Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

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BriarThrone
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by BriarThrone » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:39 pm

FuzzyBoots wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:59 pm
Yup. In an ideal system, justice would indeed be objective and impartial. However, there has never been a legal system that has reached that ideal, and it's probably a good thing, because it helps prevent injustices by people being able to use their best judgment. Which yes, does require us to trust humans, which historically doesn't tend to work out well. But, it's like that old joke about Democracy is the worst possible system, but it's better than anything else we've come up with yet.
Which doesn't take away from the point that you're arguing for less justice in this case.
FuzzyBoots wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:59 pm
The question was raised of how much illegal immigrants contribute to the system versus what they get out of it. I was pointing out that they have a net positive contribution, which could change if we either eliminated those immigrants or gave them rights.
I pointed out that there is no statistics on the ratio of how many illegals are working what kind of jobs, contributing via identity theft vs suffering from exploitation, because, like as many pointed out in the space of a few minutes, the accuracy of data collected about subjects deliberately hidden from the authorities is, shall we say, "dubious." That's not to say that there's no statistics, though. Like these. Quick Google search.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/publicatio ... -taxpayers
FuzzyBoots wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:59 pm
Honestly, I feel like we're arguing in circles here. Short of appealing to statistics, which you claim don't exist, we're just arguing on the basis of passion.
That's what Google's for.

Ken
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by Ken » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:46 am

I recommend Win Bigly by Scott Adams as a way to get clearer view of the Showman-In-Chief.

As far as my earlier question goes, I can never shake the feeling that the illegal population of the U.S. is just U.S. Slavery 2.0, but I don't have the hard numbers to back up that feeling. Right down to the political parties.
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FuzzyBoots
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by FuzzyBoots » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:42 pm

Ken wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:46 am
I recommend Win Bigly by Scott Adams as a way to get clearer view of the Showman-In-Chief.

As far as my earlier question goes, I can never shake the feeling that the illegal population of the U.S. is just U.S. Slavery 2.0, but I don't have the hard numbers to back up that feeling. Right down to the political parties.
There's some basis for that. They lack the protection most legal citizens get when working. The need to avoid notice can take them to jobs for criminal organizations who similarly want to avoid notice. It's kind of parallel to the argument that we're better off legalizing drugs, abortion, or prostitution, since otherwise people will be driven to the seamy undergrowth.

Although, honestly, the prison work system is a better parallel for legalized slavery.

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Batgirl III
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by Batgirl III » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:09 pm

FuzzyBoots wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:42 pm
There's some basis for that. They lack the protection most legal citizens get when working. The need to avoid notice can take them to jobs for criminal organizations who similarly want to avoid notice. It's kind of parallel to the argument that we're better off legalizing drugs, abortion, or prostitution, since otherwise people will be driven to the seamy undergrowth.

Although, honestly, the prison work system is a better parallel for legalized slavery.
Well, the key difference between chattel slavery and prison labor is that you had to commit an illegal act, get convicted, and be sentenced to prison. Chattel slaves are born into the status.

Legalizing consensual crimes like prostitution, narcotics, etc. would significantly reduce our prison population as well.
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.

FuzzyBoots
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by FuzzyBoots » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:21 pm

Batgirl III wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:09 pm
Well, the key difference between chattel slavery and prison labor is that you had to commit an illegal act, get convicted, and be sentenced to prison. Chattel slaves are born into the status.
{nods} Although it doesn't take much. Stealing a can of beer, for example, seems like a minor thing, but there was a case in Idaho where a woman got charged with the felony charge of intent of theft, carrying a sentence of 1 to 10 years. Even if we're just looking at fines, a $500 fine can be virtually unpayable for someone who's on a fixed or low income and yes, you can get jailed for failure to pay that fine. Add to that that the cost of public defenders and the cost of being jailed can sometimes be charged to those found guilty and we are getting close to the point of slavery, albeit wage slavery rather than chattel slavery.
Batgirl III wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:09 pm
Legalizing consensual crimes like prostitution, narcotics, etc. would significantly reduce our prison population as well.
{nods} Albeit not as much as you might think. Most drug charges are still for a fairly short term (although, as noted above, that can still be prohibitively expensive for the poorer folk) with most of the longer offenses being the result of violent crimes also happening with those offenders. But it would reduce the number of people being thrown in for a month or two at a time.

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Batgirl III
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by Batgirl III » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:02 pm

But much of the violent crime associated with consensual crimes and black marketeering is a result of their illicit nature. McDonald’s doesn’t need to engage in a drive-by to “protect their corner” from Burger King, two rival cocaine dealers do.

You also need to take into account repeat offenders and related offenses. Here in Oregon, prostitution is a class A misdemeanor, punishable by up to one year in jail and a fine of up to $6,250. (2017 ORS 167.007) But the sentencing guidelines call for lengthier imprisonment for subsequent convictions (not to mention the high probability of subsequent convictions also being parole violations). Related charges like promoting prostitution, which can be as basic a thing as posting an ad online — thereby “[engaging in] conduct that ... facilitates an act or enterprise of prostitution” — is a class C Felony. (2017 ORS 167.012)

This creates something of a downward spiral. Locking someone into a lose/lose situation.
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L-Space
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by L-Space » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:29 pm

BriarThrone wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:39 pm
FuzzyBoots wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:59 pm
The question was raised of how much illegal immigrants contribute to the system versus what they get out of it. I was pointing out that they have a net positive contribution, which could change if we either eliminated those immigrants or gave them rights.
I pointed out that there is no statistics on the ratio of how many illegals are working what kind of jobs, contributing via identity theft vs suffering from exploitation, because, like as many pointed out in the space of a few minutes, the accuracy of data collected about subjects deliberately hidden from the authorities is, shall we say, "dubious." That's not to say that there's no statistics, though. Like these. Quick Google search.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/publicatio ... -taxpayers
I'm not sure if FAIR is the best place for accurate statistics as the organization beliefs are heavily skewed against immigration, both legal and illegal. Granted it's starting to get difficult to find any source of unbiased statistics these days.
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BriarThrone
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by BriarThrone » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:35 pm

L-Space wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:29 pm
BriarThrone wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:39 pm
FuzzyBoots wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:59 pm
The question was raised of how much illegal immigrants contribute to the system versus what they get out of it. I was pointing out that they have a net positive contribution, which could change if we either eliminated those immigrants or gave them rights.
I pointed out that there is no statistics on the ratio of how many illegals are working what kind of jobs, contributing via identity theft vs suffering from exploitation, because, like as many pointed out in the space of a few minutes, the accuracy of data collected about subjects deliberately hidden from the authorities is, shall we say, "dubious." That's not to say that there's no statistics, though. Like these. Quick Google search.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/publicatio ... -taxpayers
I'm not sure if FAIR is the best place for accurate statistics as the organization beliefs are heavily skewed against immigration, both legal and illegal. Granted it's starting to get difficult to find any source of unbiased statistics these days.
It is possible to hold a position firmly on one side of an issue based on available data. It is perfectly valid to cite such a source also. Not that I'm saying that FAIR specifically is a good source, but it was the very first search result. Illustrative. Their numbers and methods look solid to me, but I'm not an expert.

FuzzyBoots
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by FuzzyBoots » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:40 pm

BriarThrone wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:35 pm
It is possible to hold a position firmly on one side of an issue based on available data. It is perfectly valid to cite such a source also. Not that I'm saying that FAIR specifically is a good source, but it was the very first search result. Illustrative. Their numbers and methods look solid to me, but I'm not an expert.
{nods} So you similarly respect the statistics that I and others have posted about immigration? Valid data and among the first search results and all that? :)

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Ares
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by Ares » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:16 pm

Here's an actual Holocaust survivor's thoughts the matter:

https://www.facebook.com/Americanvoices ... 546106834/

BriarThrone
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by BriarThrone » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:19 am

Oh, yeah. I just remembered I hadn't responded to this yet.
FuzzyBoots wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:40 pm
BriarThrone wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:35 pm
It is possible to hold a position firmly on one side of an issue based on available data. It is perfectly valid to cite such a source also. Not that I'm saying that FAIR specifically is a good source, but it was the very first search result. Illustrative. Their numbers and methods look solid to me, but I'm not an expert.
{nods} So you similarly respect the statistics that I and others have posted about immigration? Valid data and among the first search results and all that? :)
You posted a page of statistics once. It wasn't bad. It failed to offer context regarding our border policies at the time, but then, it was a page of stats. It's not really supposed to.

When Ken asked if there were specific stats on a specific thing, you and Batgirl offered "stats," but even you offered the caveat of unreliable data. I said there's not stats, because to me, any set of statistics that suffers from the "how many ninjas" problem does not meet the criteria for "statistics." It's guesswork. My position is that "statistics" is too generous a word to describe a data set with too many unknowns to draw a useful conclusion.

You then said this:
FuzzyBoots wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:59 pm
Honestly, I feel like we're arguing in circles here. Short of appealing to statistics, which you claim don't exist, we're just arguing on the basis of passion.
I didn't claim there was no statistics on illegal immigration at all. I said that there were no useful statistics on Ken's question specifically, for reasons that you offered as a caveat to the data you offered.

I then provided the first page of viable statistics I could find. I didn't have the time to vet them properly, but as with all statistics, you have to evaluate on a case-by-case basis. I heard an accusation of bias, but that's ad hominem. I have yet to hear actual criticism of the data, and their methods, as I look closer, are pretty solid. I'd be interested in comparing this data to the data you provided for immigrants being a net economic boon to our economy, but I can't seem to find where you provided any of that. Just the assertion as a statement of fact.

Just like, for example, when you stated that illegal immigrants are less likely to commit non-immigration-related crime. No data provided. Just a statement, as if it was incontrovertible fact. I'm aware that there are articles out there that make the claim, but I'm unimpressed by their methodology, because I am familiar with the holes in the data they're using. For more information, see here.

So yeah, present some data. Let's discuss it. Don't misrepresent me again. Reading comprehension: not that hard.

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Ares
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by Ares » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:49 pm

You know, I legitimately don't wish really wish anything bad to happen to the vast, vast majority of people I have issues with. I like to think that, if you can sit two people down and have a rational discussion, and both at least try to have an open mind, a lot can change.

But I'd be lying if this didn't feel kind of karmic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmkn_1TchFQ&t=16s

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