What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Batgirl III
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:05 pm

Shazam! The Power of Hope, by Ross and Dini, is an amazingly well done comic. All the books in that little mini line of theirs are phenomenal. If I were given carte blanche to dictate how DC Comics writers have to write their characters then the Ross and Dini books would be the “Bible” everyone else had to follow.

Batman: War on Crime is one of the greatest examples of ‘getting it’ when it comes to the “Bruce Wayne is the mask!”/“Batman is the mask!” debate that often crops up around my second-favorite chiropteran-themed superhero. Sink and Ross make it clear that both of the personae of “the Batman” and “Bruce Wayne, Billionaire Playboy” are masks that the real Bruce Wayne wears in order to fight his war on crime. It also explains that yes, he does use his money and his influence to do more than buy themed boomerangs and punch people.

Superman: Peace on Earth is a great example of showing just how much one man can do to change the world. But also showing that one man — even a super man — cannot be responsible for everything.

Wonder Woman: Spirit of Truth is one of the best uses of Diana as an ambassador, a heroine, and a warrior in balance that I’ve seen ever. It also has her kicking the shit out of some Ṭālibān, so that’s fun.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Jabroniville » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:22 pm

Any book by Dale Eagleshsn, Co-Creator of My Beloved Cyclone, is a must read. Even that lame Sinestro one. He’s so far beyond every other artists in the medium it’s embarrassing. Especially in the “Indie Comix” era of art.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 pm

Jabroniville wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:22 pm
Any book by Dale Eagleshsn, Co-Creator of My Beloved Cyclone, is a must read. Even that lame Sinestro one. He’s so far beyond every other artists in the medium it’s embarrassing. Especially in the “Indie Comix” era of art.
He's a fantastic artist, no question, but something about that picture is just off.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:29 pm

Ares wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 pm
Jabroniville wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:22 pm
Any book by Dale Eagleshsn, Co-Creator of My Beloved Cyclone, is a must read. Even that lame Sinestro one. He’s so far beyond every other artists in the medium it’s embarrassing. Especially in the “Indie Comix” era of art.
He's a fantastic artist, no question, but something about that picture is just off.
No motion lines. It looks like they're standing still.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:44 pm

It's also clear that unlike the classic outfit, the Nu-Shazam outfit needs certain artists to make it look somewhat good. Dale's art would be fantastic for the classic Capt. Marvel and Marvel Family, but the overall "busy" design and lightning bolt just looks ugly and stretched out.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Jabroniville » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:51 am

Batgirl III wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:29 pm
Ares wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 pm
Jabroniville wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:22 pm
Any book by Dale Eagleshsn, Co-Creator of My Beloved Cyclone, is a must read. Even that lame Sinestro one. He’s so far beyond every other artists in the medium it’s embarrassing. Especially in the “Indie Comix” era of art.
He's a fantastic artist, no question, but something about that picture is just off.
No motion lines. It looks like they're standing still.
Eaglesham’S art IS always kinda like that. More “Norman Rockwell” than a standard comic book. Alex Ross, naturally, is a similar way.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Woodclaw » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:52 am

Ares wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:44 pm
It's also clear that unlike the classic outfit, the Nu-Shazam outfit needs certain artists to make it look somewhat good. Dale's art would be fantastic for the classic Capt. Marvel and Marvel Family, but the overall "busy" design and lightning bolt just looks ugly and stretched out.
In my opinion the Nu-Shazam outfit did two things right: the hood and the energy from the bolt.
Admitedly the hood is a bit of a... fetish of mine. It's one of those details that I appreciate on most characters. In this particular case I like the fact that it helps differentiate Cap's silhouette from Superman's (and even more Mary's from Supergirl's) since they decided to go with a longer cape. The energy bolt produce a much "busier", but it's also a nice call-back to the Marvels' power source. It would be nice to use it as a visual cue of how strong they are.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:45 pm

Woodclaw wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:52 am
Ares wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:44 pm
It's also clear that unlike the classic outfit, the Nu-Shazam outfit needs certain artists to make it look somewhat good. Dale's art would be fantastic for the classic Capt. Marvel and Marvel Family, but the overall "busy" design and lightning bolt just looks ugly and stretched out.
In my opinion the Nu-Shazam outfit did two things right: the hood and the energy from the bolt.
Admitedly the hood is a bit of a... fetish of mine. It's one of those details that I appreciate on most characters. In this particular case I like the fact that it helps differentiate Cap's silhouette from Superman's (and even more Mary's from Supergirl's) since they decided to go with a longer cape. The energy bolt produce a much "busier", but it's also a nice call-back to the Marvels' power source. It would be nice to use it as a visual cue of how strong they are.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree here. To me, the Marvel Family's classic capes were just perfect, had a unique design and were recognizable for the different look they had, being these shorter, off the shoulder numbers.The hood is especially wasted on Cap because he NEVER WEARS IT. Since 2011, Nu-Shazam has worn the hood a grand total of TWO TIMES, once when he first got his powers, a second time when he decided to use his new Sorcerer powers to create a table tennis table in the Watchtower.

Likewise, the classic Shazam bolt worked better as a simple golden lightning symbol on the chest. Now to be fair, I did like it in JUSTICE! whenever Cap would suddenly have the golden bits of his uniform glow and emit lightning, but to me, that was visual cue that Cap was tapping more heavily into the Power of Zeus and going "all out", much like how having lightning crackling around his fist is an indicator that he's doing more than using his normal strength levels. Having this lightning shaped hole in his chest constantly leaking lightning just looks bad to me, especially when they made it blue, contrasting the rest of the red, white and gold outfit.

Now, like you I do like hooded robes and capes/cloaks, and I do think the crackling lightning effect has its place, but the Nu-52 version of the outfit is just wasted on Cap, and would work better on someone who's suppose to be more of a Dr. Fate/Dr. Strange type spellcaster/blaster.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Woodclaw » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:33 pm

Ares wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:45 pm
We're just going to have to agree to disagree here. To me, the Marvel Family's classic capes were just perfect, had a unique design and were recognizable for the different look they had, being these shorter, off the shoulder numbers.The hood is especially wasted on Cap because he NEVER WEARS IT. Since 2011, Nu-Shazam has worn the hood a grand total of TWO TIMES, once when he first got his powers, a second time when he decided to use his new Sorcerer powers to create a table tennis table in the Watchtower.
As I said before I think that the hood was a nice idea because of the longer cape design, if they stuck with the classic one I would have called it overkill.
Ares wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:45 pm
Likewise, the classic Shazam bolt worked better as a simple golden lightning symbol on the chest. Now to be fair, I did like it in JUSTICE! whenever Cap would suddenly have the golden bits of his uniform glow and emit lightning, but to me, that was visual cue that Cap was tapping more heavily into the Power of Zeus and going "all out", much like how having lightning crackling around his fist is an indicator that he's doing more than using his normal strength levels. Having this lightning shaped hole in his chest constantly leaking lightning just looks bad to me, especially when they made it blue, contrasting the rest of the red, white and gold outfit.
I can see what you mean when you talk about a hole, but at the same time I think that the simple golden bolt doesn't do the trick for me. Using it as a visual cue is a good idea, but maybe it should be a little more consistent.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by L-Space » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:08 pm

I always thought the half cape gave Captain Marvel a nice swashbuckler look, like a fun-loving adventurer.

As for the picture, not the greatest, but at least we're getting the Marvel Family smiling and having fun.

Power of Hope was good and so was First Thunder. I've also heard that The Power of Shazam! by Jeff Ordway was good, but I haven't read that one personally.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:56 pm

So over on RPG.net, Kreuzritter recently completed a Where I Read thread, namely "Where I Read "The Death and Return of Superman".

First and foremost, give it a read, it's very entertaining.

Secondly, and this more personal to me, it makes me wish Roger Stern had gotten a chance to write Captain Marvel in a larger capacity. Stern is one of my favorite under-rated writers, someone who put out consistently good work and really seemed to get the concept that being a writer of a character like Superman meant you were a caretaker of a character that millions, if not billions, of people love and admire. The goal should be to write consistent, good stories about that character, rather than trying to leave your mark on them, the way modern creators seem to want to define their run on a character as being "Where I did THIS to the character", such as "Where I made Thor a Woman" or "Where I made Capt. America a Nazi". Stern seems to have a real reverence for the characters he champions.

He also mentioned that, in a crossover series called "Panic in the Sky", that Captain Marvel was the character he enjoyed writing the most, stating that he felt Cap was nearly as legendary and important to comics as Superman. The fact that he wrote Cap as actually being intelligent, noble and competent didn't hurt things. Heck, in Death and Return of Superman, Stern wrote an issue where the Cyborg Superman uses computer trickery to try and convince the most powerful heroes to go off planet to deal with some threat. The only hero that suspected something was up and was trying to get everyone to not go off half-cocked? Captain Marvel.

*sigh* Could have had Roger Stern or Karl Kesel write Cap, but nope.

Anyway.

Thirdly, and more relevant to this thread, is how the story seemed to work and how much more, well, "solid" the DCU of 80s, 90s and early 2000s felt. One of the only reasons the whole "Cyborg Superman is Hank Henshaw" thing worked was because you had writers willing to invest time into characters, to read each others work and to really try to build a cohesive setting. The modern day DCU just feels like a dark mess to me, where no one knows what anyone else is doing. It's very chaotic, and there's no real "history" to the setting because they basically skipped over it. It's much like the DCEU where they wanted to be the MCU, but wanted to have the success immediately without doing the work to set it up and establish stuff.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:23 pm

A minor note, but I'm still annoyed at the last thing I read regarding Wonder Woman and Donna Troy.

Up until 2011, Diana's origin was that she had been molded from clay and given life by the gods, but she was still considered a human being, just one with a very Greek Myth inspired origin. While you occasionally had things that could affect her due to her "living clay" origin, Diana was never treated as anything less than human, just a biological human with a unique origin, no different than, say, being an alien or a clone.

In contrast, Donna Troy was originally an orphan girl Diana brought to the Island who was trained in the Amazon ways and given training to become a Wonder Woman-lite heroine. Until Crisis came and she was retconned to have been given her powers by the Titans of myth. Until that was retconned and she was a mirror clone of Diana who was created to defeat a curse. Until that was retconned as Donna being the collective souls of every Donna Troy who had died during Crisis. So on. So forth. Really stupid.

Then the Nu-52 reboot happened and suddenly Diana was just another one of Zeus' offspring, and her powers came from being a demi-god rather than either being due to training or specific Shazam-rip-off gifts from the gods of Olympus. I am not a fan of this origin.

Instead, Donna is given Diana's old "molded from clay" origin, only now she's treated as essentially a kind of living golem and not a biological human being, again created basically to give Diana some kind of playmate. Diana makes it very clear that Donna is "not human" rather than simply "human with a unique origin".

But who knows, in the months since then they might have changed it to something else.


I'm also not a fan of all of the various new "Forces" they've apparently introduced over in Justice League, including a "Still Force" that is apparently counter to the Speed Force. Or the fact that they brought back Hunter Zolomon and put him in the classic Flash costume while Barry is still wearing his post-modern Tron Lines Flash costume. Or that the Speed Force apparently needed Time Force energy to travel through time and dimension, and now that's been used up? It's all just . . . I have a headache.

Poor Donna just can't catch a break.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:13 pm

So, over in the Youtube thread I brought up Professor Geek, a college professor that looks at characters and tries to get into what they mean as far as archetypes. He's a big fan of the DCU, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he says regarding a character's archetype, which is essentially what I do when I try to describe a character's core/central concept.

And he's talking about the new direction DC is going in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TfEJrkFh8A

It seems after the attempted course correction that was Re-Birth, Dan Didio is trying to push things back to the Nu-52 era. Heroes in Crisis, a political Wonder Woman, very little of this sounds like anything I want.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by MacynSnow » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:47 pm

At least DC admitted to being Wrong about what they were doing.Ok,they're making it sink faster with what Dido is doing but at least they admitted it...Unlike Marvel.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Chris Brady » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:33 pm

I heard that DC has gotten another CEO, and she's not the type to suffer low sales.

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