Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24689
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

The Joker (Modern)

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

THE JOKER (Jack Napier, among others)
Created By:
Jerry Robinson, Bob Kane & Bill Finger
First Appearance: Batman #1 (Spring 1940)
Role: Batman's Arch-Foe, Crazy Villain, The Embodiment of Chaotic Evil
Mental Problems: Anger Issues, Finds Humor in Everything, Hatred, Obsessive-Compulsive, Tourette's Syndrome (laughter), Complete Lack of Morals, Obsession with Breaking Batman & Gordon, Bipolar Disorder (hell, just read a list of Wikipedia's mental disorders and throw darts at the screen. He's probably got whatever you hit)
PL 11 (169)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 12 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 (+7)
Athletics 6 (+8)
Close Combat (Improvised Weapons) 2 (+14)
Close Combat (Acid Flower) 1 (+11)
Deception 6 (+9)
Expertise (Criminal) 8 (+11)
Expertise (Science) 5 (+8)
Insight 3 (+6)
Intimidation 10 (+13)
Investigation 2 (+5)
Perception 4 (+7)
Sleight of Hand 5 (+10)
Stealth 4 (+8)
Technology 5 (+8)
Vehicles 4 (+9)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Beginner's Luck, Chokehold, Daze (Intimidation), Diehard, Equipment 13 (Joker Gear), Evasion, Fascinate (Intimidation), Fast Grab, Grab Finesse, Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Improvised Weapons) 2, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improvised Tools, Inventor, Last Stand, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 6, Startle, Taunt

Powers:
"Crazy"
Immunity 1 (Joker Gas) [1]
Immunity 10 (Mental Effects) (Flaws: Limited to Half-Effect) [5]
"Sneak Attack" Enhanced Strength 2 (Flaws: Limited to Striking, Limited to When Opponent is Vulnerable) [1]

Equipment:
Any Assortment
"Gun" Blast 5 (10)
"Joker Gas" Affliction 11 (Fort; Dazed/Stunned/Incapacitated) (Extras: Area- 15ft. Cloud, Progressive +2) Linked to Weaken Stamina 4 (Extras: Area- 15ft. Cloud, Progressive +2) (55)
"Razor-Sharp Playing Cards" Blast 4 (Diminished Range -1) (7)
"Acid Flower" Damage 4 (Feats: Reach 2) (Extras: Secondary Effect) Linked to Weaken Toughness 2 (Feats: Reach 2) (14)
"Joy Buzzer" Damage 6 (Extras: Multiattack) (Inaccurate -1) (17)

Offense:
Unarmed +12 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Improvised Weapon +14 (+4-5 Damage, DC 19-20)
Sneak Attack +12 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Sneak Attack w/ Weapons +14 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Gun +11 (+5 Ranged Damage, DC 20)
Joker Gas +11 Area (+11 Affliction & +4 Weaken, DC 21 & 14)
Initiative +8

Defenses:
Dodge +11 (DC 21), Parry +11 (DC 21), Toughness +4, Fortitude +7, Will +8

Complications:
Motivation (Greed, Fun, Chaos)
Obsession (Laughter & Jokes)
Obsession (Breaking People. ANY People)
Enemy/Rivalry/Obsession (Batman)

Total: Abilities: 70 / Skills: 68--34 / Advantages: 39 / Powers: 7 / Defenses: 17 (169)

The Joker in the Silver & Bronze Ages:
-The Joker was one of the few villains popular enough to remain published all the way through the Silver Age, with few modifications. He finally got an origin story in 1951- this added the elements of him originally being called "The Red Hood" and being disfigured after falling into a chemical vat. A story the next year features him attempting to act publicly as a folk hero and wealthy criminal despite having been tricked out of his riches- the "Silly Joker" is personified. The Silver Age introduces now-familiar concepts like the deadly Joy Buzzer, the Acid-Squirting Flower, Trick Guns, and extremely goofy, elaborate prank/crimes. Julius Schwartz took over the Bat-Books in 1964, and hated the character, so he rarely appeared... only for actor Cesar Romero to perform an incredibly amusing take on him in the 1966 Batman TV series, making him a megastar again. So after a four-year break, suddenly the Joker was back, and was now a serious threat once more- 1973 sees him return, modified by Dennis O'Neil & Neal Adams into a serial killer once more (they were inspired by the early stories- funnily enough, the Joker had been silly for multiple times longer than he was ever dangerous). The character is now an impulsive, homicidal maniac obsessed with matching wits with Batman. Adams debuted the "long & lean" look for the character, extending his jaw to create a distinctive visage that lasted until the 1990s.

-The Joker got his own solo book in 1975, but it was soon cancelled- the Comics Code at the time said villains always had to be punished, and so he was arrested at the end of each issue. Fans didn't take to the book. But in any case, "Serial Killer Joker" became the standard... for good or ill. So what Finger had feared ended up becoming commonplace- Batman would capture the Joker, who would inevitably go to Arkham Asylum (this era was the first to consider him medically insane, and so unfit for "regular prison"), and then he'd escape and do it all over again- the now-common body counts making Batman look ineffective and starting the "Just Kill Him" logic, to the point that even by 1985, writers like Frank Miller were pulling the "All the people I've murdered... by allowing you to live" thing.

The Joker Becomes a Legend:
-Nonetheless, the sales tell the tale- the Joker was a big deal, and the Bat-books slowly made more and more money as the threats got deadlier and the stories more serious. Steve Englehart would write the legendary Laughing Fish story where the Joker creates an insane plan to give all the fish in Gotham his same rictus grin... for copywrite purposes. This is, of course, completely insane, which is the POINT- the character is unable to comprehend that this doesn't really work legally, and it became an iconic story in terms of the weird insane logic of the character. Like, it's nuts, but you can see where his mind is at- it makes sense from an insane point of view, you know? Englehart's work is considered important enough to have led to the 1988 Batman movie version played by Jack Nicholson, and the 1992 Batman: The Animated Series version by Mark Hammill- notably, as time went on, Joker became more and more giggly and manic- attributes initially created by Frank Gorshin for the RIDDLER in the 1966 show (Romero's Joker was jovial, but not as hyperactive).

-The Joker's peak in credibility came, Bullseye-style, in the savage beating and murder of Jason Todd, the second Robin. This gave the character an edge other villains lacked- not many villains SUCCEEDED in carrying out their threats, and this would stick to him for a very long time. Never mind that The Killing Joke came out the same year, having the Joker cripple Barbara Gordon by shooting her throught he spine, then taking pictures of her nude, bleeding body in an attempt at making Commissioner Gordon as insane as he is- this was HUGE, and made him come off as an even bigger deal.

-The character remains a huge star in the 1990s and beyond. The 2001 event Joker's Last Laugh has him told that he's dying by Arkham doctors in an attempt to get him to reform- instead, he "Jokerizes" dozens of villains in a line-wide crossover, and is beaten to death by Dick Grayson for apparently murdering Tim Drake- Batman revives the Joker to prevent Dick from becoming a murderer, but the Joker declares this a "win" for getting one of the Bat-Family to break that code. He also murders Commissioner Gordon's wife around this time, shooting her as she's saving some babies he was threatening. In Infinite Crisis, he is left out of Alexander Luthor's "Secret Society" for being too unpredictable- the offended, frowning villain gets even in the end, with Lex Luthor setting him after the imposter ("You should have let Joker play")- Alexander is fried by a Joy-Buzzer. Eventually, Jason Todd returns, and gets revenge upon revenge on the Joker for killing him- it's actually kind of hilarious and comes off like every writer had their "Jason gets revenge" story planned out, but didn't realize everyone else did too, so it's just never-ending Jason-Beating-Joker stories with Jason sparing him "for later" in every instance.

-Eventually, 2020 reveals that the disparate Jokers are all canon in Three Jokers, which indicates that there are THREE different Jokers. The Criminal (Golden Age mastermind), Clownish (goofy Silver Age one) and Comedian (nasty serial killer in modern tales)- Jason Todd murders Clownish (who is the one who killed him, I guess), and the Criminal is murdered by the Comedian.

The Problem With "Mass Murderer Joker":
-Most "Modern Jokers" go way too far into the "Serial Killer" range in my opinion. Desperate one-upsmanship by hack writers had turned the comic book version into a completely-unacceptable recurring character, as they have him to more and more grotesque things to be the "Scary Joker" than is a self-parody that also has the horrendous side-effect of making Batman and every cop on the GCPD look like a bunch of hapless idiots who risk thousands of lives by letting him live. I mean, say what you will about Garth Ennis, but he knew not to leave these deeply-evil, awful characters alive for more than a Trade Paperback or two- the true abominations like D'Aronique, Jodie, and Gran'ma were always killed very quickly. Y: The Last Man also features a smug, arrogant evil Amazon as one of the early villains, and makes her so unlikable she's ALSO wiped out in the first part of the tale. You can make a character as evil as the "forces a woman to eat the remains of her dead husband" Joker, sure, but you HAVE TO KILL HIM, because reasonable audiences won't accept something like that as a recurring menace. Unfortunately, modern-day edgelords have taken to the character as "Fun" and this leads to the constant extremes. And so you get unnecessarily grotesque shit like Joker walking around with his removed face attached to his head by wires, him gleefully torturing people and getting away with it, and more. It's just needlessly, excessively dark. What's more- it's LAZY. It requires absolutely no talent to just come up with a new way to torture people, and it's a huge crutch that hacks can lean on again and again.

-This also leads to another issue- the fact that "Joker Stories" get so much attention means that all the other villains are diminished, and the character overwhelms the stories. I have issues of Gail Simone's Batgirl that are just endless with Joker appearances, and none of them are amusing or entertaining at all- it's just needlessly grim, glum nonsense.

Batman The Animated Series- Best Joker:
-For these reasons, and Mark Hammill's manic portrayal, the B:TAS Joker is the best Joker to me. This version of the character was a maniac AND very scary, but also more of a "typical villain". He wasn't a mass murderer or serial killer- it was important to note that in many episodes, he was just a simple thief (the "Captain Clown" episode has him gas all of Gotham... just so he can steal stuff), and he could walk into a room with other Bat-Rogues and not everyone would run for the hills. He'd want to murder Commissioner Gordon, sure... but he wouldn't carve him up or slaughter his children- he'd freeze him with a nerve agent and blow him up using a giant birthday cake. Like, he's dangerous and crazy, but he's not butchering people for no reason. So he was a bit of a standard-issue bad guy... except you'd see episodes where a guy tells him off for cutting him off in traffic, and "gets even" by ordering the man to do him a favor. And the man is so completely petrified (despite the Joker ACTING nice and friendly about it, in an important bit that makes it even scarier) that he changes his name and moves away from Gotham... only to have the Joker casually phone him up one day and call in his favor... which near kills the entire Gotham Police Department, AND the man. Like, he's scary as hell when he wants to be, but his gags are so humorous and bizarre that he's still an enjoyable part of the series.

The Joker Overall:
-Overexposure and excessive murderousness has kind of ruined what was once one of the best villains around- a manic, deranged, but still kind of oddly hilarious weirdo. His wild antics in B:TAS are of course a great showcase of this, but there's more. A great menance in many ways- Gotham Central used him well, making use of the fact that his shit was unpredictable in a terrifying way, but made a measure of sense in his own twisted logic. Batman even warned the detectives to not just imagine this was all random. In the story, he murders Gotham's mayor and another public official, all to tease an inevitable massacre, causing Gotham to fall into pandemonium as everything shuts down in the middle of the Christmas season... then allows himself to be arrested by the police.

-He laughs through a violent interrogation (Commissioner Akins pretty well insists his detectives beat a confession out of him out of desperation) as a newscaster is kidnapped and set up next to a bomb... and finally they figure out what's going on. With the Joker in custody, the shoppers are out in full force to buy what they couldn't during the lockdown... and now he's placed a bomb in a TOY STORE- several good cops die as the Joker's plan is undone... and he recovers from five gunshots and laughs in a hospital bed to end it all. It's crazy, violent, but makes a measure of sense, and still the common heroes get to be heroic. The charater WORKS. But the endless series of "wins" he racked up between 1988 and today just got way too excessive for me, and the comics had to rely so much on this "Arms Race" of atrocities that I think the character really needs to sit by the wayside to really continue to mean anything... except a damn MOVIE came out starring him as the main character, which means he'll probably always just be around.

The Joker's Stats:
-So The Joker is much worse in combat than his arch-nemesis, Batman (the Joker Gas is all that keeps him an even PL 11). so it still all comes down to the scheme. But the Joker's are always the best, involving the best henchman, the best traps, and the hardest-to-figure-out plan. He's got a swack of Advantages, tons of Skills (I dunno if he invents his own Gas & gadgets, but he's pretty good with them nonetheless), and his Joker Gas is extremely deadly. It can kill easily (part of why Bats ALWAYS has a breathing device handy) by Weakening Stamina, and it also Afflicts guys badly, leaving it's victims helpless and lying about, dying of the Weaken. It's extremely expensive, but hey, he's the arch-villain- he gets away with it.

-Joker's nowhere near as elite as the Bat-crew at fighting, but he's definitely no slouch. He'll smack you with SALAMI, thow sneaky razor-cards, etc., and he's definitely more dangerous than the common Mook in hand-to-hand. He's also crazily impossible to predict, even for a guy like Batman, and thus, Joker needs high to-hit, especially with Improvised Weapons (he can fight using Salami, and once hurt Batman pretty good with a giant wrench).
Skavenger
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:56 pm
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA

Re: Jab’s Builds (Man-Bat! Capt. Stingaree! Calendar Man! The Joker!)

Post by Skavenger »

I wasn't really sure I wanted to say anything about the Joker, because it's all been said before, but I guess there's a few things I'd like to touch on.

That hard swerve from "goofy criminal Joker" to "murderous clown" came hard because of DC's determination to get away from the camp of the TV series. They wanted a much more serious Batman, and in order to have a serious Batman, you need serious villains. Otherwise it's still camp, since Adam West approached every single wacky crime or death trap with the intensity of Breaking Bad.

But I think what makes the Joker work is that he never wants Batman dead (at least, not when told well). He just wants to hurt Batman. Killing others, blowing up buildings, setting up giant playing card death traps, they all serve the same goal, making Batman feel pain. The moment Batman dies, the game is over, and that's the worst possible thing (see: "The Man Who Killed Batman"). This tends to make him a one-dimensional villain, which is interesting because almost all of Batman's other villains have some genuine pathos, or at least something about them you can sympathize with. Sure, the Riddler is hokey when he robs a crossword puzzle museum or prances around in green tights, but you can at least, on some level, understand the frustration of being so smart, but knowing there's someone who's always smarter, and just wanting a victory to soothe your own ego.

As a Seattle Mariners fan, I really sympathize with wanting just one big win.

Grant Morrison had an interesting approach to the Joker, where he has "supersanity," a means of reinventing his entire personality based on the circumstances of the world around him. It makes sense then that he might twist a doctor into a sidekick one minute, put smiles on the faces of a ton of fish another minute, and then set up a bomb in a toy shop before turning himself in another minute. He adapts to the state of Gotham to constantly be on the cusp of "peak criminal."

Ironically, I think the attempts to add a layer of deeper characterization to the Joker takes away from what makes him work. There's a reason The Killing Joke became such a big deal, but considering even Alan Moore is fed up with talking about it, and even though it gave us Oracle, a character 2000% more interesting than Barbara Gordon just being Batgirl, it and the subsequent attempts to "humanize" the Joker tend to backfire, because he's a character that doesn't NEED sympathy to be effective. The more we know about the Joker, the less we fear him, because he's able to be categorized. It's sort of the same problem with Batman. The more we, the audience, know about his thought process, the less imposing and effective he is. It's why a lot of the best stories to feature Batman are ones where we see him from other character's point of view, or just don't get to see inside his head at all.

(This is also part of the reason why Joker and Ra's Al Ghul are so effective, they know Batman almost better than anybody, so they don't fear him at all.)

Plus, going back and reading that first appearance of the Red Hood, it doesn't really tell us anything about the Joker other than he once had another identity. He jumped into a vat of chemicals (conveniently next to a playing card company), but I think it was Year Zero that introduced the idea that he was ALWAYS the Joker, he always had the grin and the personality, he just didn't have the hair and complexion to back it up. That chemical bath just helped him embody what he always was.

I hated the Batman R.I.P. storyline, but it had two really great Joker moments in it. One is when he mocked the group of "elites" who were trying to take down Batman as being total amateurs, since they didn't know Batman as well, and the other was when Batman was thought dead and they asked Joker what he thought, and his response was that after he "climbs out of that shallow grave" he was going to hunt them all down. "I keep trying to think outside his toybox, and he just keeps building a bigger box around me."
User avatar
Ken
Posts: 3460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:40 pm
Location: Sycalb, Madiganistan

Re: Jab’s Builds (Man-Bat! Capt. Stingaree! Calendar Man! The Joker!)

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:45 am-The Joker debuts in Batman #1, sporting a horrible grin, and is already killing people with "Joker Venom" that leaves their faces trapped in the same rictus. He engages in a crime spree, targeting jewels, but is stabbed in the heart- this was meant to be the end of him (Finger wanted him to die because recurring villains might make Batman "appear inept", which has actually been kind of a recurring problem in recent years), but then-editor Whitney Ellsworth saw more worth in him, and insisted on a hastily-drawn panel where they're like "Wow! He's actually still alive!". The character was so successful he appeared in nine of Batman's first 12 issues.
In Batman #1 there are actually two Joker stories. One where Robin kicks the Joker off some scaffolding, but Batman catches the Joker because he's "too valuable a prize". This lead story ends with Joker telling the reader that he knows a way out (of the prison.)

ImageImage

Then the final story in the book is "The Return of the Joker", and that ends with Joker stabbing himself while trying to stab Batman.

ImageImage
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
Skavenger
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:56 pm
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA

Re: Jab’s Builds (Man-Bat! Capt. Stingaree! Calendar Man! The Joker!)

Post by Skavenger »

It's always a fun trivia question. "When was the Joker's first appearance?" "Batman #1." "What was Joker's SECOND appearance?" "Uhhhh...."
Sidney369
Posts: 328
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:18 am

Re: Jab’s Builds (Man-Bat! Capt. Stingaree! Calendar Man! The Joker!)

Post by Sidney369 »

It was a doctor of Slabside Penitentiary who faked the report that the Joker had a tumour. He had been sent there because he kept escaping from Arkham.

The whole "supersanity" thing is just nonsense psychobabble and the less sad about it, the better.
Always ask before you use someone's Original Character.
Never ever use them without permission. Only Villains do that.
Skavenger
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:56 pm
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA

Re: Jab’s Builds (Man-Bat! Capt. Stingaree! Calendar Man! The Joker!)

Post by Skavenger »

Sidney369 wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:06 am It was a doctor of Slabside Penitentiary who faked the report that the Joker had a tumour. He had been sent there because he kept escaping from Arkham.

The whole "supersanity" thing is just nonsense psychobabble and the less sad about it, the better.
I mean, is "supersanity" any worse than "nth metal" or "willpower is an emotion?"
Skavenger
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:56 pm
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA

Re: Jab’s Builds (The Riddler! Man-Bat! Capt. Stingaree! Calendar Man!)

Post by Skavenger »

Ares wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:28 pm Lucius Fox I like as a character, though moreso as the guy running Wayne Enterprises, a confidant, secondary father figure and someone who helps Bruce develop his technology rather than the person who builds Bruce's tech for him.

One of my favorite takes on the character was in The Batman animated series, where Lucius was a friend of Bruce's parents and the one left in charge after they died. It was clear that both Alfred and Lucius were good friends and did their best to help raise Bruce to be the man he became. There was a very touching moment where Lucius and Alfred are talking and Alfred brings out a picture of a time the two of them took Bruce to an air show. They're all looking up at the sky, watching the jets do stunts, and all of them are smiling. Lucius just remarks with a small smile on his face, "I think that was the first time all three of us forgot, just for a little while", clearly referencing the memory of Thomas and Martha's deaths.

The Batman also made it clear that while Lucius and Wayne enterprises often made scientific breakthroughs, it was Bruce who would adapt that technology for his own uses, combine them in unique ways or develop entirely new technologies. For instance, for his re-match fight with Bane they showed Bruce and Alfred build the Bat-Mech he piloted completely from scratch. Similarly, when Bruce needed to upgrade the Batmobile, while he took plans for a new engine Wayne-Tech had developed, Bruce customized it for the Batmobile himself. Bruce IS a scientific genius and gadgeteer all on his own, and I'd put his intelligence as being on par with people like Tony Stark. Still, having Lucius around certainly makes Bruce's job easier, as Lucius can focus on developing the technological break throughs and Bruce only has to figure out how to best apply them to his work.
I'm just not a fan of Batman being such a technological genius. Not only does it make characters like Oracle and Tim Drake somewhat obsolete, it also renders an entire category of character who would join the Justice League pointless. Why have a Cyborg, Blue Beetle, Steel, or Atom (the Ray Palmer one) on the team, when Batman can out-engineer them all? Of course, it's comics, so being smart in one field of science usually means you're smart in every field of science, but that's a different topic.

Personally, I like the idea presented in the episode The Mechanic, from the Animated Series. The fact that there's people around Gotham who Batman has helped, and in turn, they help him. We already know he's built himself a new family to replace the one he lost, this just expands the idea further that he's building an entire support network of like-minded people to handle his plane, boomerang, car, and grappling hook needs. I mean, the other option is Batman spends all day in his cave and all night patrolling, or...

Jab, you better paste Harold soon so I can expand on all this, or I swear I'm gonna burst.
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Jab’s Builds (The Riddler! Man-Bat! Capt. Stingaree! Calendar Man!)

Post by Ares »

Skavenger wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:04 am I'm just not a fan of Batman being such a technological genius. Not only does it make characters like Oracle and Tim Drake somewhat obsolete,
Except Tim and Barbara's technological engineering skills aren't what they bring to the table, and thus Batman having engineering skills doesn't interfere with their relationship at all. Tim's specialization as a Robin is his detective skills and martial arts. Unlike Dick or Jason, who existed more for Bruce to explain stuff to, Tim existed to bounce ideas back and forth with as a pair of detectives brainstorming a case. There's a reason why Tim was someone Ra's felt worthy of giving "The Detective" title to when Bruce wasn't around.

Meanwhile Barbara's tech specialty is computer hacking, not engineering. While she has a solid knowledge of how to build computer systems, she isn't someone to design motorcycles, airplanes or build robot suits or the like. She does things like electronic systems infiltration, digital data acquisition, electronic monitoring, things like that. And in that regard she's superior to Bruce, and having her monitoring communications, updating him on various digital data feeds and like is useful in ways that has nothing to do with Bruce being able to synthesize an antidote for Fear Toxin.
it also renders an entire category of character who would join the Justice League pointless. Why have a Cyborg, Blue Beetle, Steel, or Atom (the Ray Palmer one) on the team, when Batman can out-engineer them all?
Well, to be fair, Batman and Blue Beetle are almost never on the League together outside of some early Justice League International issues, because they both fulfill similar niches. Both of them are costumed crimefighters, acrobatic gadget users, martial artists, detectives, etc. This resulted in Ted usually being stuck on monitor duty or piloting the Bug rather than getting involved in any action while Batman was around. Which is a shame, because it'd actually be interesting to have Bruce and Ted working together and playing off each other, having them both working together on stuff and give them a chance to showcase how they're comparably formidable compared to each other, but each have different strengths.

I would say that Bruce is definitely the better detective and better at stealth, but Ted is probably the better scientist. Honestly, it was frustrating how many writers ignored what kind of a tech genius Ted was supposed to be, as well as de-valued his combat skills and the like. Ted honestly should have been a way to have someone like the Silver Age, Adam West Batman who wasn't as concerned with stealth, was more focused on crazy gadgets, had a lot more fun with witty puns, and could still kick a lot of butt. It's one reason why I enjoyed whenever Ted appeared on Batman: The Brave and the Bold, as that series seemed to give Ted the respect he was due.

Honestly, if I was creating a superhero team for DC, I'd want to have Ted on the team rather than Bruce.

As for Cyborg, Steel and the Atom, I might need to clarify that while I consider Bruce to have intelligence on par with Tony Stark, I don't consider him a Tony Stark level engineer or scientist. Tony focuses all of his intelligence into his engineering and scientist skills, along with a knack for clever plans and tactics. Bruce takes that same level of intelligence but spreads it around numerous skills in an effort to be the most accomplished crimefighter of his generation. His specialization is as a detective (his title is literally The World's Greatest Detective), but he's also a master martial artist, stealth expert, master of disguise, chemist, engineer, linguist, and a whole host of other skills. Bruce and come up with some incredible tech, but he can't match Tony in terms of super science or engineering, though Bruce is smart enough to follow any tech conversation Tony has. Bruce can design an incredible jet, a fantastic car and the like, but any suit of power armor he designs that can really give him a chance against a superhuman tends to be oversized. He just can't build compact suits of armor with the same capabilities as Tony does.

So with Steel, who I consider to be more on Tony's level in terms of pure engineering, it'd be a matter of Bruce being happy to defer engineering chores to him so he can focus on the areas he excels at

With the Atom, it's a similar thing where Ray is a much better theoretical scientist and physicist. He's more akin to how Hank Pym was portrayed in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes where he's more of a lab guy who understands complex scientific phenomena, but Ray usually isn't the type to have a lot of gadgets on him. He's usually either doing research to explain a problem, or doing his usual size-shifting for combat and infiltration purposes. In some ways, Ray is the closest thing the League has ever had to a Reed Richards level scientist.

As for Cyborg, I don't really think Vic should be on the Justice League in the first place. Vic is a Titan, that's where he belongs, and he's really not the technical genius Steel, Ray or Ted are. The main reason he got upgraded with New Gods technology was to make him more appropriate for the Justice League with more insane capabilities, whereas before he wasn't nearly as powerful. I much rather they'd ditch the New Gods tech and send Vic back to the Titans so he can be with his family, rather than keep him around as part of misguided diversity push. If you want more non-white heroes on the League, they should bring back people like Steel, Vixen and others. Heck, maybe take one of the good ideas from the Young Justice cartoon and have folks like Icon, Rocket and Hardware on the League.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24689
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Gaggy

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image
Image

GAGGY (Gagsworth A. Gagsworthy)
Created By:
Gardener Fox & Sheldon Moldoff
First Appearance: Batman #186 (Nov. 1966)
Role: Jobber Villain
Group Affiliations: None

-Gaggy is actually the Joker's FIRST sidekick, appearing all the way back in the 1960s. He was a dwarf dressed in clown gear, and helped the Joker steal a bunch of antiques until they were captured. This was pretty much the end of him, until modern times, when they retconned that he was a circus highwire act until he was replaced by the Flying Graysons. Reduced to the freakshow, he was deeply resentful, and ended up lashing out at one of his fellow clowns- the Joker admired this, and they became a duo using gags and props. Now a psychopath in prison, Gaggy decides to bring it back to the "Good old days" and murder the "next" sidekick, Harley Quinn, in Gotham City Sirens- Harley and her friends have to escape his deathtraps. That's a pretty solid use of a forgotten character, actually- make a "deep cut" by remembering the Joker's OLD sidekick, and have him be bitter about the new one. He was killed in the "New 52" era as Jason Todd fed him to a shark afflicted with Joker Venom.

-Gaggy was an incredibly acrobatic tight-rope walker, apparently in league with Dick Grayson. He also apparently had a Sonic Scream for some reason? He used it to KO Harley, Catwoman & Poison Ivy. This was obviously just in the Sirens tale.
User avatar
Davies
Posts: 5080
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Gaggy

Post by Davies »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:17 pm He was killed in the "New 52" era as Jason Todd fed him to a shark afflicted with Joker Venom.
It should be noted that this takes place in "Three Jokers", which is of ... questionable canonicity. Questionable. Yeah, that's a nice, neutral-sounding word. I think I'm gonna say it a few more times. Questionable. Questionable. Quest-- okay, I'm tired of this.
"I'm sorry. I love you. I'm not sorry I love you."
User avatar
Ken
Posts: 3460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:40 pm
Location: Sycalb, Madiganistan

Re: Jab’s Builds (Man-Bat! Capt. Stingaree! Calendar Man! The Joker!)

Post by Ken »

I'm feeling a mite gaggy now too.
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24689
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Merrymaker

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

MERRYMAKER (Byron Meredith)
Created By:
John Layman & Jason Fabok
First Appearance: Detective Comics #16 (Jan. 2013)
Role: Jobber Villain
Group Affiliations: The League of Smiles

-Oh, this is a new guy- I was hoping for a forgotten Silver Ager. So Merrymaker was an Arkham psychiatrist who formed a gang of Joker-wannabes, telling them it would impress their idol. However, it was just a cover for him to kill people who'd wronged him. He was about to murder his ex-wife when Batman arrived- during the fight, his League of Smiles realized he'd been using them, and teamed up to beat on him. The psychiatrist then deemed him insane, even though he really wasn't, and so he was forced to go to Arkham. I think this was a "New 52" thing, and I said I wasn't gonna do any builds of that, but I already did the work, so here you go, lol.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24689
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

The Masquerader

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

THE MASQUERADER (Samuel Tweed)
Created By:
Frank Robbins & Bob Brown
First Appearance: Detective Comics #390 (Aug. 1969)
Role: One-Off Villain
Group Affiliations: None

-A guy wearing a skull mask, The Masquerader appeared in only one issue. He was a tailor- in fact, the one responsible for making the Batsuits for Batman himself! That's... weird. After years of going unrecognized and feeling unappreciative, he naturally decided to become evil, going on a crime spree in a disguise of his own. And all of his crimes were designed to lure in the Dark Knight and have his Batsuits ripped. Depleting his collection of suits, Batman was forced to contract Samuel for another one, at which point he received a booby-trapped one that prevented him from moving when exposed to infrared light. Finally trapping Batman, the Masquerader revealed himself and his intentions, but Batman escaped and captured him. This whole thing is so goofy- Batman contracting out his suits to a third party who turns out to be EVIL?
greycrusader
Posts: 1179
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:25 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Jab’s Builds (Man-Bat! Capt. Stingaree! Calendar Man! The Joker!)

Post by greycrusader »

I'm in full agreement the Joker's depravity has been taken much, much too far-yes, he should be extraordinarily dangerous and ruthless, fully capable of killing on a whim, but NOT utterly depraved and needlessly sadistic. To paraphrase one of the character's best lines of dialogue ever, he's the JOKER-he doesn't kill or brutalize people without a purpose unless its somehow FUNNY. He's a ruthless criminal lunatic, but the Clown Prince of Crime has standards; if he didn't, he'd be Black Mask.'

What a lot of modern writers don't understand is Batman stories can work perfectly fine with standard-issue villains, either low-to moderately powered super-crooks (not just the "monsters" like Clayface or Man-Bat, but weird-science types like Dr. Double X or Planet-Master) or costumed criminals with a gimmick (Calendar Man, Signal Man, the Riddler) who AREN"T killers at all, but still able to challenge Batman with grand schemes or clever traps.

Batman's versatile nature as a character (master detective, modern pulp hero, gadgeteer superhero, creature of the night) means he can go up against all sorts of rogues and have exciting adventures; cult leaders (Al Ghul, Kobra), gang leaders (Two-Face, the earlier version of Killer Croc), criminal masterminds (Penguin), psychopaths (Mad Hatter, Firefly), rivals (Bane, Wrath), mad scientists (Prof. Strange), femme fatales (Noctura, some versions of Poison Ivy)...his roster should be the most versatile in comics. Because Batman works equally as well as a hero in the Victorian Era, Pulp Era, WW II, Atom Age, 1970s neo-noir, near-future dystopia..so his villains run that spectrum too. That's the brilliance of the character.

All my best.
Shock
Posts: 2978
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:27 pm
Location: Connecticut USA

Re: Jab’s Builds (Man-Bat! Capt. Stingaree! Calendar Man! The Joker!)

Post by Shock »

That's the biggest complaint I can give the Joker. He isn't funny anymore. One of my favorite Animated Series episodes is Christmas with the Joker. He kidnaps people, takes hostages, blows stuff up... all so he can get Batman with a pie in the face. That's my Joker
Post Reply