Jab’s Builds (Jacks! Paul Phoenix! Marshall Law! Eddy Gordo!)

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Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!!)

Post by Jabroniville » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:27 am

Yeah, it was definitely more common in those days. It's actually the most dated thing about the '80s Teen Titans run, aside from Wonder Girl's costume- Terry Long, Azrael and Jericho ALL sport very curly manes of hair. My old build of Azrael back in the day actually had the note "OKAY I GET IT, IT WAS THE 1980s!" or something under Azrael's pic with the curly hair :).

Aqualad always had the hair, too. I don't think it straightened out until Phil Jiminez gave him a redesign, and even then Phil made it a bit curly.

Edit: Hrm, looking at YouTube videos of some Rise of the Robots stuff, I'm not getting much of a sense for the movesets of some guys. I only checked out Mayhem and Naden so far, but whoever's playing them and posting the videos is really only hitting their basic moves. GameFaqs only lists the main characters' moves. Does everyone have the same Energy Blasts? The Wiki says something about copying others' blasts.

Jabroniville
Posts: 10501
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Tempest

Post by Jabroniville » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:40 pm

ImageImage

TEMPEST (Garth, aka Aqualad I)
Created By:
Robert Bertnstein & Ramona Fradon
First Appearance: Adventure Comics #269 (Feb. 1960)
Role: Teen Sidekick, The Bristling Sidekick, The Normal Guy
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, The Titans, Atlantis
PL 10 (175)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 8 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+10)
Expertise (History) 4 (+6)
Expertise (Magic) 4 (+6)
Expertise (Atlantis) 8 (+10)
Insight 4 (+6)
Intimidation 3 (+6)
Perception 6 (+8)
Persuasion 8 (+11)
Ranged Combat (Special Powers) 2 (+10)
Stealth 5 (+9)

Advantages:
Fast Grab, Favoured Environment (Underwater), Improved Aim, Improved Hold, Ranged Attack 4, Ritualist, Set-Up 2, Teamwork

Powers:
"Undersea Capabilities"
Swimming 8 (60 mph) [8]
Movement (Environmental Adaptation- Aquatic) [2]
Immunity 3 (Pressure, Drowning, Cold) [3]
Senses 3 (Low-Light Vision, Extended Hearing & Scent) [3]

"Vague Magical Abilities"
"Water Control" Move Object 10 (Feats: Dynamic) (Extras: Perception Range) (Flaws: Limited to Water) (21) -- [30]
  • Dynamic AE: "Eye Beams" Energy Blast 8 (Feats: Accurate, Dynamic) (18)
  • Dynamic AE: "Thermal Control" Environment 3 (Heat 2) (Feats: Dynamic) (Flaws: Limited to Within Water) (4)
  • Dynamic AE: "Cold Control" Environment 3 (Heat 2) (Feats: Dynamic) (Flaws: Limited to Within Water) (4)
  • Dynamic AE: "Iced Water" Snare 9 (Feats: Dynamic) (Flaws: Source- Water) (19)
  • AE: Movement 3 (Dimensional Movement 3) (Extras: Portal +2) (12)
Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Eye Beams +12 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Iced Water +10 (+9 Ranged Affliction, DC 19)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +11 (DC 21), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +8, Fortitude +8, Will +8

Complications:
Relationship (Dolphin & Cerdian)- Garth eventually hooked up with Aquaman's old squeeze, and had a son with her.
Relationship (Aquaman)- Garth sometimes rankles under the spectre of his mentor and father-figure, who is often brusque and controlling.
Weakness (Lack of Water)- Atlanteans require more water than do ordinary humans.
Prejudice (Purple Eyes)- Garth was born with purple eyes, marking him for death by his weird culture. Aquaman saved his life, but some still mistrust him.
Disabled (Partially Colour-Blind)- Garth is largely-unable to see the differences between black, green & blue. I've never seen this come up.

Total: Abilities: 80 / Skills: 46--23 / Advantages: 12 / Powers: 46 / Defenses: 14 (175)

Aqualad- Dumbest Name Ever:
-Aqualad may possess the record for the stupidest name in comic book history. You could do all the talking up comics you want to to people, then bust out the name "Aqualad" and they would pretty much crap their pants with laughter on the spot- when I was a kid looking at some of the DC Cards to compare to the cooler Marvel Cards, I came across THIS loser and pretty much decided then and there that Marvel had to've been the superior company. And he didn't really do much in the Titans either; he was the least-used of the Fab Five, frequently got replaced (writers at the time complained that both he & Aquaman were useless- they were always weak without water, necessitating their being inlets, rivers and fjords everywhere), and wasn't even a fixture of the Wolfman/Perez books, where even Speedy showed up occasionally. His biggest moment was having his girlfriend Tula (Aquagirl) die in the Crisis as one of the many "these characters suck, so we're using this opportunity to kill them" deaths in that series- poor Garth wasn't even a major fixture in AQUAMAN books by this point!

-Aqualad actually debuted YEARS after Aquaman's creation, which is surprising- Robin and Speedy are Golden Age characters, and Wally West debuted right on the heels of Barry Allen only a few years earlier. Like, he debuted almost twenty years after his mentor did. In any case, Aqualad was one of the founding Teen Titans, having been Aquaman's kid partner for a few years. Young Garth was left to die as an infant due to Atlantean prophecy (he had purple eyes), and rescued by Aquaman's father Atlan. He would grow into Aquaman's sidekick, often giving the goofiest lines possible, like "Great Guppies!" or "Suffering Snails!". Real cheeseball stuff. Aqualad began to be phased out when Aquaman married Mera and had the Aquababy. He even lost an arm!

-Aqualad was given a few things to do, at least. He discovered the truth behind his past (his parents were royalty, but his father was murdered and his mom was evil), and rejoined the Titans occasionally. He met and fell in love with Tula, who became Aquagirl, but she died at the hands of Chemo's poison during the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Despite his importance to Titans lore, he essentially went untouched during the Wolfman/Perez years- you can absolutely tell that neither creator gave a crap about Garth, as he had one or two mini-arcs (Who Killed Trident?), but was otherwise absent. He was badly injured during a Titans Hunt story-arc, and disappeared for a while.

Garth Becomes Tempest:
-As Aqualad, Garth was thus one of DC's most maligned and un-used "classic" characters. This set the stage for Phil Jiminez to turn him into Tempest, copying a discarded Aquaman costume and changing the colors to make him quite cool, and adjusting his silly "White Guy Afro" into the "short curly hair" look adopted by a lot of characters who appeal to gay fans (I noticed this when both Tempest & Element Lad had the same haircut, which drew a surprising amount of male attention- it's a fetish I was unaware of, but the very gay Jiminez probably utilized). I remember one gay fan mentioning online that "Tempest would be AWESOME in real life". In the Tempest mini-series, Garth was tossed into another dimension, where Atlan awaited to train him- the wizard gave Garth the power to fire Energy Beams from his eyes, and adjust the temperature of water rapidly. This led to the hilarious circumstances of Tempest being the first Sidekick to COMPLETELY surpass his mentor in terms of power and scope while said mentor was still alive.

-Tempest thus rejoined the Aquaman book with elevated powers and a new focus. In a shocker that annoyed some fans, Aquaman's lover Dolphin soon left him for Tempest, and the two were quickly married- this did little to fix the problems Arthur & Garth were having- Arthur's condescending, casual attitude towards his former partner was a sticking point (there's a great bit in the JLA/Titans crossover where Aquaman's all "hey Garth, just knock it off and let's go, okay?" and Garth just LIGHTS him up with his Purple Eye Beams, screaming "I am so sick of you MAN-HANDLING me!"). It was at this point that Devin Grayson took charge of a new Titans book, which led to a re-push for Tempest as a bit of a "voice of reason"- he was one of the only members of the team not constantly brooding (Nightwing), leaving for the League (Flash), going through intense personal turmoil (Donna, Cyborg, Damage), etc. It didn't really make him that ENTERTAINING, but hell- someone's gotta be the normal one to let everyone else be a nutjob!

-Honestly, though, his best bit was when Starfire and her people were assaulting Gordanian civilians in the final moments of their war, and a horrified Garth, eager to create a ceasefire and set up aid to the refugees, diplomatically passed it off as "oh, you're a warrior culture- we WANT to help you, but we were afraid that if we'd simply asked, you'd have thought us weak!"- the Gordanian ambassador actually laughs and acknowledges his point! Tempest's wife and son (Cerdian) were recurring minor elements of The Titans, in that the writers had to ACKNOWLEDGE them, but they rarely got a focus (much more was given to Arsenal's daughter Lian, who was nearly constantly threatened by bad guys). Finally, Dolphin gave him an ultimatum- her or the Titans. He relucantly quit the team (and the book, which was falling apart by that point anyways).

Tempest Gets Screwed Around:
-Tempest was erased for a while by The Spectre's rampage against magic, but returned an anmensiac during "One Year Later" (after Infinite Crisis). He lost his extra powers and was a bit screwed-up physically... but poor editing meant that many writers forgot about this as it was going on, as the constant events in DC resulted in many fully-powered Tempest appearances. The sense that "nobody cares about Tempest" was only further enhanced when he was one of the most casual, unfocused-upon deaths during Blackest Night, in which a Black Lantern Aquaman murders his old sidekick. Black Lantern Tempest thus assaults various Titans, but is fought off by Dawn "Dove" Granger and finally destroyed by The Atom and Atrocitus combinging the powers of their Power Rings into him. Garth thus dies, and actually NEVER RETURNS during this continuity- Aquaman gets his own re-push afterwards, without him.

-A new Aqualad was created during the "New 52", attempting to add some more minorities to the DCU, but a purple-eyed boy named Garth is seen in Aquaman. He later allies with Queen Mera. When DC rebooted itself AGAIN, he appeared with the other adult Titans, having remembered bits and pieces of their past.

Garth as a Whole:
-Garth has a pretty tough time getting respect in the DCU- as the most forgotten of the "Big Five Sidekicks", he was never even important to the Titans, and was frequently dumped from Aquaman's own book as well. This pretty much dooms most characters to a life as "the guy crazy stuff happens to", so it's a bit of a wonder he was only rarely maimed, tortured, exiled from continuity or dead. His '90s run as Tempest is literally the only time he has ever mattered to anything, but unfortunately it only resulted in "Prominent Supporting Character in C-Tier Books" and that's it. His death during Blackest Night was ridiculously casual and meant almost nothing- an indication of just how little DC thought of him.

Tempest's Powers:
-Tempest gains a huge power boost thanks to his many upgrades, attaching some Magic (ie. "Whatever power the writer currently wants him to have to get out of a story") to his already increasing abilities. And he has shown some TREMENDOUS abilities in the comics, as he whips out a massive teleportation beam into the past taking ALL OF ATLANTIS with him. I chose to showcase those sorts of things as modifications of his magical might with Hero Points put in, as well as his Ritualist Advantage. Primarily, though, he's just gonna be using his Eye Blasts and controlling water with Thermal and Cold Control attached to them as weapons. He came off like a very solid PL 10 in the Titans book, frequently being used to wrap up the bad guys in the end (so long as there was, like, a water fountain nearby or something), or throw out some Background Energy Blasts.

ImageImage

AQUALAD I (Garth)
Created By:
Robert Bertnstein & Ramona Fradon
First Appearance: Adventure Comics #269 (Feb. 1960)
Role: Teen Sidekick, Shy Guy, The Normal Guy
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, The Titans, Atlantis
PL 7 (98)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 8 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Expertise (Atlantis) 4 (+5)
Insight 2 (+4)
Perception 4 (+6)
Stealth 2 (+5)

Advantages:
Fast Grab, Favoured Environment (Underwater), Ranged Attack 2, Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
"Undersea Capabilities"
Swimming 8 (60 mph) [8]
Movement (Environmental Adaptation- Aquatic) [2]
Immunity 3 (Pressure, Drowning, Cold) [3]
Senses 3 (Low-Light Vision, Extended Hearing & Scent) [3]

Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +6 (DC 16), Parry +6 (DC 16), Toughness +8, Fortitude +8, Will +5

Complications:
Relationship (Aquaman)- Garth sometimes rankles under the spectre of his mentor and father-figure, who is often brusque and controlling.
Prejudice (Purple Eyes)- Garth was born with purple eyes, marking him for death by his weird culture. Aquaman saved his life, but some still mistrust him.
Disabled (Partially Colour-Blind)- Garth is largely-unable to see the differences between black, green & blue. I've never seen this come up.

Total: Abilities: 64 / Skills: 12--6 / Advantages: 6 / Powers: 16 / Defenses: 6 (98)

-Sidekick-era Aqualad is pretty ineffectual compared to Tempest, and is notable (especially retroactively) for being underconfident. In the 1980s, he only made EVER so few cameos in the main book, but probably hit PL 8 by that point- I only really remember him running around with his goofy afro (George Perez LOVED drawing white men with afros back in the day, despite Cyborg having pretty plain hair for the time- I think he took it as an excuse to draw even MORE detail on people than their normally would have been :). and never really being important.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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KorokoMystia
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!!)

Post by KorokoMystia » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:43 pm

Jabroniville wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:27 am
Yeah, it was definitely more common in those days. It's actually the most dated thing about the '80s Teen Titans run, aside from Wonder Girl's costume- Terry Long, Azrael and Jericho ALL sport very curly manes of hair. My old build of Azrael back in the day actually had the note "OKAY I GET IT, IT WAS THE 1980s!" or something under Azrael's pic with the curly hair :).

Aqualad always had the hair, too. I don't think it straightened out until Phil Jiminez gave him a redesign, and even then Phil made it a bit curly.

Edit: Hrm, looking at YouTube videos of some Rise of the Robots stuff, I'm not getting much of a sense for the movesets of some guys. I only checked out Mayhem and Naden so far, but whoever's playing them and posting the videos is really only hitting their basic moves. GameFaqs only lists the main characters' moves. Does everyone have the same Energy Blasts? The Wiki says something about copying others' blasts.
I believe the Wiki that I checked (this one) has movesets for each character (even the secret and unplayable ones!) listed on their page in the moveset sub-page, at least, though if there's any character's moves in specifc you need figuring out, I can probably check the game myself. I did also find someone that did gameplay with all the hidden/boss characters, even the elusive two characters that are exclusive to the PC Director's Cut version, which is very rare. Here is a link to the first Rise 2 video in that playlist. But yeah, a lot of the characters are simply variants of the main ones.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest!)

Post by Ken » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:06 pm

I will never understand how thick comic book writers could and can be about Aquaman and Aqualad.

I chalk it up to the fact that I was very slow in learning how to swim, and even today, I'm not that good at it, but I always liked them, and typically found them under utelised. Being able to function underwater as well as they do should have made them powerhouses on land. But somehow there were a couple of generations of comic book writers who couldn't understand that. It was there in the earliest Aquaman stories, and then it was forgotten.

But another thing is that Aqualad could be useful in places that aren't near the ocean. For instance, in "The Judas Contract", Nightwing and Jericho are in the snow-covered peaks of the Rocky mountains. Aqualad would have made a great ally there. He's strong, he's capable. He'd be unaffected by the cold, and if he needed water... they were in the snow-covered peaks. There's water all around. The barest application of body heat and....
...

Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest!)

Post by Jabroniville » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:31 pm

I get the impression most writers just didn’t care about them. “Atlantis Is Boring” being an omnipresent problem in comics didn’t help. And when you add in that their strength was usually below many of their teammates’ (a problem shares with fellow land duck shank Pum, who has vast powers... unless he’s on the Avengers, where’s he’s low-tier), you had a recipe for “UUUGGGGHHHHHH” from the writers.

I don’t think the characters were terribly well-written until the 1990s, either. And since writers didn’t care (and Aquaman was a HUGE public pop culture joke post-Superfriends), why would they bother unless they had to? They had other, better characters to deal with. Once the characters got “Catmanned”, suddenly they seemed way more okay.

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Aquagirl (Tula)

Post by Jabroniville » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:28 am

Image
Image

AQUAGIRL III (Tula)
Created By:
Bob Haney & Nick Cardy
First Appearance: Aquaman #33 (May 1967)
Role: Girl Sidekick
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, Atlantis
PL 8 (111)
STRENGTH
7 STAMINA 7 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 7 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Athletics 2 (+9)
Expertise (Atlantis) 6 (+7)
Insight 3 (+5)
Perception 3 (+5)
Stealth 2 (+5)

Advantages:
Equipment (Trident +1- Reach), Favoured Environment (Underwater), Ranged Attack 2, Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
"Undersea Capabilities"
Swimming 8 (60 mph) [8]
Movement (Environmental Adaptation- Aquatic) [2]
Immunity 3 (Pressure, Drowning, Cold) [3]
Senses 3 (Low-Light Vision, Extended Hearing & Scent) [3]

"Talk To Fish"
Comprehend 2 (Animals) (Flaws: Limited to Marine Life) [2]
Communication (Mental) 1 (Extras: Area) (Flaws: Limited to Marine Life) [4]

Offense:
Unarmed +7 (+7 Damage, DC 22)
Trident +7 (+7 Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +7, Fortitude +7, Will +5

Complications:
Relationship (Aqualad)- Tula & Garth were totes in love. When she dies, he mourns for like a decade of our-time.

Total: Abilities: 66 / Skills: 16--8 / Advantages: 6 / Powers: 22 / Defenses: 9 (111)

-Aquagirl debuted in 1967, becoming the first Aquagirl to become a recurring character (the prior two were just one-shots meant for a single appearance- apparently teasing or testing the concept to judge fan reactions), and was your classic Princess Who Wanted MORE, meeting up with Aqualad and leaving the castle for the first time when she was 15. She helps out the original Teen Titans briefly, and led a rebellion against some random Atlantean villain who wanted the throne (do all Aquaman enemies do that?), but was never really a major character. I mean, she as THE GIRLFRIEND of a guy who wasn't even a major character! She helped out Garth again in the 1980s Teen Titans series, aiding him against the H.I.V.E., but Wolfman & Perez obviously were never that taken with her, as she was one of the random side-victims during the Crisis on Infinite Earths, drowning in the poisoned water of Chemo. I recall that was pretty much her first and last appearance in that story, too.

-Her Refridgeration was pretty much the "Gwen Stacy" moment of poor Garth, who pretty much only showed up after that to mourn her passing (I mean, he wasn't a regular in ANY book, so "his girlfriend is dead" was the most important thing ABOUT him for a while). He FINALLY gains a sense of closure in his own Limited Series (Phil Jiminez based it off of his own feelings after his boyfriend/partner died of AIDS), and they finally stop mentioning her every time Garth shows up. It helps that he married another girl. Of course, then she came back as a Black Lantern and killed him- some women you can just never escape. She's since returned in "The Nu52" as an Aquaman supporting character, actually without Garth this time (who's only sorta mentioned in passing), and there was a fourth, unrelated Aquagirl in the Aquaman & Titans books in the 2000s.

-Tula's pretty plain as far as Undersea characters go (nobody BUT Aquaman can do that "Talk to Fish" thing, right? None of the bios mention those powers), using a Trident to hit PL 7.5 and be a solid ally for PL 8 (by this point) Aqualad.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest!)

Post by Jack of Spades » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:36 am

Really, I think the best thing for Aqualad was the total reboot of the character in Young Justice. With a blank slate, they could make him a level-headed leader, yet still a fish out of water in a some situations, and add some interesting ties to Black Manta. And the hard water melee weapons were cool. They dropped Garth in as a background character, Kaldur's old rival.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest!)

Post by Ken » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:54 am

In the classic series, it largely varied on who was writing.

Aqualad was in the first 44% of the series (first 19 out of 43 issues), and the first 17 were all by Bob Haney, who apparently had no real problem with including Garth. It was that starting with issue 18, the Teen Titans no longer had a regular writer. They apparently had a group they alternated through. It was a lot of these new writers (and at the time they were new): Marv Wolfman, Len Wein, Gary Freidrich, et al. who apparently couldn't handle Aqualad. Steve Skeates gave Garth a big role in the "geez, this giving up your costumes and powers is stupid" story in #28-29, and a Garth and Tula story on land in #30. And then Garth appeared one more time in #40, another Haney issue. The series ended with #43, Garth was in just over half of the run.

A few years later, the book was revived with #44. Aqualad was missing from #44. But was in #45 onward, through #53. Although around #48-49, Rozakis appeared to be trying to get rid of him.

So, yeah, among a lot of writers, Aqualad gets no respect. But there were a few who did respect him. Just not enough.
...

Jabroniville
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Hawk & Dove

Post by Jabroniville » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:43 am

ImageImageImageImageImageImage

It was strange. A lot of changes would happen after I turned in a script. Quite often, my idea of what to do with the Dove was have him do brave stuff – and then it would be changed by either Dick [Giordano] or Steve into the Hawk doing that stuff. They’d say it was out of character for the Dove. They seemed to be equating Dove with wimp, wuss, coward or whatever. And I don’t really think it was because they were more hawkish. I just don’t think that they knew what a dove was.
-Steve Skeates, in a 1999 interview, talking about co-creator Steve Ditko


HAWK & DOVE:
-uggggggggggggghhhhhhhhh- THESE GUYS. They have their fans, but I just have "X-Pac Heat" for them. I totally hate these guys and their gimmick, and how they constantly just seem to keep popping up in various books. Their first run died after SIX ISSUES!!! SIX!!! Why on Earth does this concept get chance after chance to succeed when they failed that hard immediately?!?!

This duo was initially a Steve Ditko creation. The idea behind Hawk & Dove was that they were brothers with differing opinions on fighting and violence in general, named for two different political opinions- Hawk was conservative, aggressive, strong and favored swift, violent action. Dove was liberal, peaceful, sensitive and considerate, favoring passive responses and communication over brawling. However, the Spidey-creator bailed right away over arguments on how to write the pair with fellow creator Steve Skeates. The idea Ditko WANTED to present was that the two of them both have valuable things to offer, as well as having weaknesses. The implication being that the world needed hawks AND doves to succeed. But it wasn't to be; Skeates felt that Ditko was writing Don "Dove" Hall as a wimpy pussy who couldn't decide on anything, and Ditko felt that Skeates was showing Hank "Hawk" Hall as a buffoonish moron who didn't think about anything. Basically, both writers thought the other was reflecting too many of their own biases (Ditko was an Objectivist who favored strong action, for example), resulting in the "opposite" brother being written as if they were an ineffectual idiot who no right-thinking reader would ever side with.

Most writers can't help but show bias to their own alignment, and since most comic book writers are heavily-skewed to the left, which typically sides with Dove in the latter half of the 20th century to today... you get the idea- Hawk is pretty typically always written as a brutish lout these days. Hawk and Dove was a BIG failure, dying after six issues. They popped up in the Teen Titans book a few times, before Don was killed in the Crisis on Infinite Earths. More info on each of them below.

The History of Hawk & Dove:
-Hawk & Dove are Hank & Don Hall, brothers with differing opinions on the use of violence. Hawk was empowered by a Lord of Chaos, while Dove was given powers by a Lord of Order (these were normally enemies, but these two had fallen in love)- both were expected to work together to solve crises. In their first appearance, they prevented the assassination of their father- a judge whose opinions struck a balance between the two Hall boys. However, their own book's cancellation led to them getting only minor spots here and there- six issues in the Teen Titans book in 1970, and then an appearance with Batman ELEVEN YEARS LATER (which was disregarded as out-of-continuity, owing to the fact that it showed the Halls as having aged since the 1960s, when they were contemporaries of the Teen Titans). In their next appearance, Dove was killed during the final issues of Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Dove's death would lead to a bit of a push for the concept once more, as a revival soon sprung up in 1986- Hawk & Dove, by Karl & Barbara Kesel, after a brief Titans Spotlight made to reignite interest in Hawk. The Kesels would write a book that was well-thought-of, but never sold particularly well- the new Dove was a sexy girl (Dawn Granger) instead of a skinny male, which of course was a MUCH better idea (pacifism being seen as a very wimpy trait in a male). The Kesels were joined by an up & coming artist named Rob Liefeld, and the mini-series lasted a while, eschewing the political leanings of the pair's original stories, and focusing more on generic superheroics, such as fighting the villainous Kestrel (an agent of other Lords of Chaos). An ongoing series started up in 1989, being cancelled 28 issues later in 1991. The book had a strong start, but sales would eventually falter- this would be the longest run the duo would ever get.

Hawk & Dove Are Gone:
-In 1991, with Hawk & Dove being cancelled, Hawk was used for a major story arc. Fans had figured out that the time-travelling villain of Armageddon 2001, their line-wide crossover, was going to be Captain Atom, and so they rapidly changed plans- Hawk was put in his place and did the deed instead. The villainous Monarch travelled back in time, murdered Dove in front of Hawk, and was himself murdered- Hawk going mad and replacing Monarch. He would continue on in this form, fighting Captain Atom mostly, but then being central to Zero Hour (one of DC's attempts at fixing their f'd up Post-Crisis continuity), where he changed his name to Extant and executed three members of the Justice Society of America- Dr. Mid-Nite, Hourman and The Atom. Years and years later, in the pages of JSA, Geoff Johns had Al "Atom-Smasher" Rothstein team up with Metron to chase Extant (who was taking over the world due to time-travel shenanigans again) back in time, and Atom-Smasher overpowered the villain and stole his Time Travel Macguffin, swapping out Extant for Smasher's dead mother on a doomed airplane. This killed Extant, avenging Al's godfather (The Atom) and saving his mother, at the cost of making him a killer- something that would have many repercussions in that book.

A New Hawk & Dove:
-1997 saw a 5-issue Hawk & Dove mini-series come out. This pair was unrelated to Order & Chaos, simply being a "military brat" and "slacker dude" who gained wings link due to medical experiments they received as children. These two never have much of an effect on things, only appearing in cameos thereafter.

The third incarnation of the "Hawk & Dove" team uses a male Dove again, but it's a bit more clever, in that instead of being a peaceful, thin boy in a pastel blue set of tights, it's a deliberately wimpy guy with a brassy, female Hawk. A more fun contrast, in any case. The book, while silly and guaranteed a quick death, was at least a Limited Series (thus didn't requrie cancellation) and was unrelated to the prior characters, thus not adding unnecessary baggage. It's just an easily-ignored book.

This Hawk & Dove were formed by genetic experiments when they were children. Meeting up at a rock concert (Willy Wolverman is one of The Doves- the band playing), they end up learning how to sprout wings from their backs, and face off against a government conspiracy. They're hunted by the Suicide Squad, but escape with the help of Vigilante, Vixen and Hawk's father. The Colonel involved in their creation, who'd intended to use them as assassins (rock guitarists being famous for their skill with assassination, I guess), was uncovered and arrested by Amanda Waller, who offered Hawk & Dove jobs. Hawk accepted, but Dove refused to work for "The Man" and flew off, kissing Hawk as he left.

The group's only other appearance was in the background of a Titans Secret Files issue, where they play their music at a party meant to assemble a new "Titans West" team. They don't even say anything. The group is thus totally forgotten, with neither the returned Hawk I, Hawk II, or Dove II ever mentioning them, as far as I can tell.

The Return of Hawk & Dove:
-In a VERY complicated story arc, Dawn Granger returned in the pages of JSA, being revealed as the mother of Hector "Doctor Fate" Hall, as a result of Extant resurrecting her and forcing himself upon her, because the "Child of Order & Chaos" was destined to become extremely powerful. The ruse was eventually revealed when Hector undid a magical glamor that had disguised Dawn as his own wife, Lyta Hall, who would later be found... just as the writer (Geoff Johns) got bored of that whole story arc and wrote them out. The villain Mordru was revealed to have been the reason Hank went insane in the first place, in order to orchestrate this whole mess (because he wanted Dr. Fate's powers for himself).

Dove II was thus a thing again, and her new "Hawk" was her estranged Suddenly-Introduced Sibling, Holly Granger. This Hawk & Dove allied with the new Teen Titans briefly, but were very minor characters. During Blackest Night, Holly was murdered by a resurrected Hank Hall (interestingly, Don "Dove" Hall was the only hero who couldn't be turned into a super-zombie, as he was "At Peace" and rejected the Black Lantern Ring). However, Dawn was able to resist dying herself, as her peace-based Dove powers (based upon the "White Light of Creation") could overwhelm the necromantic magic, and she disintegrated many undead former Titans. In the aftermath of the event, Hank Hall is included among the truly resurrected heroes.

This actually leads to a minor re-push of Hawk & Dove, as they appear in Gail Simone's Birds of Prey book. However, and I know this because I OWN that entire run, they NEVER DID ANYTHING, essentially being pointless background characters that I would bet money were hoisted upon Simone. Hank being the only male member of the BoP is never really touched on, and he just kind of hung around as their "muscle". Dove actually hooks up with the reanimated Deadman, but he re-dies at the end of Brightest Day, breaking her heart.

Hawk & Dove was actually chosen as one of the infamous "New 52" titles that DC offered up as part of their line-wide revamp of continuity, which of coursed doomed it to instant failure, as when you release FIFTY-TWO #1s AT THE SAME TIME, it spreads out potential new readers of any particular issue, particularly if the two are characters who have never been popular in the first place. Hawk & Dove are Hank & Dawn once more... and of course only last eight issues before being cancelled, because DC are idiots. The characters are, once more, largely un-used.

Hawk & Dove As A Whole:
-The team as "Generic Super-Heroes" is actually somewhat solid- one is strong, tough & aggressive; the other agile, charismatic and peaceful. And their COSTUMES are actually really cool (the "powder blue & white" look, combined with platinum hair, is such a distinctive, excellent look that Disney accidentally made more money that anyone ever just by making a high-profile character with the same traits). The problem is... you just can't sell a book based off of a heroic duo who was never popular in the first place. This pairing has had something like four or five legitimate chances to "get over" and become popular, and the closest they ever came was the Kesel series, which is where 90% of the characters' fanbase comes from ("Hey Jab, why are you mocking Hawk & Dove? The Kesel series was really good!"), and even THAT book crapped out before it hit thirty issues!

Honestly, the team has a RIDICULOUSLY complicated history (with Hank turning into a super-villain for a decade of continuity... but one who only showed up a couple of times, Dawn dying twice, multiple resurrections, and more) and is such a minor act that I wonder why DC still bothers. Their one-off in Justice League Unlimited was pretty funny (with Fred Savage & Jason Hervey playing the brothers, in a "casting gag" based off of their roles as brothers in The Wonder Years), but again went nowhere. It's just... you need more than to look cool and have a somewhat-neat concept to succeed. They've been roped in with the Justice Society, Teen Titans, the whole Brightest Day thing, Birds of Prey, and more- it ain't gonna happen.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest!)

Post by Ken » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:06 am

When I first heard of Hawk and Dove, I knew nothing about them save for their names. It was something like "Hank (Hawk) Hall is doing XYZ and Don (Dove) Hall is doing PDQ"

And to my 9 year old mind, I was thinking they were related to Hawkman and Hawkgirl, because 1) the bird theme and b) the surname Hall.

Boy was I wrong. But still, the surname Hall being reused for Hawk & Dove just seemed weird.
...

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Hawk (Hank Hall)

Post by Jabroniville » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:35 pm

Image
Image
Image

HAWK I (Hank Hall, aka Monarch, Extant)
Created By:
Steve Ditko & Steve Skeates
First Appearance: Showcase #75 (June 1968)
Role: Gun-Crazy Conservative, Warmonger, Powerhouse
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, Hawk & Dove
PL 9 (131)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 8 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 2 (+6)
Athletics 3 (+11)
Deception 2 (+5)
Expertise (Gun-Crazy Conservative) 6 (+6)
Intimidation 7 (+10)
Perception 2 (+3)
Vehicles 2 (+4)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Chokehold, Damaging Escape, Daze (Intimidation), Diehard, Extraordinary Effort, Fascinate (Intimidation), Fast Grab, Fearless, Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Grab, Improved Hold, Improved Smash, Improvised Weapon, Last Stand, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 5, Seize Initiative, Startle, Takedown

Powers:
"Powerhouse"
Impervious Toughness 3 [3]
Leaping 1 (15 feet) [1]
Power Lifting 1 (12 tons) [1]
Regeneration 4 [4]
Senses 1 (Danger Sense) [1]

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +8, Fortitude +9, Will +6

Complications:
Motivation (Justice)
Relationship/Rivalry (Don Hall, aka "Dove")- Hawk & Dove were combative brothers. Don is a peace-loving liberal, whereas Hank is a pro-active, volatile conservative. They loved each other dearly, but they bickered constantly.
Normal Identity (Hank Hall)- Without saying the word "Hawk" and transforming, Hank's stats are ST 2, STA 3, and AGI 2.
Responsibility (Avatar of Chaos)
Enemy (Kestrel)

Total: Abilities: 72 / Skills: 24--12 / Advantages: 25 / Powers: 10 / Defenses: 12 (131)

-Oh, Hank Hall. Poor, poor Hank Hall. Initially a Steve Ditko creation, the creator bailed right away over arguments on how to write the pair of Hawk & Dove with fellow creator Steve Skeates. Skeates sided with Dove, while Ditko sided with Hawk- both writers injected many of their own biases into things. Hawk was initially the "correct" one, but Skeates would make Hawk into a bit of a buffoon, which would stick to the character permanently. This would often be handled with a bit of humor, and Hank WAS given some characterization, at least. When Don was killed during the Crisis, Hank got a new "Dove" in the pretty, platinum blonde Dawn Granger, and the two paired up for 4-5 years, before disaster struck.

-Dawn was killed by the supervillain Monarch, and Hank's mind snapped. He killed the villain, then took his uniform, realizing that the villain wore HIS FACE. He ends up replacing him and assaulting various DC characters. The "Monarch" push failed (he mainly fought Captain Atom, who was SUPPOSED to have been turned into Monarch, but fans guessed it too easily), and he used the latent powers Dove infused him with, and was transformed into Extant- a more Generic Super-Villain their never was. Extant did some time stuff, teamed up with Hal "Parallax" Jordan, and nearly destroyed the world (and he killed three Golden Age JSA members- The Atom, Hourman & Dr. Mid-Nite). Much later, using the Worlogog (ugh- what a stupid name) to travel through time, he resurrected Dove, and caused her to birth the next Doctor Fate- a resurrected Hector Hall. However, the JSA were able to stop him- Atom-Smasher (godson of the original Atom) and Metron (whose Mobius Chair could chase Extant through time) coralled him, with Atom-Smasher beating his ass and swapping Extant into the seat occupied by his mother on a doomed airline in the past- an act that saved Atom-Smasher's mother, and killed Extant.

-Fans, always annoyed at the Hawk/Monarch/Extant thing, finally got a bone thrown to them as Metron then chooses to erase Extant's "miserable timeline", which makes it so that Captain Atom had been the villain all along. This redeems Hawk, at which point he was resurrected as one of the many revived heroes at the end of Blackest Night. Teaming back up with Dawn, he grows increasingly violent and brutish before fully redeeming himself in Brightest Day (the two also take up background space in Birds of Prey at this time).

-Hawk is a pretty decent front-line fighter, using super-strength. He's a PL 9 melee fighter who's a Spider-Man-strong Powerhouse with very few Skills- marking him as a bull-headed power-fighter. This makes him a pretty tough customer, though limited by his anger. Hawk & Dove are both pretty easy to stat Advantage-wise, as they both practically EMBODY offensive vs. defensive tactics in combat. Hawk is expected to use All-Out Attack or Power Attack pretty much all the time.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Jack of Spades » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:34 pm

Hawk and Dove are my Doom Patrol, I suppose. I love the idea of what they could be, showcasing opposite viewpoints and how they both need the other to be balanced – something I think is particularly relevant to our public discourse at this time. But they've never been done well. I keep hoping. The Titans TV series managed to disappoint me yet again, with Dove being just an auxiliary to Hawk's angst.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by FuzzyBoots » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:47 pm

FWIW, I think the most significant impact Hawk and Dove have had on comics was inspiring the rather hilarious pair of PS238 kindergarten superheroes of USA Patriot Act and American Eagle who embody the right and left wings of the political structure in the most hamfisted (but scarily accurate depiction of children being fed political dogma and parroting it) ways.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by catsi563 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:11 pm

Jack of Spades wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:34 pm
Hawk and Dove are my Doom Patrol, I suppose. I love the idea of what they could be, showcasing opposite viewpoints and how they both need the other to be balanced – something I think is particularly relevant to our public discourse at this time. But they've never been done well. I keep hoping. The Titans TV series managed to disappoint me yet again, with Dove being just an auxiliary to Hawk's angst.
Yeah im the same I enjoyed Hawk and Dove the potential the pair had and the way they were supposed to work as a balanced pair.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Tattooedman » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:14 pm

The JL cartoon did a pretty good take on Hawk & Dove imo.

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