The ongoing fall of Venezuela

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Ares
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The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Ares » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:54 pm

So, I'll be the first to admit that I don't follow international news as strongly as I should. Most of my news I get from online sources like the Phil Defranco show or from 60 Minutes, since they're some of the few news sources I actually find fairly reliable.

So I completely missed the cluster f*** that was the state of Venezuela. I mean . . . my God but the state of that country is heartbreaking and terrifying. Its hard to imagine a better modern example of how a corrupt government can lead to the suffering of its people and the collapse of a nation.

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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Ken » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:52 am

Yeah, the situation in Venezuela doesn't get a lot of news coverage, at least not here in the U.S.

Part of it is that legacy media is generally pro-socialism, so running stories about another failed socialist state* isn't high on their priorities.

And part of the problem is that U.S. news generally doesn't give a **** about places that aren't the U.S. Places somehow attached to American interests will get some coverage, but mostly it's very Americentric. Even most of the non-legacy news outlets are still focused on the U.S. since they are trying to be an alternate point of view to the legacy media.


* - Yes I used the phrase failed socialist state as if there is any other kind. The other kind is the not yet failed socialist state.
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BriarThrone
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by BriarThrone » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:55 pm

Of course, the apologists will say "But Venezuela isn't a socialist state! It's still built on private property!" This is... sorta true, but built on cherry-picked facts that, when viewed through the right lens, can suggest the desired conclusion. It completely ignores the fact that Western socialists were holding up Venezuela as a wonderful socialist ideal while the oil money was there. It completely ignores the fact that the collapse is a result of capital flight that occurred as a direct result of escalating socialism, as the Venezuela government seized the assets of foreign private companies in an effort to stay afloat.

It's a tragedy that villains in our society are desperate to avoid learning from.

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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Batgirl III » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:36 am

“They’ve got the usual Socialist disease —they’ve run out of other people's money.” -The Right Honourable, The Baroness Thatcher (10 October 1975)

To date, no state based on Marxist principles, has lasted longer than seventy years before total collapse. The People’s Republic of China might be able to pull it off – they’re 69 years old as I type this – but I don’t expect them to last more than a century.

Meanwhile, the mercantile republic of Holland is 437 years young, enjoys the 13th highest GDP per capita on the planet, a 0.924 HDI score, a pleasant climate, legal prostitution, legal marijuana, and legal gay marriage. If only they’d let me keep my guns, I’d emigrate tomorrow!
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by greycrusader » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:20 am

Careful Batgirl-with the above mentioned social liberalism, AND the Netherlands' mandatory health insurance (with no refusals for pre-existing conditions, government covered long-term care-shades of OBAMACARE!), you'll have to turn in your conservative card.

All my best.


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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Batgirl III » Mon May 14, 2018 3:46 pm

Ctrl+F “Socialism,” and no results found. Weird how that seems to happen in every news article about Venezuela.
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BriarThrone
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by BriarThrone » Mon May 14, 2018 5:07 pm

Batgirl III wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:46 pm
Ctrl+F “Socialism,” and no results found. Weird how that seems to happen in every news article about Venezuela.
Along with the very interesting aspect of so few news articles about Venezuela in the first place. There's a conspucuous absence of discussion of the failure of socialism. Again.

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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Batgirl III » Mon May 14, 2018 5:48 pm

And when it is mentioned, there’s inevitably the chorus of “It wasn’t real socialism!”

Every. Single. Time.
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by BriarThrone » Mon May 14, 2018 6:15 pm

Batgirl III wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:48 pm
And when it is mentioned, there’s inevitably the chorus of “It wasn’t real socialism!”

Every. Single. Time.
I will concede that it's technically true, because socialism had not been fully implememted yet, Venezuela's woes can be traced back directly to its increasingly socialist policies.

It's like socialism is a building project. When you start to build it, it immediately starts wobbling dangerously and emitting toxic waste, but then, at about 40% complete, it inevitably burns down, falls over, then sinks into the swamp... and lunatic ideologues will still claim that the finished building will be spectacular someday.

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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Batgirl III » Mon May 14, 2018 6:35 pm

The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela has been a fully socialist state since the adoption of the Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela in 1999.

Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela (formerly known as Movimiento Quinta República) is the only political party with any control in government. Almost the entire economy (and all the major industries) were seized by the state under Chávez and are centrally run.

It’s literally the textbook definition of socialism: “a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.”

But, of course, it collapsed. A nation with the largest proven oil reserves in the world; a 365 day growing season, with rich alluvial soil and abundant rainfall; 2,800 km of tropical beaches on the Carribean Sea; not to mention significant deposits of gold, silver, iron ore, and natural gas... And it’s people are starving to death.

But, hey, maybe next time it’ll work...
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Batgirl III » Mon May 14, 2018 6:37 pm

A country is not a socialist country simply because it has a socialist party that does well in elections or a few socialized government policies. In order for me to consider a country to be socialist it needs to self-identify as socialist _or_ have a signifigantly lengthy period of rule by a governing socialist party that has implemented a socialist economy. To wit:

Four current countires self-identify as Marxist-Leninist states:
• People's Republic of China
• Republic of Cuba
• Laos People's Democratic Republic
• Socialist Republic of Vietnam

Eight current countries self-identify as socialist:
• People's Republic of Bangladesh
• Co-operative Republic of Guyana
• Republic of India
• Democratic People's Republic of Korea
• Federal Democratic Republic of Nepal
• Portuguese Republic
• Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka
• United Republic of Tanzania

Thirteen current countries have multi-party systems but have governing socialist parties and socialist economies:
• Republic of Angola
• Plurinational State of Bolivia
• République du Congo
• Republic of Ecuador
• República de El Salvador
• Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia
• República da Guiné-Bissau
• Hellenic Republic (colloqiually known as Greece)
• Republic of Mozambique
• Republic of Nicaragua
• Oriental Republic of Uruguay
• Bolivaran Republic of Venezuela

Twenty-nine former countries had self-declared Marxist-Leninist or socialist governments, but have collapsed and no longer exist:
• Democratic Republic of Afghanistan
• People's Socialist Republic of Albania
• People's Democratic Republic of Algeria
• People's Republic of Benin
• People's Republic of Bulgaria
• Socialist Republic of the Union of Burma
• Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic
• People's Republic of Kampuchea (colloqiually known as Cambodia)
• Republic of Cape Verde
• Czechoslovak Socialist Republic
• Arab Republic of Egypt
• German Democratic Republic
• German Reich / Großdeutsches Reich (colloqiually known as Nazi Germany)
• People's Revolutionary Government of Grenada
• Hungarian People's Republic
• Iraqi Republic / Ba'athist Iraq
• Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
• Democratic Republic of Madagascar
• Mongolian People's Republic
• Polish People's Republic
• Republic of Seychelles
• Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (colloqiually known as Russia)
• Socialist Republic of Romania
• Somali Democratic Republic
• Democratic Republic of the Sudan
• Syrian Arab Republic
• Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic
• People's Democratic Republic of Yemen
• Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

These places range from authoritarian hellholes to authoritarian shitholes. No thanks.
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by BriarThrone » Mon May 14, 2018 7:08 pm

The "Not Real Socialism" argument in the case of Venezuela is rooted in the (true) argument that private companies and private investors still exist in Venezuela. Not a bad argument, as far as it goes. It's just that the Venezuela government was taking steps to crush or seize the assets of private companies, which, naturally, responded by fleeing or demanding restitution in international court. The exodus of resources from Venezuela caused scarcity and skyrocketing prices. The Venezuelan government responded with price controls and aggressive quantitative easing, resulting in empty shelves, inflation, and the military just seizing what they want. The presence of private investors makes the "Not Real Socialism" thing true, but since private investors were the only thing keeping the state and its oil-welfare system afloat for a while, it doesn't have to be false to be a shit argument.

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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by Batgirl III » Mon May 14, 2018 9:01 pm

Yeah, funny thing about try to take other people’s honestly acquired property by force is that they tend not to like it...

“We need to do it again, but harder!” is the chorus the socialists sing to themselves while they sing the song about “It wasn’t real socialism!” to the rest of us.

If only they’d seized the oil industry in one go instead of piece by piece; if Chávez had only built those gulags faster; if Maduro had only shot a few more hoarders, wreckers, and kulak saboteurs... Next time, comrade, we will get it right!
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Re: The ongoing fall of Venezuela

Post by BriarThrone » Mon May 14, 2018 9:26 pm

Batgirl III wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:01 pm
Yeah, funny thing about try to take other people’s honestly acquired property by force is that they tend not to like it...

“We need to do it again, but harder!” is the chorus the socialists sing to themselves while they sing the song about “It wasn’t real socialism!” to the rest of us.

If only they’d seized the oil industry in one go instead of piece by piece; if Chávez had only built those gulags faster; if Maduro had only shot a few more hoarders, wreckers, and kulak saboteurs... Next time, comrade, we will get it right!
Sometimes I do wonder if these enthusiasts would get a better perspective on the problem from a helicopter...

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