Jab’s Builds! (Lawnmower Man! Samus Aran! Metroids!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
Skavenger
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:56 pm
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA

Re: Jab’s Builds (The Joker! Bag O'Bones! Harold! The Ventriloquist!)

Post by Skavenger »

I always liked the Arnold Wesker Ventriloquist (though my hands keep wanting to type "Albert Wesker"), there's been a few interesting stories told with him, such as the fact that he's immune to the Psycho Pirate for...reasons, and there was a heartbreaking story told about him in the comic based on the animated series.

However, he's also in my file of "examples of times writers decided Batman should just beat on people who need help" after the Quakemaster storyline, in order to get the goons that used to support Wesker to support the new "Batman" territory, he just starts pounding on a tied up and defenseless Wesker, who's screaming for help and crying in pain.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24801
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

The Ventriloquist (Shauna Belzer)

Post by Jabroniville »

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THE VENTRILOQUIST III (Shauna Belzer)
Created By:
Gail Simone & Fernando Pasarin
First Appearance: Batgirl #20 (July 2013)
Role: Split Personality Foe, Legacy Villain
Mental Problems: Dissociative Identity Disorder, Anger Issues (Scarface), Wimpiness & Non-Confrontationalism (Wesker)

-Wow, okay, I OWN these issues, and totally forgot about the "New 52" Ventriloquist. Shauna Belzer was a telekinetic who was ignored by her parents and peers in favor of her twin brother Ferdie. She later used them to kill her brother and others, making it look like an accident. She then saw a dummy named Ferdie at a birthday party, killing the clown who was using him- she then killed her parents and did a ventriloquist act that would usually end with a dead audience. YUP- New 52 Bat-Comic. She ends up joining the new Secret Six alongside Catman and others- they are victimized by the Riddler because one of them stole a priceless diamond from him- it turns out this was Ferdie the doll, his persona being so separate from Shauna's that she didn't even realize he was the thief. In the final issue of the series, Shauna betrays the team and abandons Ferdie, and ends up using a sock puppet as her new doll.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24801
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Batgirl (Barbara Gordon)

Post by Jabroniville »

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BATGIRL I (Barbara Gordon, aka Oracle)
Created By:
Gardner Fox & Carmine Infantino
First Appearance: Detective Comics #359 (Jan. 1967)
Role: Lesser Sidekick, Plucky Girl, Computer Hacker
Mental Problems: None, really
PL 9 (181)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 6
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 6
INTELLIGENCE 5 AWARENESS 4 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 7 (+13)
Athletics 7 (+9)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 3 (+13)
Deception 5 (+8)
Expertise (Computers) 13 (+18)
Expertise (Streetwise) 4 (+9)
Expertise (Current Events) 11 (+16)
Insight 3 (+7)
Investigation 7 (+11)
Perception 6 (+10)
Persuasion 4 (+7)
Ranged Combat (Batarangs) 4 (+13)
Stealth 4 (+10)
Technology 4 (+9)
Vehicles 2 (+8)

Advantages:
Agile Feint, Beginner's Luck, Contacts, Defensive Attack, Eidetic Memory, Equipment 12 (Bat-cycle, Utility Belt, Costume +1), Evasion, Fast Grab, Hide in Plain Sight, Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Critical (Batarangs), Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Jack-of-All-Trades, Luck, Prone Fighting, Ranged Attack 3, Set-Up, Takedown 2, Teamwork, Tracking, Uncanny Dodge, Well-Informed

Powers:
"Expert Martial Artist" Strength-Damage +1 [1]
"Eidetic Memory" Quickness 4 (Flaws: Limited to Visual Scans -2) [1]

Equipment:
"Bat-cycle" Motorcycle (Medium, Strenght 1, Speed 6- 120 mph, Defense 10, Toughness 8, Remote Control (11)

"Utility Belt"
Camera, CommLink, Audio Recorder, Handcuffs, Binoculars, Mini-Tracer, Night Vision Goggles, Flashlight, Gas Mask, Multi-Tool, Rebreather, Cutting Torch (12)
"Grapple Gun" Movement 1 (Swinging) (2)

"Choking Gas" Affliction 6 (Fort; Dazed & Vulnerable/Defenseless & Stunned/Incapacitated) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Cloud +2, Ranged, Extra Condition) (Diminished Range -1) (29) -- (32)
  • AE: "Batarangs" Blast 3 (Feats: Homing, Ricochet) (Extras: Multiattack) (Diminished Range -1) (10)
  • AE: "Smoke Pellets" Concealment (Visuals) 2 (Extras: Attack, Area- 30ft. Cloud +2) (10)
-- (57 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +13 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Batarangs +13 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Choking Gas +6 Area (+6 Affliction, DC 16)
Initiative +9

Defenses:
Dodge +14 (DC 24), Parry +14 (DC 24), Toughness +3 (+4 Costume), Fortitude +5, Will +9

Complications:
Motivation (Justice)- As the daughter of a Police Commissioner, Barbara is as focused on the law as anyone.
Responsibility (Gotham City)- Batgirl considers herself Gotham's protector.
Relationship (Dick Grayson)- Dick & Barbara engage in some light or serious flirtation, and are sometimes treated like Star-Crossed Lovers.
Relationship (Commissioner Gordon)- Batgirl's father is the light of her life.
Relationship (Black Canary, Huntress)- The girls are very close, though often bicker, after being close partners for years.
Enemy (The Joker, The Penguin, etc.)- All of Batman's Rogues also want Batgirl dead. The Joker, in particular, is responsible for crippling her.
Reputation (Lawless Vigilante)- Batman is generally more frightening to the people of Gotham, but what Batgirl does is still technically illegal.
Rivalry (Power Girl)- They HATE each other.
Disabled (Wheelchair-Bound)- Paralyzed by The Joker for the years, Barbara had different stats- losing her Martial Artist Strike, Agility, Acrobatics & Athletics, Stealth, and mobility.

Total: Abilities: 78 / Skills: 84--42 / Advantages: 40 / Powers: 2 / Defenses: 19 (181)

Barbara Gordon- From TV to Big Name Comic Character:
-Barbara Gordon really turned out great. As the second Batgirl (the first- using a hyphen so it's technically a different name because hyphens are SERIOUS BUSINESS- created mainly so Batman & Robin wouldn't look so gay- was Bette Kane, created in the 1950s), she was probably more famous for being played by the Uber-Goddess Yvonne Craig in the 1960s TV series, but she got some play in the Bat-books as well, as a sexy PhD Librarian who beat up criminals on the side. The change in comics & TV was ordered by Julius Schwartz, who wanted a new female counterpart to Batman out there. Introduced as Barbara Gordon, the Suddenly-Introduced Daughter of longtime character Commissioner Gordon (hah- he got Black Lighning'd), she was REALLY popular amongst girls, being a butt-kicking, super-smart girl who wasn't just some victim, and I've read some very good things about her solo appearances (which I don't think ever sold particularly well).

-And as BatgirlIII has noted, being the HEAD LIBRARIAN of Gotham City's Public Library is actually a very serious job- it'd have to be one of the biggest in America. It ALSO meant that she couldn't have just been some kid, either- a Ph.D. takes a GOOD chunk of time, unless she did some Michael Holt-style "Fast Learning". This was a link to the Women's Lib movement of the late 1960s (you'll see a LOT of Archie Comics around the same period make mention of it directly, since they're generally even LESS subtle that superhero comics about their moral standing). Naturally, she still used a "Bat-Purse" and looked pretty young- barely out of her teens.

Batgirl Disappears:
-Batgirl proved to be pretty popular, appearing in a lot of late '60s, early '70s stories, usually as a back-up or major character in Bat-Family books. She reveals her secret identity to her father (who'd already figured it out), became a member of the U.S. House of Representatives, and retires from superheroics for a year before popping back up again, often pairing up with the younger Dick "Robin" Grayson. However, Batgirl soon disappeared. Stuff stopped being made with her around the early '80s (Dick had moved on to the Teen Titans full-time), and by 1988, she formally retired. Also, they actually friggin' forgot she was Gordon's DAUGHTER, and suddenly-made her this adopted daughter/neice thing because Miller wrote Batman: Year One and Gordon had a young son- neither he nor the editor caught it.

-Then, because she was going un-used, Alan Moore decided to use her as a Joker Victim in The Killing Joke. Now, that story's a VERY good, classic tale. It brings a level of horrific seriousness to comics that usually hadn't been seen- Barbara is shot in her home, stripped down and had photographs taken of her by the Joker, all in an attempt to drive her father insane. It's HORRIFYING, and dreadfully-invasive to the character. Unfortunately, not only is she basically used as a voiceless victim in the story (the book is pretty much entirely about Gordon & Batman's reaction to the maiming), but there's some behind-the-scenes stuff where Moore asked permission to maim her, and Len Wein was basically like "Cripple the bitch!" because they just weren't going to be using her, so why not? Moore himself would go on the record as saying he regretted this action, calling it "shallow and ill-conceived".

Barbara Becomes Oracle:
-John Ostrander and his wife Kim Yale found the story highly-distasteful, and decided to "rescue" her- she was placed in the background of Suicide Squad, where she is eventually revealed to be the identity of the mysterious Oracle, the wheelchair-bound Computer Genius who aids the team. Ostrander basically became her "Daddy", taking her to various books, and revealing this solidly-empowering tale of a crippled woman who fights to "matter" despite her disability. And, ironically, it's this crippled, wheelchair-bound version of the character that means more to comics, and is a more beneficial aide to super-heroes.

-Ostrander's run on her led to Birds of Prey, featuring her as a mega-star in a ludicrously-slashy relationship with Black Canary as bickering-but-loving partners. Chuck Dixon took over the character, keeping it going, and soon Gail Simone took over the book, falling for the character as well (Simone, a bookish woman with red hair, somehow found something to appreciate with the red-haired librarian Barbara Gordon). She joined the Justice League in Morrison's run, becoming the official "Information Person" for the entire superheroic community. Much was made of her disability- it became a bit odd that she was stuck in a chair since SUPER-SCIENCE was so common, but by this point, she'd become an iconic hero for ACTUAL people with physical disabilities, so DC was hesitant to "fix" her legs.

-She also got hooked up to Dick Grayson around BoP, and they sorta-got treated like "Star-Crossed Lovers" who could never QUITE manage to hook up full-time, somewhat leaving out the Dick/Starfire pairing (that'd kind of gotten stupid & played out in Teen Titans). And we got THREE MORE BATGIRLS (if you count the brief time when Huntress called herself that), plus a Batwoman and a Huntress, making her ultra-redundant should she ever return to the cape & cowl. And everyone calls her "Babs", which I HATE, because it sounds stupid. DIE DIE DIE BABS!
-And then of course while she's being crippled Oracle she gets a new lease on life in Batman: The Animated Series, as the adorably innocent Batgirl, who dresses as Batman to exonerate her father of wrongdoing and then becoming a side-character ally- even Batman's forced to accept her help.

Batgirl Returns:
-When DC rebooted their entire line, they FINALLY, FINALLY made her uncrippled, and did the right political move by having the new Batgirl series written by Gail Simone, her current "owner" as far as characterization went. It was revealed that a state-of-the-art computer chip had allowed her to walk again. However, this series... was kind of a downer. It was rather mediocre, with a lot of villains that were ALMOST memorable, but just failed to really take hold (especially "Evil Rich Girl Who Murders Criminals"). Part of the problem is I think Barbara works best as part of an ensemble, and having her as a solo act with one sarcastic roommate (who hilariously-revealed herself as trans in such a casual way that never got referred to again that I FORGOT ABOUT IT and had to re-check my issues because it got mentioned online) and some weak romantic sub-plots, just didn't work.

-It didn't help that DC seems OBSESSED with ensuring that every single Bat-Family member must constantly be miserable all the time, which turned the book into kind of a morose mess, especially in dealing with her mother (who was given some weird backstory as to why she'd abandoned the family) and brother James (a cold-hearted serial killer, because UGH THAT IS SO DUMB). Gail at points recruited fans to yell at DC for her ("As of now, I am no longer the writer of Batgirl" *cute fan outrage, as Gail was a fan favorite to the growing underclass of devoted left-wing fans* "Yay I'm back on the book!"), and threw DC under the bus for forcing her to make the book more and more grim- this was an accusation lobbed by EVERYBODY, so was not just sour grapes on her part.

Batgirl- The Babs Tarr Run:
-It's kind of funny that DC enforced such darkness on the Bat-Books, because the Babs Tarr Batgirl run has completely-reversed course, and turned it into a completely-different book. Using such a different Barbara that she's an entirely different character- a young, nervous, exciteable young college student who has NOTHING in common with her former grim, obsessive self. With a funny crew of almost-self-consciously-multiracial college buddies, a VERY "Indie"-type art style, and more, it got a lot of creative love. It hit pretty big (though the same target audience was PISSED when a villain was revealed as a male disguised as a woman- be careful when you go Full Liberal, folks- nothing is more evil to them than trying to match them and not being good enough at it). I always rolled my eyes at her romantic and business lives, too- she has a black boyfriend for no other reason than to have a black boyfriend (he's barely IN the book since he had his own!), and she forms a company right out of college called "Gordon Clean Energy" despite all her creative stuff being about computers, and I swear it's only because that's "A Cause". But hey- Babs Tarr was wonderful on art- she did fantastic facial expressions, wonderful character designs, and had a great, fun energy to her fight and action scenes. Once she stopped drawing it (for the wild Motor Crush), I lost interest and dropped the book.

Batgirl As a Whole:
-Personally, I love Barbara as a character- the long red hair and Bat-costume is a great visual look (though I love the TV show using a wig for her "cover"), she's a super-genius Sexy Librarian, and generally plays well off of the rest of the DC Universe by being equal parts the most NORMAL of them, and kind of manipulative and bitchy (as Oracle). Part of why she's such a good character is how well she works in teams, dealing with other characters.

Batgirl's Stats:
-As a fighter, Batgirl is PL 8 on offense, PL 8.5 on defense- she retired early (before The Huntress even came on the scene), and didn't have as much "cred" as a fighter as her contemporaries. However, she is VERY intelligent, and easily the most-capable member of the Bat-Family outside of Bruce in terms of intellectual pursuits. Her Hacking & Investigation skill are nearly-maximized, she's a Skillmonkey, and she's an acrobatic fighter.
Skavenger
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:56 pm
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA

Re: Batgirl (Barbara Gordon)

Post by Skavenger »

Batgirl, as a part of the Bat-books, is really fascinating, because she's in that Venn diagram of Batman and Commissioner Gordon. She has a father who's a cop, but instead of following in his footsteps (granted, those footsteps once included the phrase "the only honest cop in Gotham"), she looked at a costumed vigilante taking out criminals, went "yeah, I could do that," and then did. On her own. With no underlying tragedy. It's one of the few things that make her and Tim Drake special in the Bat-verse.

Plus, in a way, it makes her just as much an inspirational character as Batman himself. Ignoring the fact that she's a woman who did it on her own (which shouldn't be ignored), she's somebody who just up and decided to dress in a costume, and without the same wealth of resources, made herself so essential to the Bat-team that Batman HAD to let her be part of the squad.
Jabroniville wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:10 pm Batgirl Returns:
-When DC rebooted their entire line, they FINALLY, FINALLY made her uncrippled, and did the right political move by having the new Batgirl series written by Gail Simone, her current "owner" as far as characterization went. It was revealed that a state-of-the-art computer chip had allowed her to walk again. However, this series... was kind of a downer. It was rather mediocre, with a lot of villains that were ALMOST memorable, but just failed to really take hold (especially "Evil Rich Girl Who Murders Criminals"). Part of the problem is I think Barbara works best as part of an ensemble, and having her as a solo act with one sarcastic roommate (who hilariously-revealed herself as trans in such a casual way that never got referred to again that I FORGOT ABOUT IT and had to re-check my issues because it got mentioned online) and some weak romantic sub-plots, just didn't work.
Her run as Batgirl was great.

That being said, DC took so much away from the character by removing her as Oracle and making her Batgirl again, that I think the Batman Universe as a whole has suffered.

I get it, in a universe where Roy Harper can get a fake arm a couple days after he loses his, where Cyborg is 75% machinery, and where Batman has knowledge of the location of Lazarus Pits, not to mention friends with Purple Healing Rays, nanotech, New Gods tech, and so on, the fact that Barbara Gordon spent a single day in a wheelchair is kind of unbelievable.

But, as a character, it's so much more inspirational to see someone who, out of solid determination, not only invented their own superhero persona and became a legit superhero, they did it TWICE. And Oracle is every bit a superhero as much as anybody else, and can meet any standard needed for the title. She can mean so much more to so many more people as Oracle than she ever could as "one of Batman's sidekicks," not just to people with disabilities, but anybody who's had to struggle with a life-altering situation that made them feel helpless and powerless. A lot of Batman's mythos is about bettering oneself past normal human limits ("A master detective, martial artist, machinist, chemist, actor, AND businessman?!") and Babs did the exact same thing, just in a much more relatable and exponentially inspirational way. It's unlikely she'd ever be able to be a member of the Justice League as "Batgirl," but not only did she become the leader of her own team of badass superheroes in Birds of Prey as Oracle, she ALSO got to be a part of Grant Morrison's JLA.

Plus, she arrived on the scene at the perfect moment as Oracle, when the internet was really becoming a widespread resource instead of just something used for research, message boards, and porn. The fact that DC had a superhero who was intrinsically linked to something that everybody around the world uses on a daily basis to communicate, store files, learn about news, and even control their household had, and still has, so much potential for a character that removing it just strips away some of DC's ability to stay relevant.

Plus, by the time they decided to reset her as Batgirl, not only were there THREE other people with the title of Batgirl floating around (including Huntress for a brief period) and giving her the title again kind of stalled any further plot development they could have ("Black Bat?" Ugh. Awful name.), she had been Oracle just as long as she had been Batgirl, so fans couldn't even argue "well, it's an inevitable change." Just ask Wally West and Kyle Rayner, it can really suck when your company decides to just ignore advancement and go back to "the good old days."

If DC was determined to have Barbara Gordon be a superhero doing awesome stunts and fighting crime in costume again, there really was a way to have the best of both worlds. It was either Batman International or Batman Inc that introduced the idea of "Batgirl 3.0" which would be Babs fighting crime across the internet using something akin to a ReBoot/Tron Avatar, light-cycling around firewalls and kicking viruses in the face.

And seriously, you can't tell me that it wouldn't be awesome to have that. A mix of gritty noir real life crime solving mixed with Matrix/Ready Player One/Sword Art Online virtual worlds that would allow for an entirely new breed of super-criminal to exist who aren't Quasimodo and Machinesmith over in Marvel. You'd get to have Babs stay Oracle, but also allow fans to see her as the people who can't let go of the Silver Age remember her.
Shock
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Location: Connecticut USA

Re: Jab’s Builds (The Joker! The Ventriloquist! Barbara Gordon!)

Post by Shock »

I really like Barbara as Batgirl and I still think they made a mistake getting rid of Oracle. I thought Oracle and Stephanie/Batgirl had a really good thing going and it's a shame they threw it away.

The Batgirl of Burnside run was very hit or miss but it did kind of grow on me. Since Rebirth, it's been mostly a mess. The whole thing with Gordon Clean Energy smacks of a writer who has no idea how computers, technology or business works. And her relationship with Jason Bard was just bizarrely awful. It got so bad it was almost a relief when the book was cancelled.

I think Barbara partners really well with Nightwing but in a mutually supportive "best friends for life" kind of way rather than being in a relationship and she's been portrayed pretty well in Nightwing's book since hers got cancelled.
greycrusader
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Jab’s Builds (The Joker! The Ventriloquist! Barbara Gordon!)

Post by greycrusader »

Gail Simone, who was undeniably terrific at writing Barbara/Oracle in Birds of Prey, pretty much admits the New 52 Batgirl series was a disappointment for her because of the direction DC editorial insisted on. She lampshaded this in one issue, where Barbara's college rival (now a high-level government op) calls out just how messed-up and sad Gordon's life has become, especially the whole brother-is-a-serial-killer thing. Basically, a lot of the New 52 was about being dark, DARK, DAAAARRRRK! Till the new readers fell away when the novelty wore off, and sales plummeted. Leading to the "Batgirl of Burnside", which was inspired by Kamala Khan's popularity with young girls. This also led to the Black Canary reboot, which was not nearly as well received.

I didn't follow the Burnside version much-it was pretty well done, with really nice artwork, but I'm definitely not the demo it was written for (which is totally OK), and found the book more YA fiction than a detective/adventure title. And yes-that Barbara Gordon is almost a completely different character than even the one Simone was writing a few months prior.

All my best.
Skavenger
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:56 pm
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA

Re: Jab’s Builds (The Joker! The Ventriloquist! Barbara Gordon!)

Post by Skavenger »

Shock wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:52 am I think Barbara partners really well with Nightwing but in a mutually supportive "best friends for life" kind of way rather than being in a relationship and she's been portrayed pretty well in Nightwing's book since hers got cancelled.
There's a significant problem in having any two heroes pair up; comics have a tendency to diminish the female in the pairing. It's why I wasn't really a fan of Wonder Woman being with either Superman or Batman, she becomes the secondary in "Superman and" or "Batman and." Love interests tend to always be a supporting character, and even superheroes become supporting characters when they hook up with other heroes (the many loves of Hawkeye, Jade to Kyle Rayner, the few superhero interests of Spider-man).

If any characters don't deserve to be reduced to a supporting cast, it's Wonder Woman and Batgirl. They really should have their own supporting casts and love interests.
brothersale
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:49 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds (The Joker! The Ventriloquist! Barbara Gordon!)

Post by brothersale »

Skavenger wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:08 am There's a significant problem in having any two heroes pair up; comics have a tendency to diminish the female in the pairing. It's why I wasn't really a fan of Wonder Woman being with either Superman or Batman, she becomes the secondary in "Superman and" or "Batman and." Love interests tend to always be a supporting character, and even superheroes become supporting characters when they hook up with other heroes (the many loves of Hawkeye, Jade to Kyle Rayner, the few superhero interests of Spider-man).
To be honest i don't think that with wonder woman its a case of diminishing her, but the two flaws that have arrisen with her when placed next to batman and superman.

The first being inconsistent characterisation due multiply writters going in various directions shifting her from militaristic to caring or from setting an example to all mankind to extreme woman power, just means that writers have problems locking on to her core personality given that its all over the place. As such most don't want to dig themselves a hole so move her to the background rather than deal with it.

The other is DC comic constant attempt to call her, batman and superman "the big three". Batman and superman were always able to justify that status due to sales (Supes has slumped in recent years), but wonder woman has never had great sales. Add that to have expanding in powers/skills for the other two over the years boosting their versitility, while she just stayed the same in terms of power/skills, means she doesn't bring much the table when sat next to the other two (i have the same complaint when supes is on the JSL, as with him there the others should in theory be reduced to crowd control based on his own comics).

If she was teamed up with another hero other than supes and bats, she would probably do alright, provided they get the writing correct (and consistant)
Orbiter
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Re: Jab’s Builds (The Joker! The Ventriloquist! Barbara Gordon!)

Post by Orbiter »

Just prior to the publication of "The Killing Joke", some editor at DC, I forget who now, made the remark that they didn't know what to do with Batgirl as a character because she was "a weekend crime-fighter". Apparently, having a life with interests outside of punching criminals in the face made her problematic for them. As Skavenger says above, she has no under-lying tragedy; so it would seem she just can't be fit to these stories, now can she? Or maybe, just maybe, what they saw as the problem was the answer. Maybe that's her hook, what makes her stand out from the others, what the others play off of to define and delineate them both. Nah, that can't be it. Let's make her as broody, serious and miserable as possible!
Shock
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Re: Jab’s Builds (The Joker! The Ventriloquist! Barbara Gordon!)

Post by Shock »

Skavenger wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:08 am
Shock wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:52 am I think Barbara partners really well with Nightwing but in a mutually supportive "best friends for life" kind of way rather than being in a relationship and she's been portrayed pretty well in Nightwing's book since hers got cancelled.
There's a significant problem in having any two heroes pair up; comics have a tendency to diminish the female in the pairing. It's why I wasn't really a fan of Wonder Woman being with either Superman or Batman, she becomes the secondary in "Superman and" or "Batman and." Love interests tend to always be a supporting character, and even superheroes become supporting characters when they hook up with other heroes (the many loves of Hawkeye, Jade to Kyle Rayner, the few superhero interests of Spider-man).

If any characters don't deserve to be reduced to a supporting cast, it's Wonder Woman and Batgirl. They really should have their own supporting casts and love interests.
But it doesn't have to be that way. Two characters can be equal partners. Batman/Superman books manage it. Why does it have to be different if one character is female?
Jabroniville
Posts: 24801
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Killer Moth

Post by Jabroniville »

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KILLER MOTH I (Drury Walker/Cameron van Cleer/Danko Twag, aka Charaxes)
Created By:
Bill Finger & Lew Schwartz
First Appearance: Batman #63 (Feb. 1951)
Role: Mirror-Image Villain
PL 9 (160)
STRENGTH
3 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 5 (+9)
Athletics 5 (+8)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+12)
Deception 8 (+11)
Expertise (Criminal) 6 (+10)
Expertise (Science) 4 (+8)
Expertise (Business) 4 (+8)
Insight 5 (+8)
Intimidation 4 (+7)
Investigation 3 (+6)
Perception 5 (+8)
Persuasion 5 (+8)
Ranged Combat (Cocoon Gun) 2 (+11)
Stealth 4 (+8)
Technology 4 (+8)
Vehicles 4 (+8)

Advantages:
Benefit 4 (Millionaire), Defensive Attack, Defensive Roll, Equipment 6 (Mothmobile, Mothcave), Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Critical (Cocoon Gun), Improved Defense, Improved Initiative, Inventor, Jack-of-All-Trades, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 5, Ultimate Deception

Powers:
"Cocoon Gun" (Flaws: Easily Removable) [14]
Snare 7 (21) -- (22 points)
  • AE: "Grenade" Blast 7 (Extras: Area- 15ft. Burst +1/2) (Diminished Range -1) (16.5)
Equipment:
"Mothmobile" (Huge, ST 8, Speed 6- 120 mph, Defense -2, Toughness 10, Caltrops, Oil Slick) (13)
"Grapple Gun" Movement 1 (Swinging) (2)
"The Mothcave" (Large, Toughness 10, Communications, Computer, Concealed, Hangar, Library, Living Space, Workshop) (13)
-- (28 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +12 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Cocoon Gun +11 (+7 Ranged Affliction, DC 17)
Grenade +7 Area (+7 Ranged Damage, DC 22)
Initiative +8

Defenses:
Dodge +12 (DC 22), Parry +12 (DC 22), Toughness +4 (+5 D.Roll), Fortitude +6, Will +6

Complications:
Motivation (Greed)
Enemy (The Batman)

Total: Abilities: 70 / Skills: 70--35 / Advantages: 26 / Powers: 14 / Defenses: 15 (160)

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CHARAXES (Drury Walker/Cameron van Cleer/Danko Twag, aka Killer Moth I)
Created By:
Bill Finger & Lew Schwartz
First Appearance: Batman #63 (Feb. 1951)
Role: Giant Bug-Monster
PL 9 (195)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 8 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 5 (+9)
Athletics 5 (+8)
Deception 8 (+11)
Expertise (Criminal) 6 (+10)
Expertise (Science) 4 (+8)
Expertise (Business) 4 (+8)
Insight 5 (+8)
Intimidation 4 (+7)
Investigation 3 (+6)
Perception 5 (+8)
Persuasion 5 (+8)
Stealth 4 (+8)
Technology 4 (+8)
Vehicles 4 (+8)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Initiative, Jack-of-All-Trades, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 5

Powers:
Flight 5 (60 mph) (Flaws: Winged) [5]
"Prehensile Antennae" Extra Limbs 2 [2]
"Sticky Acid Secretions" Damage 6 (Extras: Secondary Effect) Linked to Weaken 6 (Extras: Affects Objects) Linked to Snare 6 (Extras: Contagious) (Flaws: Touch Range) [42]

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Sticky Acid +10 (+6 Damage, Weaken & Affliction, DC 21, 16 & 16)
Initiative +8

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +8, Fortitude +8, Will +6

Complications:
Motivation (Greed)
Enemy (The Batman)

Total: Abilities: 88 / Skills: 66--33 / Advantages: 10 / Powers: 49 / Defenses: 15 (195)

Killer Moth- Recurring Foe to Joke Villain:
-I actually thought this dude was pretty rad when I first read that "Who's Who" all those years ago- despite the purple & green outfit. He was set up as an "Anti-Batman", an ex-con who decided to counter many of Batman's gimmicks, and thus confound him. He hired himself out to other criminals who wanted help escaping the Batman's notice (the Who's Who nearly ALWAYS refers to him as "The Batman"), then started fighting Batman directly. He built a "Mothcave" to counter the Batcave, and gave criminals an infra-red "Moth-Signal", then beat Batman & Robin using his Mothmobile. Finally, however, he is defeated on Gotham Bridge. A few months later, Killer Moth (disguising himself as a millionaire named "Cameron Von Cleef", possibly a pseudonym) kidnaps Bruce Wayne and even discovers his secret identity... but subsequently took a bullet to the EXACT part of the brain that held the memory, and forgot it. Reading this even at eleven years old, I was all "OH COME ON! That is a lame-ass contrived plot twist, yo", but hey- it was 1951- whattaya gonna do?

-Killer Moth shows up repeatedly during the Silver Age, even becoming the first villain encountered by Batgirl in 1967- he teams up with the Cavalier against Batgirl & Batwoman (who has come out of retirement), then Batgirl & Robin- he is effectively now a "Batgirl Villain". However, the character falls into disuse around the same time Batgirl does, and he is radically altered Post-Crisis. He is now a guy nobody respects named Drury Walker, taking the name of Von Cleef to fight Batman. Batgirl: Year One uses their link to establish him once again.

Post-Crisis Killer Moth:
-He appears with a band of loser villains called "The Misfits"- joining Catman & Calendar Man in an attempt at kidnapping Bruce Wayne and other prominent Gotham citizens, but they turn on him when he plans to kill their hostages. He is one of the villains who sells his soul to the demon lord Neron, asking to become feared instead of someone others just laugh at. He is thus transformed into a massive beast called "Charaxes", eating people and spinning them in cocoons. Charaxes eventually lays hundreds of eggs that all hatch into duplicates of Drury Walker- he despises them, but is unable to kill them, and they're taken in by the government. They are all killed somehow when they attack a scientist.

-Meanwhile, Oracle (the former Batgirl) is confronted by a guy named Danko Twag who claims to be the real, original Killer Moth (the one she'd fought), and that Walker was an imposter. He goes on a rant, but is captured in an energy cell, and seemingly disintegrates himself. Charaxes is one of many characters killed by Superboy-Prime during Infinite Crisis, being ripped in half. This gets rid of ALL the Killer Moths. A new one appears a bit later, but is a minor nobody who only does cameos. Versions of him pop up in the "New 52" (Drury is a Green Arrow foe now), and "DC Rebirth" (as a low-level villain).

-So all in all, Killer Moth is a very strange villain- he was a very "Silver Age" kinda guy in the long run, mostly popping up there, and by the '90s, they decided to make him the equivalent of say, The Shocker- a Joke Villain suffering from weird mental maladies. He became such a goof that they not only tried to "Catman" him (pre-Catman, even!) with that silly "Charaxes" thing, but make a NEW guy the "original Killer Moth", only to kill both in quick succession. And then, outta nowhere, he pops up in BOTH of DC's rebooted continuities in recent years! Ultimately, I think he could work- the name is distinctive and he's a perfectly acceptable "Filler Villain"- one of the Gotham Rogues motivated more by simple greed & personal vendettas than insanity. I could easily see him used for one-offs or to contrast another Bat-Foe by virtue of a more rational mind. But they just kinda got it in their heads that he had to be a joke and spent the next several years trying to fight their way out of it.

Killer Moth's Powers:
-Killer Moth is a PL 9 Anti-Batman with some great Skills & Advantages, enough to challenge the PL 9-10 Batman of the era. Sometimes he's a Joke Villain bordering on PL 7-8, though.
greycrusader
Posts: 1184
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:25 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Jab’s Builds (The Joker! The Ventriloquist! Barbara Gordon!)

Post by greycrusader »

Batgirl's history is such a mess...she started off as James Gordon's daughter, then his niece, then his adopted daughter (but related); she went from head of the Gotham Library system (which would be a BIG job-methinks the original writers didn't realize librarians aren't just clerks), then in the U.S. House, then (after New 52 wiped out her Oracle history) she was back as a graduate student, then regressed to college after Simone's run. And now, as of Rebirth, her stint with the Birds of Prey is back in continuity.

In fairness, her counterpart Supergirl's personal background is even messier, with the bonus of having several parallel universe/timeline replacements.

All my best.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24801
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds (The Joker! The Ventriloquist! Barbara Gordon!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Killer Moth is actually a guy I posted a while back for my Who's Who set, but forgot about. But those guys were merely re-posts, while this one goes into a LOT more detail, and also gives the build for Charaxes, so is much more complete.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24801
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds (The Joker! The Ventriloquist! Barbara Gordon!)

Post by Jabroniville »

greycrusader wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:01 pm Batgirl's history is such a mess...she started off as James Gordon's daughter, then his niece, then his adopted daughter (but related); she went from head of the Gotham Library system (which would be a BIG job-methinks the original writers didn't realize librarians aren't just clerks), then in the U.S. House, then (after New 52 wiped out her Oracle history) she was back as a graduate student, then regressed to college after Simone's run. And now, as of Rebirth, her stint with the Birds of Prey is back in continuity.

In fairness, her counterpart Supergirl's personal background is even messier, with the bonus of having several parallel universe/timeline replacements.

All my best.
Generally speaking, I junk anything after the "New 52" reboot hits, because after that point absolutely nothing matters. Your hero's an older, established veteran? PSYCHE! Now she's just a rock & roll singer or peppy college student! Need a new character for your story? Just change the appearance, concept and style of an old character and arbitrarily make him the same guy! Just ignore literally everything ever written about that character... unless you suddenly want to take advantage of DC's decades of history to make your character or story seem more important- then just cheat and pick & choose which historical aspects matter!

Like... they want the freedom to just write whatever story they want, with whatever CHARACTERS they want, but then randomly an old story will be super-important to the current one and characters have years of history. Except for the guys who were completely reinvented and were brand-new.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24801
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds (The Joker! The Ventriloquist! Barbara Gordon!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Shock wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:52 am I really like Barbara as Batgirl and I still think they made a mistake getting rid of Oracle. I thought Oracle and Stephanie/Batgirl had a really good thing going and it's a shame they threw it away.

The Batgirl of Burnside run was very hit or miss but it did kind of grow on me. Since Rebirth, it's been mostly a mess. The whole thing with Gordon Clean Energy smacks of a writer who has no idea how computers, technology or business works. And her relationship with Jason Bard was just bizarrely awful. It got so bad it was almost a relief when the book was cancelled.

I think Barbara partners really well with Nightwing but in a mutually supportive "best friends for life" kind of way rather than being in a relationship and she's been portrayed pretty well in Nightwing's book since hers got cancelled.
haha, yeah I made fun of the "Gordon Clean Energy" thing but it was HILARIOUS how tacked-on and "Ummm... yeah! That's a cause for young 'uns to associate with! Clean energy! That's good- yeah!" Except Barbara is into COMPUTERS and has no business credibility or experience at all... and then she just founds the company and never touches it again. Like it's there solely for political impact but they don't even say what it really DOES. Like, who the hell runs it while she's doing other stuff?
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