The ongoing fall of Venezuela

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Batgirl III
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Batgirl III » Tue May 15, 2018 3:19 am

Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.em

This is known as “bad luck.”
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Jabroniville
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Jabroniville » Fri May 18, 2018 7:08 am

Was it capitalism or democracy said to be the "Worst System Ever... except for all the other ones". Pretty succinctly puts it in perspective.

Though of course... most socialist states spend years getting absolutely WRECKED by capitalist ones in a fairly deliberate manner, and there's tons of failed CAPITALIST states, too (Cuba's not too great, but certainly doing better than Haiti or Jamaica).

I'm no socialist, mind you. I just believe in dirty things like socialized medicine and gun control :P. I think the "Government controlling everything" just leads to colossal screw-ups- never mind the "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" thing, but the inherent function of government is to do dumb things, whereas the inherent function of a fully-capitalist system is to do EVIL things. A balance of both is necessary, because government's stupidity is a good counterbalance to big business's desire to bleed everything dry. Sweet, sweet entropy is where it's at.

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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Woodclaw » Fri May 18, 2018 2:25 pm

Jabroniville wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 7:08 am
Was it capitalism or democracy said to be the "Worst System Ever... except for all the other ones". Pretty succinctly puts it in perspective.

Though of course... most socialist states spend years getting absolutely WRECKED by capitalist ones in a fairly deliberate manner, and there's tons of failed CAPITALIST states, too (Cuba's not too great, but certainly doing better than Haiti or Jamaica).

I'm no socialist, mind you. I just believe in dirty things like socialized medicine and gun control :P. I think the "Government controlling everything" just leads to colossal screw-ups- never mind the "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" thing, but the inherent function of government is to do dumb things, whereas the inherent function of a fully-capitalist system is to do EVIL things. A balance of both is necessary, because government's stupidity is a good counterbalance to big business's desire to bleed everything dry. Sweet, sweet entropy is where it's at.
"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." (Winston Churchill speech in House of Commons, November 11th, 1947)
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Batgirl III
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Batgirl III » Fri May 18, 2018 3:04 pm

I'm no socialist, mind you. I just believe in dirty things like socialized medicine and gun control.
Although I oppose (strongly) both of these ideas, there’s a world of difference between a republican democracy with some centralized social programs (or even a few wholly state-run sectors of the economy) and full-bore socialism.
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BriarThrone
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by BriarThrone » Fri May 18, 2018 4:56 pm

Jabroniville wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 7:08 am
Though of course... most socialist states spend years getting absolutely WRECKED by capitalist ones in a fairly deliberate manner, and there's tons of failed CAPITALIST states, too (Cuba's not too great, but certainly doing better than Haiti or Jamaica).
The thing about socialism and communism is that they inherently fail in some pretty abstract ways that can be attributed to the existence of capitalism somewhere else. In order to keep justifying a collectivist economic system and their own leadership, the leaders start blaming any country more prosperous than them. This creates hostility. Eventually, there is often real interference, because another country having a government that is growing increasingly hostile because of the needs of their own rhetoric is an uncomfortable situation and you want to prevent craziness.
Jabroniville wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 7:08 am
I'm no socialist, mind you. I just believe in dirty things like socialized medicine and gun control :P. I think the "Government controlling everything" just leads to colossal screw-ups- never mind the "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" thing, but the inherent function of government is to do dumb things, whereas the inherent function of a fully-capitalist system is to do EVIL things. A balance of both is necessary, because government's stupidity is a good counterbalance to big business's desire to bleed everything dry. Sweet, sweet entropy is where it's at.
The inherent function of a capitalist system is to allow people to exchange a thing for another thing that they need more, resulting in two sides that are better off than they were before. Businesses have a hard time being evil without the assistance of government.

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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Ken » Fri May 18, 2018 8:10 pm

I believe in gun control. One should use both hands so the recoil doesn't knock you on your ass.
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Batgirl III
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Batgirl III » Fri May 18, 2018 8:45 pm

Ken wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 8:10 pm
I believe in gun control. One should use both hands so the recoil doesn't knock you on your ass.
Clearly you need better footwork. 😉
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Batgirl III » Sat May 19, 2018 3:14 pm

Getting the CLAP in Venezuela, means waiting in line for hours only to probably walk away empty handed or dealing with the corrupt and illegal black market. Either way, even if you do get the “free” food the government promised you, the box probably won’t actually contain what they promised.

I know that memes are not a substitute for a reasoned and logical argument, but this meme seems to hold a lot of truth:

Image
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BriarThrone
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by BriarThrone » Sat May 19, 2018 5:00 pm

Memes are ideas. Sometimes an idea expressed succinctly is the best argument. Socialist countries have to work hard to make sure there's enough bread to go around, and forget luxury items like fruits, cheese, etc. They are notoriously unsuccessful at providing enough bread. That's why the terms "bread line" and "food riot" are so closely associated. Cannibalism becomes a problem as people are desperate to fill their bellies.

Meanwhile, in countries that have even a semblance of a capitalist economy left, the lower class has an obesity problem.

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Batgirl III
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Batgirl III » Sat May 19, 2018 5:17 pm

Memes, like slogans, symbols, and a pithy quote aren’t substitutes for a reasoned argument and a rational explanation of an idea, but they can be a good supplement to them.

“No taxation without representation!” was pretty much the 1775 equivalent of an Internet meme. It was a pithy summary of the complexities of Smith, Locke, and Paine in just four words with a nice touch of alliteration.

Thomas Paine’s Common Sense is a much better argument in favor of American independence, but the slogan is great marketing.
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Gilliam
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Gilliam » Mon May 21, 2018 9:46 am

Another take on the situation in Venezuela

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Batgirl III
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Batgirl III » Mon May 21, 2018 6:05 pm

Gilliam wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 9:46 am
Another take on the situation in Venezuela
Nice to see the Walter Duranty School of Journalism still has students working in the industry today.
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Gilliam
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Gilliam » Mon May 21, 2018 6:35 pm

Batgirl III wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 6:05 pm
Gilliam wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 9:46 am
Another take on the situation in Venezuela
Nice to see the Walter Duranty School of Journalism still has students working in the industry today.
Out of curiosity what was the point of your comment?

And yes I have now done a google search on Walter Duranty but still curious.

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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Batgirl III » Mon May 21, 2018 6:43 pm

Walter Duranty is infamous for “reporting” lies and propaganda on behalf of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. His most egregious episode would be his repeated denials of the Holodomor, the intentional genocide-by-famine that the Communist Party of Ukraine inflicted upon their own people... But his mendacity was hardly limited to just covering up democide.

The article you linked to is a fine example of Duranty-like water carrying.
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Gilliam
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Gilliam » Mon May 21, 2018 7:13 pm

Fair enough, personally what I took from the article was corruption is corruption no matter what political system or beliefs you follow.

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