Jab's Builds! (Scar! Bonkers! Pocahontas! A Goofy Movie!)

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L-Space
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Bows! Guns! Mounted Combat! Random Guys!)

Post by L-Space » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:10 pm

Ares wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:43 am
I wouldn't mind Crusader as much if he wasn't apparently the only Catholic/Christian character in Marvel whose faith apparently gave him superpowers. Marvel actually has done a decent job of showcasing positive people of faith, such as Dardevil, Nightcrawler, Flamebird and the like, but this guy is the equivalent of a D&D Paladin in Marvel, but whose powers apparently come from The Lord. They should have made it clear that it was Mephisto or someone twisting his faith and making use of it or something, someone who was using his fanaticism as a weapon. Have him go up against someone like Nightcrawler, someone who looks like a demon but has the soul of a good Catholic/Christian, to contrast Crusader's zealous fanaticism. Show the pros and cons, maybe have Crusader lose and actually demonstrate values that faith is suppose to demonstrate, like forgiveness, repentance, etc.

I mean, you put Michael Carpenter from The Dresden Files in the Marvel Universe and translated Michael's faith into the kind of abilities Crusader demonstrated the first time around? Michael would be one-shotting the Sentry, and then the Void afterwards.
Man, if you put Michael Carpenter in the Marvel universe and the Crusader wouldn't stand a chance. Not because of Michael kicking his ass (he could), but from Michael showing the Crusader what true faith is all about while also showing the faults of overzealousness.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Bows! Guns! Mounted Combat! Random Guys!)

Post by Ares » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:39 pm

L-Space wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:10 pm
Ares wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:43 am
I wouldn't mind Crusader as much if he wasn't apparently the only Catholic/Christian character in Marvel whose faith apparently gave him superpowers. Marvel actually has done a decent job of showcasing positive people of faith, such as Dardevil, Nightcrawler, Flamebird and the like, but this guy is the equivalent of a D&D Paladin in Marvel, but whose powers apparently come from The Lord. They should have made it clear that it was Mephisto or someone twisting his faith and making use of it or something, someone who was using his fanaticism as a weapon. Have him go up against someone like Nightcrawler, someone who looks like a demon but has the soul of a good Catholic/Christian, to contrast Crusader's zealous fanaticism. Show the pros and cons, maybe have Crusader lose and actually demonstrate values that faith is suppose to demonstrate, like forgiveness, repentance, etc.

I mean, you put Michael Carpenter from The Dresden Files in the Marvel Universe and translated Michael's faith into the kind of abilities Crusader demonstrated the first time around? Michael would be one-shotting the Sentry, and then the Void afterwards.
Man, if you put Michael Carpenter in the Marvel universe and the Crusader wouldn't stand a chance. Not because of Michael kicking his ass (he could), but from Michael showing the Crusader what true faith is all about while also showing the faults of overzealousness.
Hell, Michael already did that to a guy who was basically the Crusader during "The Warrior".

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Bows! Guns! Mounted Combat! Random Guys!)

Post by L-Space » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:38 pm

Ares wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:39 pm
L-Space wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:10 pm
Ares wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:43 am
I wouldn't mind Crusader as much if he wasn't apparently the only Catholic/Christian character in Marvel whose faith apparently gave him superpowers. Marvel actually has done a decent job of showcasing positive people of faith, such as Dardevil, Nightcrawler, Flamebird and the like, but this guy is the equivalent of a D&D Paladin in Marvel, but whose powers apparently come from The Lord. They should have made it clear that it was Mephisto or someone twisting his faith and making use of it or something, someone who was using his fanaticism as a weapon. Have him go up against someone like Nightcrawler, someone who looks like a demon but has the soul of a good Catholic/Christian, to contrast Crusader's zealous fanaticism. Show the pros and cons, maybe have Crusader lose and actually demonstrate values that faith is suppose to demonstrate, like forgiveness, repentance, etc.

I mean, you put Michael Carpenter from The Dresden Files in the Marvel Universe and translated Michael's faith into the kind of abilities Crusader demonstrated the first time around? Michael would be one-shotting the Sentry, and then the Void afterwards.
Man, if you put Michael Carpenter in the Marvel universe and the Crusader wouldn't stand a chance. Not because of Michael kicking his ass (he could), but from Michael showing the Crusader what true faith is all about while also showing the faults of overzealousness.
Hell, Michael already did that to a guy who was basically the Crusader during "The Warrior".
Yep, of course Michael ended up having to beat the crap out of the guy anyways. Which he did with a crutch, while recovering from a major injury/surgery.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Bows! Guns! Mounted Combat! Random Guys!)

Post by MacynSnow » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:07 pm

You gotta realize somethin',Dude's like The Crusader don't care if you think their wrong,they'll just consider it "Another Test Of Faith" and won't listen.They would have to be presented with(and i'm being a little serious here,so try not to giggle at the pun) an Honest-To-God Angel telling them to quit before they'd even Consider it.(this wierdly enough happened in JLA/Avengers when Crusader met Azrael(Valley).It was really Awkward for Jean-Paul....)

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Bows! Guns! Mounted Combat! Random Guys!)

Post by FuzzyBoots » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:52 pm

MacynSnow wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:07 pm
You gotta realize somethin',Dude's like The Crusader don't care if you think their wrong,they'll just consider it "Another Test Of Faith" and won't listen.They would have to be presented with(and i'm being a little serious here,so try not to giggle at the pun) an Honest-To-God Angel telling them to quit before they'd even Consider it.(this wierdly enough happened in JLA/Avengers when Crusader met Azrael(Valley).It was really Awkward for Jean-Paul....)
And even then, you run the risk of them being certain that this is a sending from the Devil, sent there to try to mislead them. It's a human thing to have difficulty changing one's position. The stronger you hold that position, the harder it is to budge you because you're automatically classifying contradictory data as "wrong".

Has it ever actually been confirmed that Crusader is receiving his powers from a divine source? He'd be far from the first powered individual to attribute their mutant/gamma/magic powers to some benefactor's gift. After that, it's just psychology.

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Bows! Guns! Mounted Combat! Random Guys!)

Post by MacynSnow » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:59 pm

FuzzyBoots wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:52 pm
MacynSnow wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:07 pm
You gotta realize somethin',Dude's like The Crusader don't care if you think their wrong,they'll just consider it "Another Test Of Faith" and won't listen.They would have to be presented with(and i'm being a little serious here,so try not to giggle at the pun) an Honest-To-God Angel telling them to quit before they'd even Consider it.(this wierdly enough happened in JLA/Avengers when Crusader met Azrael(Valley).It was really Awkward for Jean-Paul....)
And even then, you run the risk of them being certain that this is a sending from the Devil, sent there to try to mislead them. It's a human thing to have difficulty changing one's position. The stronger you hold that position, the harder it is to budge you because you're automatically classifying contradictory data as "wrong".

Has it ever actually been confirmed that Crusader is receiving his powers from a divine source? He'd be far from the first powered individual to attribute their mutant/gamma/magic powers to some benefactor's gift. After that, it's just psychology.
Actually the Angel Azrael(the one they tried to replace Hawkman with) stated in the JLA/Avengers Series that it was more than likely a little of both as he stated he felt a little "Angel's Grace"(i think that's what he called it) coming off him,but he couldn't be certain...

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Bows! Guns! Mounted Combat! Random Guys!)

Post by Ares » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:15 pm

I'm pretty sure Crusader never appeared in JLAvengers, and Zauriel at best had a cameo appearance when Perez was going gonzo in the final issue.

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Bows! Guns! Mounted Combat! Random Guys!)

Post by Jabroniville » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:49 pm

FuzzyBoots wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:52 pm
MacynSnow wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:07 pm
You gotta realize somethin',Dude's like The Crusader don't care if you think their wrong,they'll just consider it "Another Test Of Faith" and won't listen.They would have to be presented with(and i'm being a little serious here,so try not to giggle at the pun) an Honest-To-God Angel telling them to quit before they'd even Consider it.(this wierdly enough happened in JLA/Avengers when Crusader met Azrael(Valley).It was really Awkward for Jean-Paul....)
And even then, you run the risk of them being certain that this is a sending from the Devil, sent there to try to mislead them. It's a human thing to have difficulty changing one's position. The stronger you hold that position, the harder it is to budge you because you're automatically classifying contradictory data as "wrong".

Has it ever actually been confirmed that Crusader is receiving his powers from a divine source? He'd be far from the first powered individual to attribute their mutant/gamma/magic powers to some benefactor's gift. After that, it's just psychology.
Crusader gained his power from his crusading ancestors; it's never clear whether or not they came from God. It could just be mysterious Ghost Powers or Magic or whatever (both have happened plenty), and Crusader is just projecting.

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Bows! Guns! Mounted Combat! Random Guys!)

Post by Jabroniville » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:50 pm

Four years and nine months ago, I first posted Freedom Ring. Of course, now that we all know the term "SJW", I'm sure we'd all hear WAY bigger complaints if this guy got offed TODAY...

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Freedom Ring

Post by Jabroniville » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:51 pm

Image

Freedom Ring was always planned as an inexperienced hero who would get beaten up constantly and probably die. I wanted to comment on the fact that most superheroes get their powers and are okay at it... and that's not how life works. During working on the book, I was also noticing that most gay characters... are all about being gay. Straight characters are well-rounded characters who like chicks. So I wanted to do a well-rounded character who just happened to like dudes. Then I decided to combine the two ideas. In hindsight, yeah, killing a gay character is no good when there are so few of them... but I really had only the best of intentions in mind."
-Robert Kirkman


FREEDOM RING (Curtis Doyle)
Created By:
Robert Kirkman & Andy Kuhn
First Appearance: Marvel Team-Up #20
Role: One-Shot Character, Dead Gay Guy
PL 6 (146)
STRENGTH
1/8 STAMINA 1/8 AGILITY 1/4
FIGHTING 2/4 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Deception 2 (+4)

Advantages:
Ranged Attack 2

Powers:
"Free, Dumb Ring" (Flaws: Removable) [117]
"Sliver of a Cosmic Cube"
Variable 8 (Cosmic Effects) (56) -- (59)
  • AE: Transform 10 (Anything to Anything) (Flaws: Reverts Back Outside of 30 Feet) (40)
  • AE: Healing 6 (12)
  • AE: Create 10 (Feats: Precise, Innate) (Extras: Continuous) (32)
Summon People 4 (Extras: Controlled, 4 Minions +4, Horde, Variable 2- Heroes or Harem of Dudes) (Flaws: Tiring on 3 Ranks) (37)

"Idealized Physique"
Enhanced Strength 7 (14)
Enhanced Stamina 7 (14)
Enhanced Agility 3 (6)
Enhanced Fighting 2 (4)
Flight 6 (120 mph) (12)
-- (146 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +2 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Idealized Physique +4 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +1 (+4 Idealized)

Defenses:
Dodge +4 (DC 14), Parry +4 (DC 14), Toughness +1 (+8 Idealized), Fortitude +8, Will +2

Complications:
Motivation (Being a Superhero)- Motivated a bit by altruism, and a bit by how cool it is to be a hero, Curtis wants to be a superhero after discovering this fancy ring.

Total: Abilities: 18 / Skills: 2--1 / Advantages: 2 / Powers: 117 / Defenses: 8 (146)

Freedom Ring- "Realistically"-Incompetent Superhero:
-Freedom Ring was part of Robert Kirkman's run on the short-lived third volume of Marvel Team-Up (the first version was a big part of the Jobber Creation Market of the 1970s- journeyman writers would often create one-note baddies for Spidey and a partner to fight)- he wanted to establish that a beginning super-hero should actually be a BIT less capable in a fight compared to how they usually are, noting how most rookie heroes come flying in and beat the crap out of dozens of experienced soldiers or criminals at a time, and that it should take a bit longer to get GOOD at super-heroics. He also decided that the character was going to die in the process- a decent idea that can point out an interesting thing most comics overlook (of course, this is ROBERT KIRKMAN, so he just likes killing people off). He also decided that the "casual everyman" character he created should be gay- an attempt at diversity and making a character just HAPPEN to be gay rather than be DEFINED by it (like Northstar often is- and many other token characters suffer from the same thing).

-The problem? He'd just offed about 1/4 of the gay population of the Marvel Universe (and Joe Quesada touted him as "Marvel's Leading Gay Character" LITERALLY a month before!). His positive little idea had an unintended backlash, as special interest groups and other fans online reacted VERY poorly to the introduction (though I hadn't even heard of the character until 2014- the rage over Northstar's death was much more vocal- I remember one guy I knew on another forum pointing out how dumb it was that people who'd never read the character before were now spouting off about being fans of his), and death, of one of the only gay characters out there.

So Are Gays Immune To Death, Then?:
-Now, this produces some interesting questions & comments. Does his sexuality alone prove that the character deserves to survive, and do all minority characters deserve such special interest? Are people only paying attention to him because he was gay? Certainly MOST D-league side characters never get such attention- forgotten types are often doomed to being someone's "Red Guardian Character" and become obscure to all but a few. Are people just being too sensitive (like how "Women In Refrigerators" started as a group of legitimate complaints that female side characters were being used as disposable victims, but eventually turned into "Everything bad that has ever happened to a woman is bad and proof of endemic sexism in the comic book industry- all women must be flawless Strong Female Protagonists")? Why ARE there only five gay people in the entire universe if there are literally THOUSANDS of superhumans and somewhere around 5% of people are gay-ish?

-Ultimately, I think that comics needs more diversity- it's boring if everyone's the same Standard Heterosexual Caucasian. Similarly, I've had a few people point out to me that growing up as a minority and watching NOBODY like you on TV or in stuff you read was a bit disheartening- you know how so many comic book fans grew up being thankful that Spider-Man or Kitty Pryde or somebody sort of represented them, because they were a bit nerdy? Basically like that- I've heard from a few crippled people that they really enjoyed seeing someone from time to time that was in a wheelchair in a comic book, though to our "PC-Detecting" eyes that looks like goofy-ass tokenism (remember that Crippled Ghostbuster?). Also, if there are PLENTY of minority characters, then you don't have to use them as teams of Tokens (which usually just look silly- look at the Disney Fairies or the usual Multiracial Casts of every kids product of the '90s), or expect any kind of special treatment regarding their survival or general capabilities.

-It's true that a gay character shouldn't be immune to harm because he's gay, BUUUUUUUUUUUUUT you can't deny that it's a little like a personal "Up YOURS!" to people when one of the only people who represents them in the funnybooks is wiped out super-quickly. Imagine if 1970s Marvel had killed Luke Cage, leaving only 1 or 2 other black people in the entire universe? Black fans would have been justifiably annoyed. I think there's a line between "We must have equality for EVERYONE- except that all minorities and womyn are to be held on a pedestal above inferior White Cis Males and their Male Privilege" and "KILL ALL PC-SPEWING GARBAGE! All comics should be BY MEN and FOR MEN because that's all who's reading!"

-... heh. I wrote all that in 2014, before I had ever heard of the term "SJW".

The Actual Bio:
-Of course little of that has to do with Freedom Ring THE CHARACTER- he's just some regular guy who found a Cosmic Ring that Warped Reality, and used it to become a superhero. He made himself super-strong, durable and fit, but didn't know a lot of battlefield tactics, and The Iron Maniac killed him on one of his first missions, while allowing The Avengers to regroup and stop the bad guy. His ring was later taken up by the Skrull character Crusader, who became a short-lived hero of his own during Secret Invasion, fighting his own people before being killed by 3-D Man (and showed that it could Summon facsimilies of popular heroes at lower level). Of course, nobody mourned the poor Skrull, since his race doesn't have any special interest groups. As it stands, Freedom Ring is PL 6 because he's a low-end fighter, but has high-tier powers.

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Mounted Combat! Vibraxas! Crusader! Freedom Ring!)

Post by HalloweenJack » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:27 pm

I was to understand there would be sexy young nurses and all I got was the Crusader.




Anyway, I always thought Freedom Ring could be kinda cool. If I ever get off my ass to get MLU going, he'd definitely be in there at some point. Maybe at the Future Foundation training and such

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Mounted Combat! Vibraxas! Crusader! Freedom Ring!)

Post by KorokoMystia » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:40 pm

Man, I still remember the Extreme Ghostbusters.

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Mounted Combat! Vibraxas! Crusader! Freedom Ring!)

Post by Ares » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:53 pm

The idea of a hero having a hard time during his first few outings made sense. And honestly, up until a few years ago, it was pretty common for well done new heroes to struggle for a bit. When Spider-Man first appeared, he spent some time as a wrestler gaining experience, but when he fought criminals and supervillains, he'd often struggle during the first encounter. Half the reason he survived those early years was because of his Spider-Sense.

One reason I liked the Will Payton Starman was that he actually did struggle with his powers at first, and it took him a while to really figure out what he could do. Heck, at first he didn't even know he could shoot light and heat, he thought his powers were primarily being a flying brick with minor shapeshifting. But being a flying brick meant he could handle regular criminals while he got good at being a hero, so that when he encountered a supervillain, he had some experience as a fighter.

Likewise, when Static first showed up, the first time he fought a supervillain, he got his butt kicked, but in true Spider-Man fashion, he figured out the villains weakness and won in the rematch.

Actually thinking about it, you rarely have a new hero who just "gets" his powers who immediately starts fighting crime. Most of them spend a little time practicing with their powers, or being trained by someone else, and often do have more trouble at the start. Most of the X-Men receive training in their powers constantly, for instance. Some folks who gain their powers through their own methodology are experts in how their powers work due to that. And then some folks like the Hulk are just so powerful their inexperience rarely hurts them. Kyle Rayner often had help to survive his first real fights and was legendary for how trouble he had early on.

Really, the idea of a new hero getting his powers and immediately being a badass is something you saw more in books from Image and the Ultraverse. But that tended to be more of the "Artist Power Fantasy" books anyway.

I'd also say the approach of "make a well-rounded character first and foremost, and then give them whatever sexuality you want" is a better way to handle that. As I've said before, I actually want more diverse characters in comics. A large number of my favorite characters are women, Black, Chinese, Japanese, Hispanic, etc. My problem with Marvel and DC wasn't the idea, but how they implemented it.

As for killing Freedom Ring off . . . yeah, that was dumb. I mean, here's an idea: why not do the "inexperienced hero gets killed" story, but then have Freedom Ring's boyfriend decide to take up his dead lover's cause, but get proper training first so as to not repeat his mistakes? That way you get to tell that story, and still introduce a new gay character to the setting.

Then again, Freedom Ring's powers are kind of crappy, at least in how they were displayed in story. Sure, you can transform anything within 30 feet of you into anything you want, but the effect vanishes as soon as you leave. But he could use the ring to give himself the body he wanted and fly. At that point, why not just focus the ring on making yourself a high end flying brick and not worry about transforming stuff?

I mean, what happened if you used the ring to heal someone? If you left the 30 foot range, would they become injured again?

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Mounted Combat! Vibraxas! Crusader! Freedom Ring!)

Post by Jabroniville » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:53 pm

HJ says he posted this, but I don't see it. In any case:


THUNDRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

How in the hell did she not make it in the wrestling business? LOOK AT THAT BODY!!!

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Crusader (Skrull)

Post by Jabroniville » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:23 pm

ImageImage

CRUSADER II (Z'Reg, aka Aubrey Thompson)
Created By:
Robert Kirkman & Andy Kuhn
First Appearance: Marvel Team-Up #23 (Aug. 2006)
Role: Superhero Skrull
Group Affiliations: The Skrull Empire, The Initiative
PL 9 (236)
STRENGTH
3 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Deception 4 (+4)
Expertise (Space Soldiers) 4 (+6)
Intimidation 2 (+2)
Perception 3 (+3)
Technology 3 (+5)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Benefit (Cipher- No Human Identity), Equipment 5 (Blasters +6 Multiattack, Rebreathers, Space Armour)

Powers:
"Skrull Physiology"
Morph 4 (Any Form) [20]
Concealment 1 (Detect True Shape) [2]
Shapeshift 1 [8]

"Free, Dumb Ring" (Flaws: Removable) [117]
"Sliver of a Cosmic Cube"
Variable 8 (Cosmic Effects) (56) -- (59)
  • AE: Transform 10 (Anything to Anything) (Flaws: Reverts Back Outside of 30 Feet) (40)
  • AE: Healing 6 (12)
  • AE: Create 10 (Feats: Precise, Innate) (Extras: Continuous) (32)
    Summon People 4 (Extras: Controlled, 4 Minions +4, Horde, Variable 2- Heroes or Harem of Dudes/Ladies) (Flaws: Tiring on 3 Ranks) (37)
Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Body Weaponry +10 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Blasters +4 (+6 Ranged Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +4 (+6 Body Armour), Fortitude +5, Will +5

Complications:
Responsibility (Skrull Empire)- However, he has rejected his birthright.
Responsibility (Humanity)- Z'Reg has fallen in love with human culture, and now defends humanity against the evil Skrulls.
Prejudice (The Kree, Shi'ar)

Total: Abilities: 62 / Skills: 18--9 / Advantages: 6 / Powers: 147 / Defenses: 12 (236)

-One of 10,000 Good Skrulls on Marvel Earth, Crusader was created for Robert Kirkman's failed Marvel Team-Up revamp. His gimmick is that he came to Earth as a spy, but fell in love with the culture he found there, renting movies and becoming a superhero. He becomes the mentor of the young hero Freedom Ring, taking the boy's reality-warping ring for himself when Ring is killed. Honoring his fallen comrade, I suppose, but the next writer had him simply retire and use the ring to create Sexy Skrull Women. However, he is soon recruited into The Initiative, joining a class of trainees- he is maimed by "KIA", but healed.

-In a clever bit, Crusader suspects that Yellowjacket (the director of Camp Hammond) is actually a Skrull, owing to their love of pickles & strawberries- a similar taste to a Skrull delicacy. When the Secret Invasion happens, Crusader fights on humanity's behalf, becoming a great agent against his own people. However, after a long series of battles, proving his own bravery... he is spotted by Delroy "3-D Man" Garrett's "Skrull Detection" lenses, and shot through the head. It's meant as a sick, unfortunate irony, especially as Delroy does a "WHAT? Skrull." over Crusader's dead body.

-Later, it's brought up that Delroy is hated by many Initiative agents, who suspect the truth- that Crusader was fighting against his own people on humanity's behalf, but nothing ever comes of it.

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