"Too Many Bricks"

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Batgirl III
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Re: "Too Many Bricks"

Post by Batgirl III » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:03 am

The way the "Support/Healer" works in most RPGs not a very common role in superhero comics, to be honest, which is why I don't think M&M really has a way to do it. Generally speaking, going for a more "Controller/Leader" focused build and adding a couple of "Support/Healer" tricks as secondary or tertiary parts of your build will wind up giving you a character that still feels like you're filling the niche, but keep you more involved in the action.
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Re: "Too Many Bricks"

Post by Jabroniville » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:03 pm

Super-Strength is, by its very nature, the most common power in superhero comics, so it's not a big deal. When multiple characters have it as their CENTRAL aspect, it's a bit more notable, but then you can have different tiers, fighting styles, and supplementary powers. The LOSH had a billion Flying Bricks on it, for example.

With my own OC Superhero teams, my old school "Young Guns" had multiple super-strong people- three Class 3s, one Class 15 (Spider-Man-ish strength) and a Class 100 Powerhouse. But one of those guys was a Gun Guy, another had Electrical powers, and the Class 15 was a staff-wielding strong girl.

My "Legion of Light" team from my Jabverse contains multiple super-strong people as well, but they all have varied powers- Meteor Hammer has a weapon, Mega-Woman is a Flying Brick/Blaster, Titanica is a Giantess, etc.

Chris Brady
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Re: "Too Many Bricks"

Post by Chris Brady » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:35 pm

Props for using City of Heroes nomenclature. That was a great game, made so by the community...
Batgirl III wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:01 pm
The way I see it, there are five fairly broad "combat roles" that exist, I've ranked them in what I feel is the order of priority. Most superhero teams are going to work best if they have at least one person to cover the first three. Preferably the first four. Once you've got those covered, then your team can begin to double-up.

1. Tank/Brick/Defender: Controls the pace of the fight, often by forcing the enemy to attack him or positioning himself between enemy and allies. D&D's Fighter and Paladin; DC's Superman; Marvel's Thing and Luke Cage
But every superhero has done this at some point. It makes for a great character moment when they aren't tough enough to withstand the blow.
Batgirl III wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:01 pm
2. Striker/Scrapper: Has a good combination of offense and defense to be able to win most one on one fights, but has little to no ability to handle crowds of enemies or defend anyone but himself. D&D's Thief and Monk; DC's Batman and Green Arrow; Marvel's Wolverine and Mr. Fantastic.
And this is where you argument starts to fall apart. Batman, Wolverine and Mr. Fantastic HAVE taken out small groups at once. In fact, it's Wolverine's bread and butter, not to mention Batman's shtick as well. While Mr. Fantastic thinks through his problems, preferring to avoid a fight all together.

Actually, most superheroes can clean out a room. Especially the psychics, like Professor X.
Batgirl III wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:01 pm
3. Controller/Leader: On defense, they block routes for enemies to take or otherwise manipulate their options. When on offense, they act to clear routes for teammates to take or otherwise act "through" their allies instead of directly. D&D's Wizard and Druid; DC's Green Lantern; Marvel's Invisible Woman and Professor X.
You're reaching here. The Invisible Woman's real shtick is 'Super Mom', filling the support role as she needs, despite being the most powerful member of the FF. Her powers are mostly defensive in nature, but it's her nature to be the heart of the team, filling the role of cheerleader, caretaker, mediator and defender as needed.

While GL's nature is pure versatility, they can fill just about any role. And they have. Each Human Lantern has a differing style, Hal Jordan is the Paragon, the quipping hero and protector, Jon Stewart is puzzle solver, he builds his way out of situations and Guy Gardener is just a well meaning thug. I don't know much about Rayner so I got nothing there.

Those who want to control the fight are people like Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Steven Strange, where they can dictate the pace and flow of a situation. When they can't (as is often the case in good superhero stories) then they resort to violence. And when they do, they have multiple options, from ranged to personal combat. Mr. Fantastic is more of a Gadgeteer, so he'd rather pull out a tool to fix the issue.
Batgirl III wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:01 pm
4. DPS/Blaster: Does the most damage in a fight, but has the least survivability. Generally tries to stay out of trouble and attack from where they can't be hit back. D&D's Sorcerer and Warlock; DC's Green Arrow and Fire; Marvel's Hawkeye and Human Torch.
This is possibly the easiest category. Is their main ability is to shoot something? Yes? Congratulations! You're a Blaster. Starfire, who by the way, by your broad definition would be a Brick is actually a Blaster as she prefers to shoot her problems rather than punching them. Zatanna is also primarily a blaster. Blasters don't always have to be damage dealers.
Batgirl III wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:01 pm
5. Support/Healer/Medic: Specialist role that focuses on helping teammates more than hurting the enemy. How this is done can vary tremendously, but commonly it involves healing allies, dispelling debuffs and so forth. D&D's Cleric and Bard; DC's Zatanna and Dove; Marvel's Dr. Strange.
This is where Sue Storm/Richards fits into. And is possibly the only character who actually fits here.

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Ares
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Re: "Too Many Bricks"

Post by Ares » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:58 pm

To me at least, a character who gets the term "brick" needs to have superstrength and durability as their primary ability (such as Luke Cage) or have high levels of it while having other powers (such as Captain Atom). I don't really consider Spider-Man a "brick" for example, despite his superstrength, because he's generally not the type to just shrug off damage the way other bricks do, and because it's frequently his least used ability (his agility, spider-sense, wall crawling and webbing are generally much more played up than how strong he is).

So for me, you've got:

Basic Bricks: The Hulk / Thing / She-Hulk / Colossus / Luke Cage variety who are primarily just really strong, really tough guys. When guys like Ant-Man or Atlast go giant size, they fall into this category with the caveat of also being super huge. And occasionally you'll get characters like All Might who are Basic Bricks, but also have some flavor of super speed.

Flying Bricks: The Superman / Captain Marvel / Gladiator / Mighty Man / Invincible variety who are primarily about being flying strongmen, even if they might have other secondary powers. They frequently have some flavor of Super Speed, leading to PS238 using the term 'FISS' (Flying Invulnerable Strength and Speed) to describe that settings most common superpower. Density Shifters who can go low density enough to fly and then high density enough to be superstrong / tough can also fit in here to some degree.

Battle Bricks: The Thor / Wonder Woman / Hercules / Orion / Goku type who are generally about combining their amazing physical abilities with warrior skill of various degrees. They frequently have other magical weapons or abilities beyond their fighting skills, but the fact that they're warriors first is always something that comes into play.

Blaster Brick: The Carol Danvers / Wildfire / Captain Atom / Icon type who use potent energy attacks as often as they fly in and punch things, if not moreso.

I don't included guys like Iron Man, Martian Manhunter or the Silver Surfer in the basic "brick" write-ups, because while they do frequently have high level superstrength and durability, they also have over a dozen other powers that all receive equal billing or more, so they're really more of their own "Superhuman Swiss Army Knife" types.

Now, as far as their being too many Bricks on a team at one time, it can seem to happen at some points. I love Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, but I realized at some point, over half of the heroes on the team could attain better than Class 50 superstrength / toughness. On a team with 10 people on it, only four people (Capt. America, Wasp, Hawkeye, Black Panther) lacked superstrength. And not just superstrength, but fairly high superstrength (Iron Man, Giant Man, Hulk, Thor, Vision, Ms. Marvel). Not necessarily a problem, as it made the fights much more intense, but it was noticeable.

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Batgirl III
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Re: "Too Many Bricks"

Post by Batgirl III » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:30 pm

Like I said, Chris Brady, I was only looking at "combat roles" in a roleplaying game and I acknowledge that this is a very subjective thing and that there a lot of crossover between the categories. But when I design a NPC super-team for a campaign setting, like I did with Cape City*, I try to have these areas covered in the order I gave. My solo superheroes tend to be "Tank/Brick/Defender" types or "Striker/Scrapper" types; Very small teams tend to consister of a Defender, a Scrapper, and either a Controller or a Blaster. Larger teams tend to grow from there.

It's not a hard-and-fast rule, more of a guideline, but it works for me.

* A project I still haven't finished. I know, I know... One day...
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Re: "Too Many Bricks"

Post by Chris Brady » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:26 am

Batgirl III wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:30 pm
Like I said, Chris Brady, I was only looking at "combat roles" in a roleplaying game and I acknowledge that this is a very subjective thing and that there a lot of crossover between the categories. But when I design a NPC super-team for a campaign setting, like I did with Cape City*, I try to have these areas covered in the order I gave. My solo superheroes tend to be "Tank/Brick/Defender" types or "Striker/Scrapper" types; Very small teams tend to consister of a Defender, a Scrapper, and either a Controller or a Blaster. Larger teams tend to grow from there.

It's not a hard-and-fast rule, more of a guideline, but it works for me.

* A project I still haven't finished. I know, I know... One day...
The problem is that your definition is ending up to being way too broad, and shoving archetypes into places they don't quite fit. And I'm using generally accepted conventions.

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Re: "Too Many Bricks"

Post by Ken » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:20 pm

Dear God, here we go again....
Does a Winnie poo in the 100-acre wood?

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Re: "Too Many Bricks"

Post by Chris Brady » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:39 am

Ares wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:58 pm
To me at least, a character who gets the term "brick" needs to have superstrength and durability as their primary ability (such as Luke Cage) or have high levels of it while having other powers (such as Captain Atom). I don't really consider Spider-Man a "brick" for example, despite his superstrength, because he's generally not the type to just shrug off damage the way other bricks do, and because it's frequently his least used ability (his agility, spider-sense, wall crawling and webbing are generally much more played up than how strong he is).

So for me, you've got:

Basic Bricks: The Hulk / Thing / She-Hulk / Colossus / Luke Cage variety who are primarily just really strong, really tough guys. When guys like Ant-Man or Atlast go giant size, they fall into this category with the caveat of also being super huge. And occasionally you'll get characters like All Might who are Basic Bricks, but also have some flavor of super speed.
AKA Powerhouse.
Ares wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:58 pm
Flying Bricks: The Superman / Captain Marvel / Gladiator / Mighty Man / Invincible variety who are primarily about being flying strongmen, even if they might have other secondary powers. They frequently have some flavor of Super Speed, leading to PS238 using the term 'FISS' (Flying Invulnerable Strength and Speed) to describe that settings most common superpower. Density Shifters who can go low density enough to fly and then high density enough to be superstrong / tough can also fit in here to some degree.
AKA Paragon.
Ares wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:58 pm
Battle Bricks: The Thor / Wonder Woman / Hercules / Orion / Goku type who are generally about combining their amazing physical abilities with warrior skill of various degrees. They frequently have other magical weapons or abilities beyond their fighting skills, but the fact that they're warriors first is always something that comes into play.
AKA Warrior.
Ares wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:58 pm
Blaster Brick: The Carol Danvers / Wildfire / Captain Atom / Icon type who use potent energy attacks as often as they fly in and punch things, if not moreso.
This is kinda sticky, but most of them are just Blasters with a lick of Brick.
Ares wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:58 pm
I don't included guys like Iron Man, Martian Manhunter or the Silver Surfer in the basic "brick" write-ups, because while they do frequently have high level superstrength and durability, they also have over a dozen other powers that all receive equal billing or more, so they're really more of their own "Superhuman Swiss Army Knife" types.
Ironman is a 'Battlesuit' because he doesn't rely on the suits innate strength and toughness, he has other tools to use. Silver Surfer and Martian Manhunter are still under the Paragon category, because their inhuman levels of strength and toughness is still one of the mainstays, but like Superman, they have other foci as well.
Ares wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:58 pm
Now, as far as their being too many Bricks on a team at one time, it can seem to happen at some points. I love Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, but I realized at some point, over half of the heroes on the team could attain better than Class 50 superstrength / toughness. On a team with 10 people on it, only four people (Capt. America, Wasp, Hawkeye, Black Panther) lacked superstrength. And not just superstrength, but fairly high superstrength (Iron Man, Giant Man, Hulk, Thor, Vision, Ms. Marvel). Not necessarily a problem, as it made the fights much more intense, but it was noticeable.
Thing is, each of them had their own focus. Cap was the team leader, even if he wasn't, Ironman was the gadgeteer/scientist with a swiss army suit, Hulk was the powerhouse, Thor a warrior, Wasp is a blaster, as is Hawkeye... So on and so forth.

There's really no need to over complicate things by trying to overly broaden the definitions or try to find an exact niche for said hero. If it's close enough, then it's good enough.

M&M 3e nails it perfectly.

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