped and that Lyja had lied to Johnny, rather than Johnny basically being a victim of long term emotional manipulation and essentially rape.

I mean, you flip the genders in any of these situations and they becomes a deeply uncomfortable quickly.

So the fact that Johnny's friends and family, the folks who are supposed to have his back, laugh about Reed essentially forcing a relationship on Johnny via a probe is just honestly kind of heartbreaking. The idea that Sue, generally the most mature and responsible of the Four alongside Reed, would interfere with her younger brother's love life like that, is kind of disgusting.
Anyway, when Reed and Val managed to bring the Future Foundation back to Earth, Lyja the Skrull came back with it, prompting a series of very awkward moments. Johnny told Sky about all his relationships and she was pretty pissed that he had been so busy while she waited for him all the way.

Moreover, Lyja was apparently still holding the torch (pun intended) and tried to get in bed with Johnny five minutes later, only for him to slam the door in her face, telling that there was never love between them just her mission. This is a classic Slott moment, when he tries to force his personal interpretation of a past event (for reference, look at his interpretation of the first encounter between She-Hulk and Titania during Secret Wars).
So, Johnny seemed at least very commited... or not. During a soiree at the Latverian embassy, Lyja arrived posing as Sky, only to run into the real one halfway through. Before they could lash at each other, a superhero battle ensued and Victorious (Doom's right hand woman, or Herald) joining the fray alongside the three love-stuck idiots. During the battle, Lyja struck the right buttons, pushing Sky to doubt herself, pretty much telling that Johnny was an explorer first, so it was dumb to think he would fall for a girl from a planet or recluses and xenophobes.

In the aftermath, Sky left telling Johnny she needed some time away from him. Lyja tried to push her agenda, but as soon as Johnny said no she had a change of heart and disappeared (the truth however is that Alicia Masters was controlling her with a bit of her dad's clay, because Slott is really pushing the idea that Lyja is like...Alicia's nemesis or something).

So what was Johnny going to do?

Apparently, he decided that a one-night stand with Victorious (with who he flirted unreciprocated a couple of times) was the solution. So Johnny Storm is now a cheater.
Image

WHAT. IN. THE. ACTUAL. F***?!?!

I just . . . Holy Moley, this is insane.

You're right about the retcon of Johnny and Lyja and Slott forcing his own opinion on past events. Like you said, him changing Titania's first encounter with She-Hulk to give her some kind of complex, rather than Jen being one of Titania's first opponents and one of the strongest women in Marvel, so Titania's desire to show she's the strongest was a natural thing.

Lyja and Johnny's relationship was complicated. They both did love each other, but the relationship was built on a major deception that naturally created friction (IE, drama). This could be seen as Johnny trying to justify why he won't get back together with her, a lie he is telling himself, but it could just as easily be Slott's interpretation of events.

Slott having Alicia being so willing to use Mind Control Clay on people is . . . troubling. I don't think Slott understands what a morally questionable act this is for someone who is intended to be pretty wise, compassionate, understanding and wholesome. Mind Control is not something done lightly, and there's a reason most telepathic heroes shy away from, or at least used to when superheroes (and the writers) had stronger moral codes.

The real thing is the idea that Johnny would not only cheat, but cheat with someone he had zero personal history with is just insane (and no, flirting with a villain is not personal history, Johnny is an incorrigible flirt). Johnny is a lot of things, but one thing he's never been is a cheater. He flirts because he's someone desperately looking for love, and in every relationship he's been in, he's been extremely devoted to his partner. One of the worst things about his break up with Crystal was that she did so by cheating on Johnny with Quicksilver. Later, when Crystal tried to get Johnny to cheat on Alicia/Lyja, Johnny shut her down because that wasn't the kind of man he was.

Johnny Storm is NOT a cheater.

The fact that Dan Slott would nmake Johnny a cheater shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. The fact that he naturally made Johnny cheat with one of Slott's own creations just comes off as bad fanfiction. Granted, Slott had Johnny cheat on one of his creations with a different creation, so it's basically a fanfiction trifecta.
This whole piece is a bit one-sided, I know, but I'd like to point out one thing: Johnny Storm has never been portrayed as a genius, but he was always pretty serious about his crushes and, as far as I know, never cheated except under some kind of weird circumstances. His biggest problem was that he was star-struck every day of the week, twice on holidays.

Moreover, even if he's not a genius, Johnny is emotionally intelligent enough to know right from wrong, so I really doubt that he would cheat on a woman that he's mind-linked with or another that knew him so well to be able to get under his skin three times (as Alicia, Bridget O'Neil and Laura Green).
Agreed. I don't know if Slott is just trying to generate melodrama, but I've found that for every good aspect of his series, there's at least one bad aspect to counter it. And now it sounds like those bad aspects are starting to pile up.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Woodclaw »

Ares wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:47 pm I hate stuff like this, right along with there needing to be a "reason" why Iceman had so many failed relationships. It's couldn't just be that both were horny young men who easily got attached to attractive women, and who gradually over time became more mature. No, it's got to be that one of them was in the closet (IE, Jean Grey imprinted her own yaoi fanfiction onto Bobby), and that the other was soul-bound to an alien as his one true love.

It's just a pointless retcon to create equally pointless drama in the least organic way possible.
I agree, although in the context of the story I found this idea less jarring than Bobby being in the closet.
Ares wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:47 pm This reminds me of several times where male heroes have been been taken advantage of and it was treated like a joke, rather than a serious issue. Northstar getting mind controlled by Purple Girl to be her boy toy, Thor getting mind controlled by Moon Dragon to be her sex slave, Nightwing being tricked by Mirage into having sex with her by posing as Starfire, even Johnny getting tricked into marrying and sleeping with Lyja when she was pretending to be Alicia.

The latter situation was the only one treated with any real seriousness, but the issue there was more that Alicia had been kidnapped and that Lyja had lied to Johnny, rather than Johnny basically being a victim of long term emotional manipulation and essentially rape.

I mean, you flip the genders in any of these situations and they becomes a deeply uncomfortable quickly.

So the fact that Johnny's friends and family, the folks who are supposed to have his back, laugh about Reed essentially forcing a relationship on Johnny via a probe is just honestly kind of heartbreaking. The idea that Sue, generally the most mature and responsible of the Four alongside Reed, would interfere with her younger brother's love life like that, is kind of disgusting.
When I said "played for laughs" I meant that when Sky introduced Johnny as her "intended" everybody from Reed to Wyatt to Bobby Drake kind of rolled their eyes and started quoting Johnny's many past flames (from Crystal onward), forcing him shush them.
Apparently Sue being a stalker is Slott's idea of her "looking after" Johnny, ignoring the fact that she had some much bigger problems back home, between Franklin's identity crisis following the loss of his powers and Val going through a "boys suck" phase after discovering that her first crush has a harem with multiple wives and concubines.

As for the general cavalier attitude toward characters being emotionally and sexually abused (regardless of gender)... I'm not going to dwelve too deep into it, but I do remember some friends of mine (who are very intelligent people) saying stuff like "If [insert random actress/model/whatever] is going to rape me, I'm not going to resist". There is this really deeply seated idea that having sex is a universally good thing from a man's perspective. Maybe it's because I'm demisexual, but I was never able to see the appeal of it.
Mechanical pleasure? Sure.
Anything beyond that? I would just feel a terrible disgust of myself.
Ares wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:47 pm WHAT. IN. THE. ACTUAL. F***?!?!

I just . . . Holy Moley, this is insane.

You're right about the retcon of Johnny and Lyja and Slott forcing his own opinion on past events. Like you said, him changing Titania's first encounter with She-Hulk to give her some kind of complex, rather than Jen being one of Titania's first opponents and one of the strongest women in Marvel, so Titania's desire to show she's the strongest was a natural thing.

Lyja and Johnny's relationship was complicated. They both did love each other, but the relationship was built on a major deception that naturally created friction (IE, drama). This could be seen as Johnny trying to justify why he won't get back together with her, a lie he is telling himself, but it could just as easily be Slott's interpretation of events.

Slott having Alicia being so willing to use Mind Control Clay on people is . . . troubling. I don't think Slott understands what a morally questionable act this is for someone who is intended to be pretty wise, compassionate, understanding and wholesome. Mind Control is not something done lightly, and there's a reason most telepathic heroes shy away from, or at least used to when superheroes (and the writers) had stronger moral codes.

The real thing is the idea that Johnny would not only cheat, but cheat with someone he had zero personal history with is just insane (and no, flirting with a villain is not personal history, Johnny is an incorrigible flirt). Johnny is a lot of things, but one thing he's never been is a cheater. He flirts because he's someone desperately looking for love, and in every relationship he's been in, he's been extremely devoted to his partner. One of the worst things about his break up with Crystal was that she did so by cheating on Johnny with Quicksilver. Later, when Crystal tried to get Johnny to cheat on Alicia/Lyja, Johnny shut her down because that wasn't the kind of man he was.

Johnny Storm is NOT a cheater.

The fact that Dan Slott would nmake Johnny a cheater shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. The fact that he naturally made Johnny cheat with one of Slott's own creations just comes off as bad fanfiction. Granted, Slott had Johnny cheat on one of his creations with a different creation, so it's basically a fanfiction trifecta.
The only part about this that I found actually interesting is the bit about Alicia using the mind-control clay. She already did it once in Slott's run to force her dad, the Puppetmaster, to give his blessing to her marriage with Ben, because she knew that Ben wouldn't accept otherwise. When Ben found out about this (when the Puppetmaster tried to crush their honeymoon), he was more understanding than I expected, telling the Puppetmaster that this meant that Alicia wanted to be with him more than anything and that he could either accept it or stuff it, even so he asked her to give in the clay to destroy it. Alicia did so, but kept a piece.
The general idea seem to be to put Alicia, arguably one of the most compassionate and moral characters ever, on a slippery slop. So far she used the clay to protect her family, especially her Skrull daughter, N'Kalla, who is deadly afraid of Lyja and regards her as "the most terrifying soldier the Empire ever created".
Now, it's true that Lyja has been one of the most successful infiltrators of the Skrull Empire, being able to play the long game like no one else. At the same time N'Kalla has some kind of obsession with Alicia, who she considered her personal "guardian angel" during training, so it stand to reason that she's deadly afraid of Lyja as the "fake Alicia". Even so, I think that Alicia and Lyja actually had some kind of heart-to-heart (albeit off panel) between FF #376 and #377.
Ares wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:47 pm Agreed. I don't know if Slott is just trying to generate melodrama, but I've found that for every good aspect of his series, there's at least one bad aspect to counter it. And now it sounds like those bad aspects are starting to pile up.
My guess is that Slott is trying to create some drama in preparation for this month's issue, which will celebrate the anniversary of the series with the wedding of Doctor Doom and Victorious. Of course, the entire first family is invited since Reed will be the best man.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

I'm kind of surprised Slott has been able to stay away from Twitter long enough to actually write.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

Any thoughts on the United States of Captain America?
What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
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