Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

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Re: Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

Post by MacynSnow » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:47 am

Ken wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:37 am
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Thank you kenny,now i can give you all the applause you deserve....:D

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Re: Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

Post by Batgirl III » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:42 am

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Discord is freeware software and the server hosting is free. But, for some reason, Ms. Sarkeesian needs $25,000 in order to set one up. Toss in an extra $10k and she and her partners will "virtually" visit a single classroom... :roll:
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Re: Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

Post by Ken » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:00 pm

She says "FemFreq Discord" but she means "Honda Accord".

What, you thought she was just intellectually dishonest?
After his success co-authoring a murder mystery w/James Patterson, Marvel is now talking to Bill Clinton about doing some comics writing: a revival of Steve Gerber's swamp monster hero. They expect Bill Clinton's 'Man-Thing' will be very popular.

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Re: Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

Post by Woodclaw » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:09 pm

Gen-con is, sadly still too pricy for me (especially this years since I planning to go to Essen).

There's one thing that I would really like to know about Ms. Sarkeesian's views. In most of her critiques she pretty much said that the common representation of women in media is flawed, which is statement that I might support, but that's where I stop. I've only watched a few of her video (sorry my stiomach have limits) and the general vibe I got from that and some of her interviews is that she did a reductio ad unum, she bundled up all opposition in a single P.O.V.: if don't agree with her you're probably a male that faps at these fictional characters adn consider women purely as a sexual object.
What about the other women?
I've met quite a few women over the years that actually enjoyed these representations. In the words of my friend Jess: "When I was a little girl all the other girls on the block wanted to be a princess. Me too, I wanted to be Wonder Woman."
So what I want to know by Ms. Sarkeesian or one of her collaborators: what about these women? What about those who actually feel empowered by the idea of being Lara Croft or Bayonetta? What about those who want to be Wonder Woman, not just because she's powerful but also because she's beautiful?

Her reasoning seem like the Stormwind Fallacy of media, the idea that every character must be polarized within a very specific grid of dos and don'ts without any wiggle room.
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Re: Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

Post by Woodclaw » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:09 pm

Ken wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:00 pm
She says "FemFreq Discord" but she means "Honda Accord".

What, you thought she was just intellectually dishonest?
What?
"You're right. Sorry. Holy shit," I breathed, "heckhounds.”

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Re: Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

Post by Ken » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:16 pm

It is intellectually dishonest to be touted as an expert in a field one has no experience in.

It is financially dishonest to ask people to pay for freeware and free server hosting. Made more egregious when the amount of money is enough for
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After his success co-authoring a murder mystery w/James Patterson, Marvel is now talking to Bill Clinton about doing some comics writing: a revival of Steve Gerber's swamp monster hero. They expect Bill Clinton's 'Man-Thing' will be very popular.

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Re: Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

Post by Ares » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:30 pm

Woodclaw wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:09 pm
Gen-con is, sadly still too pricy for me (especially this years since I planning to go to Essen).

There's one thing that I would really like to know about Ms. Sarkeesian's views. In most of her critiques she pretty much said that the common representation of women in media is flawed, which is statement that I might support, but that's where I stop. I've only watched a few of her video (sorry my stiomach have limits) and the general vibe I got from that and some of her interviews is that she did a reductio ad unum, she bundled up all opposition in a single P.O.V.: if don't agree with her you're probably a male that faps at these fictional characters adn consider women purely as a sexual object.
What about the other women?
I've met quite a few women over the years that actually enjoyed these representations. In the words of my friend Jess: "When I was a little girl all the other girls on the block wanted to be a princess. Me too, I wanted to be Wonder Woman."
So what I want to know by Ms. Sarkeesian or one of her collaborators: what about these women? What about those who actually feel empowered by the idea of being Lara Croft or Bayonetta? What about those who want to be Wonder Woman, not just because she's powerful but also because she's beautiful?

Her reasoning seem like the Stormwind Fallacy of media, the idea that every character must be polarized within a very specific grid of dos and don'ts without any wiggle room.
From what I've seen, Anita doesn't actually engage her critics in debate, because it would only take a moderately skilled debater who knows their stuff to destroy most of her arguments. Heck, Appabend is basically a poor kid who can barely speak English and he made a video that took apart her "Not Your Exotic Fantasy" video. It's not hard to do with even a mild amount of research. So of course, she declares everyone who disagrees with her as harassing her and refuses to engage, because then her entire narrative falls apart and even her most ardent supporters would see her for the huckster that she is.

And if the person disagreeing with her was a woman, if Anita ever decided to acknowledge her, the answer would likely be some variant of "internalized misogyny".

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Re: Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

Post by MacynSnow » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:53 pm

You see,this is one of my major dislikes about today's Society: Everybody talks but no one listen's to the other.One of my late Uncle's had a saying that cover's her Entire rhetoric(Warning:This is completely innappropriate and mildly vulgar.Don't like it,don't read it.)
"Opinions are like Ass cracks:EVERYBODIES got one..."

Now my uncles were raised in the 50's, 60's, and my mom&youngest Uncle in the 70's respectively.While their opinion's were slightly outdated,it was all based around something this woman seems to lack: Common Sense. She & her ilk want to be seen as important to the world,so they go about raising as much stink as they can about something,not sitting down and having an honest pro/con discussion 'bout it,just raising as much stink as they can.The best way i found to deal with an Instigator like her is 2-fold:Hit her wallet and completely ignore her.Since we know she's gonna be at Gen Con,as much as it'll hurt,don't go or cancel your tickets.If enough folks cancel due to her being there,the people backing Gen Con'll drop her like a live Grenade.When she get's on her soapbox to preach/complain about it(remember,i'm an old caveman so anything she does sound's like Soapboxing to me), don't listen to what she has to say.Unsubscribe from her channel, and if enough people follow suit,she'll do or say something increadably stupid or Attack something/someone she shouldn't and get hit with "Instant Karmic Backlash".

While she did originally have some good points,like the houseguest's in Homer's The Odyssey she's gotten too full of herself and needs to be kicked out before she does more damage....

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Re: Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

Post by Batgirl III » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:44 pm

If I may be so gauche as to quote myself, here’s a takedown of an article praising Ms. Sarkeesian that I wrote a few years ago:

Source article: https://archive.is/sb2mv
“Batgirl III” wrote: Monday, the University welcomed media critic Anita Sarkeesian for a lecture on sexist and anti-feminist tropes in video games.
Anita Sarkeesian holds a BA in "communications" from the University of California and in 2010 earned her Masters Degree in "social and political thought" from York University. I mention this because I find it worth noting that this famous "media critic" had no experience in the video game industry (not one hour of work as a designer, writer, programmer, or even saleswoman) and held no academic credentials when she launched Feminist Frequency in 2009.

She's routinely touted by supporters as an expert... But has no academic or practical expertise.

Since her work discussing games began, she has been the subject of online harassment, including rape and death threats, hacking and identity theft.
No criminal charges against any one responsible for this "harassment" have been filed in any jurisdiction that I can google. Certainly no convictions.

Sarkeesian attracts an awful lot of trolls... But, hey, that's the life of a famous person on the Internet. Especially when you made your reputation and make your living by criticizing a massively popular medium. Siskel and Ebert got death threats from trolls too.

Pull up your big girl pants and ignore the trolls. Report any credible threats to the proper authorities. Press charges. Present evidence. Get a conviction. Until that happens, I'm calling this bullshit.

Chairman of the Computer Science department Prof. Jordan Pollack (COSI) introduced Sarkeesian, stating his pleasure at the lecture’s co-sponsors, and pointing out that “it’s not often that computer science works together with the various women’s studies groups on campus.”

Because STEM students have actual work to do.

Pollack said he was inspired to invite Sarkeesian to speak at the University after a colleague suggested that more women and people of color might be inspired to pursue computer science if the University’s department taught game programming and design, and Sarkeesian’s story stood out to Pollack. “I believe a modern university must study and teach video games as a multidisciplinary media,” Pollack said.

First of all, dumbass, if you think more students would pursue a degree Discipline XYZ if only your school taught Discipline XYZ... Well, maybe you should try it, eh? If the owner of a bakery thinks more people would buy chocolate chip muffins if only he made some, y'know what he does? He bakes the fucking muffins.

Second, why the fuck would Sarkeesian —a communications major undergrad with a master's in social theory—be any kind of inspiration to someone interested in computer programing. That's like expecting NASCAR driver Danica Patrick to inspire people to become concert violinists.

Sarkeesian said she started Feminist Frequency because she was frustrated at the inaccessibility of feminist thought she discovered in college.

Please, someone, anyone, find me a college or university anywhere in North America or Western Europe where some sort of survey course in feminist thought isn't a requirement of all students, regardless of program. For the love of Chesty Puller, it's a core course requirement at all four of the United State's military service academies! (Because when I get led into combat, I feel comforted by knowing my platoon's lieutenant has read the Redstockings Manifesto. [Insert eye roll.])

Sarkeesian asserted that Gamergate is an extension of this same mob mentality and that it works to maintain the status quo of games being made primarily for men. She then compared the exclusion of women in gaming to the .”

Sarkeesian can assert with the best of them. She rarely – if ever– provides evidence to support her assertions.
I can assert that Sarkeesian is a Venusian Lizardman sent to Earth as the vanguard of an invasion. Unless I provide some sort of evidence to that end, I'm just a whackjob making shit up.

“The idea that you can love something and be critical of it at the same time is so important to what I do,” Sarkeesian told the audience as she transitioned into the heart of the lecture[.]

I love women (figuratively and biblically). I love equality. I love politics. But if I try to be as equally critical of a female politician or, say, a female academic who specializes in "political and social thought" do you know what happens? I'm shouted down by Sarkeesian's followers en masse.

The first trope was the “Smurfette Principle,” wherein a story has only one female character for a full ensemble of men. Sarkeesian specifically pointed out 2013’s “The Wonderful 101,” which features seven playable male characters who are color-coded, but only one female character, whose color is pink. Sarkeesian noted that the female character’s abilities reinforce that “‘girl’ is her personality,” pointing out that she fights with a dominatrix-esque whip and is introduced in a trailer for the game through a shot that needlessly includes her underwear.

Yep, that's an annoying anecdote about that one game. But show of hands, who here has ever heard of this game?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller...?

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data." Earlier I said that Sarkeesian is prone to making assertions without evidence. This example here illustrates this point and shows how she gets away with it.

Sarkeesian claims that a storytelling technique is problematic in general. She cites one or two specific and egregious examples. Then moves on to her next talking point before her audience can notice her logical fallacy.
Actual evidence would involve, I dunno, actual data?

How many games were released for Console XYZ in Year N? What percentage of those games used the Smurfette Principle trope?

Sarkeesian introduced the second trope — “Lingerie Is Not Armor,” — by showing a trailer for the 2000 game “Perfect Dark,” which depicted its female spy protagonist taking a shower, putting on makeup, and deciding on an outfit.

A fifteen year old cutscene of a woman putting on normal clothes. Not armor. That's the best evidence to support this assertion? Really?

In fact, we once again see her using obfuscation instead of evidence. How many games in a given period use this trope?

Oh, and of course, she's also assuming we take it as a given that sexy women in sexy clothes is a negative. Because Sarkeesian is essentially a sex-negative, body-shaming, reactionary prude. Like a Victorian Health & Morals Inspector taking a tape measure to women's bathing suits lest an exposed leg start a riot.

Her third trope was called “One Size Does Not Fit All,” which she introduced by pointing out that almost all female characters in the game “League of Legends” are young, large-breasted, slender women. Sarkeesian stated that since sexualized women are almost the only women depicted in the medium, it reinforces that these characters’ worth is to excite the audience. She elaborated that those who point out sexualized men in games to counter her arguments are creating a false equivalency. Showing an image of the main characters from the upcoming game “Overwatch,” Sarkeesian pointed out that the male characters have a range of body types, while all but one of the female characters are sexualized.

One word: shotoclone.

Two words: pallet swap.

Video games are infamous for reusing the same model for multiple characters. The most famous and iconic of these are all male: Mario & Luigi; Ken & Ryu; Scorpion & Subzero...

Now, how many of the male characters in League of Legends or Overwatch use the same general body shape? She claims this is a false equivalency... But doesn't actually say why. In fact, claiming that this is a false equivalency contradicts her previous Smurfette trope! If the number of male characters with an idealized body shape is equivalent to the number of female characters with an idealized body shape... Well, then it must follow that the numbers of characters are equivalent.

And again we have body shaming and anti-sex ideology as an assumed given. Sarkeesian never says why it's a bad thing that men are excited by the sight of young, large-breasted, slender women. It just is.

The fourth trope, humorously titled “Strategic Butt Coverings,” began with a series of clips of female player characters walking in games, all of which featured camera angles that prominently display the characters’ behinds. To contrast this, Sarkeesian showed clips of male player characters — when the player could focus the camera on a male characters’ behind, heavy clothing or capes obscured the characters’ cheeks, which contrasted sharply with the female characters.

Almost all third-person games have user adjustable cameras. If you point the camera at the characters' butt, you'll get an eyeful of butt. Odd how that works.
No hard evidence. Anti-sex. Assumes given negative idea. Yadda yadda yadda.

Fifth, Sarkeesian noted that women in games are overwhelmingly white, and that when women of color are depicted, it—

Stop. Stop right the fuck there.

The estimated top national revenues for the video game industry internationally in 2016 are as follows: China ($24.4 Billion with a B), the United States ($23.5B), and Japan ($12.4B). China is the largest country by game revenue, and has a population of dedicated hobbyist gamers that exceeds the total population of the United States.

Unless Sarkeesian is asserting that Chinese and Japanese are "white people," or she's ignoring the first and third largest sectors for the industry this trope is absolute horseshit.

Sarkeesian then pointed out the sexualization of female characters’ walking animations, comparing a clip of Catwoman in “Batman: Arkham City” to a model on a runway.

Catwoman has been a hyper-sexualized pop culture character since the 1940's. Long before video games existed. Hell, she was strutting sexually around the pages of Detective Comics three full years before Alan Turing got Colossus built at Bletchley Park. Fucking Franklin Delano Roosevelt was in office when Catwoman started vamping her way across pop culture.

Not only is she offering a single anecdotal point in order to claim a broader general trend, she is doing so incredibly poorly.

Citing Catwoman as an example of the sexualization of female video game characters is like citing Marilyn Monroe as an example of the sexualization of female film characters. Sexuality is intrinsic to why this character exists.

Finally, Sarkeesian asked the audience: “Where Are All the Female Combatants?” She pointed out that games rarely feature women as standard enemies and said that game designers she’s interviewed often say that this is done to avoid depicting violence against women.

Women are a standard enemy in the Grand Theft Auto series. Anyone care to guess at Sarkeesian's opinions of those titles?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller...?

Now, let me be clear, I am not claiming that video games as a medium lack misogynist themes. They might. They might not. That is not my purpose in writing this.
My purpose is twofold: (1) to illustrate that Anita Sarkeesian is a terrible source to cite when you claim that misogyny is a problem and (2) that Sarkeesian and her followers are very bad at presenting their arguments.
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Re: Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

Post by Chris Brady » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:52 pm

Nunya B wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:05 pm
Oh no, somebody whose greatest accomplishment is having been cyberbullied by 4chan is going to speak somewhere! Why does anyone care about this woman?
It's not that she's there, it's that the people in charge of GenCon actually thought that a woman whose opinions are viperous, poisonous and built on self-made lies and fabrications was IMPORTANT enough to invite.

That's the frightening part. She now has an ear to one of the most willing to be guilted into activities group of people. People who are often all too easily bullied.

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Re: Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

Post by Batgirl III » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:12 pm

It also follows on the heels of Larry Corriea having his Guest of Honor invite to Orgins revoked at the eleventh hour because of empty accusations by Twitter users.

Larry Corriea is NYT best selling author of sci-fi and fantasy, including a couple Warmachine tie-in novels; a guy with two roleplaying games based on his work; and a guys who’s massively popular blog often covers RPGs, minis, and the like... Hell, a fictionalized version of him is even a member of G.I. Joe! And a Rokugan Samurai!

Larry Corriea is a roleplaying/miniature gaming industry professional with massive “street cred” as a hobbyist not just a creator. He got kicked out of the second largest hobby gaming industry event in the world and Sarkeesian gets given the stage at GenCon. It’s ridiculous.
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Re: Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

Post by catsi563 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:32 pm

yeah its pretty much what Ares said and its where she lost me as well. she took a problem that could use some work, and instead of working on the problem turned it into a cause de'celeb that she could monetize thus destroying any credibility she had in the process, and drastically setting back the actual cause.

then compounded it by using the actual real attacks against her as an excuse to shut down ANY debate or dissent against her by trying to marginalize it or frame it as more adhom against her. Now anyone who debates her or dares to disagree is either a troll or misogynist or a fake feminist or worse and summarily dismissed or attacked by her followers, she doesn't even have to do anything any more because the instant kneejerk is so strong its ridiculous.

the fact that she can cause the industry such a headache with no actual basis in the industry is even more insulting to me, and a major problem.
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Re: Terror comes to Gen Con in 2018

Post by Batgirl III » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:04 pm

Her appearance before the UN is especially troublesome to me. Given that so many countries like China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Myanmar, Singapore, and the United Kingdom have demonstrated a willingness to censor, censure, and otherwise “thought police” their own people, it scares the shit out of me to see Ms. Sarkeesian and Ms. Quinn giving a figleaf of respectability to the idea of censorship based on “that offends muh feels!”
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