Jab's Builds! (Mechagodzilla! Jet Jaguar! KING GHIDORAH!!!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by Jabroniville » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:36 am

MacynSnow wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:29 am
This is a really question that's coming out of nowhere but ........why haven't you stated up the Batman villian Anarchy yet?
A general distaste for statting up DC characters outside of certain "settings" (ie a Teen Titans set, a JLA set, etc.), the fact that I don't have much interest in a Bat-set that doesn't involve the Animated Series, and the fact that I think the character is REALLY dumb- it's very silly to create a character for the sole purpose of blurting out the writer's own exact political philosophy, especially if he just runs around lecturing other characters and using them as strawmen. The fact that he would be a boring character to stat ("Agile guy with stick" is like 800 other Bat-characters or martial artists) doesn't help.

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by MacynSnow » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:50 am

Jabroniville wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:36 am
MacynSnow wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:29 am
This is a really question that's coming out of nowhere but ........why haven't you stated up the Batman villian Anarchy yet?
A general distaste for statting up DC characters outside of certain "settings" (ie a Teen Titans set, a JLA set, etc.), the fact that I don't have much interest in a Bat-set that doesn't involve the Animated Series, and the fact that I think the character is REALLY dumb- it's very silly to create a character for the sole purpose of blurting out the writer's own exact political philosophy, especially if he just runs around lecturing other characters and using them as strawmen. The fact that he would be a boring character to stat ("Agile guy with stick" is like 800 other Bat-characters or martial artists) doesn't help.
I see you reasoning,though i think he was an intresting take on the Urban Hacktavist theme(true,he would've been better suited to being a Question villian,but i'm not in charge of DC.....)

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by Batgirl III » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:50 am

Anarky -- note the "Xtreme Kool Letterz" trope guys -- was actually a very interesting character in his initial debut story, Detective Comics (Vol 1) #608-609. He was a pretty basic 'serial killer with a theme' that we'd seen plenty of times in the Bronze Age Detective Comics, but it was interesting to see his motivation was political instead of garden variety* insane psychopathy. It was also fun to see the Batman working the case as a detective and not just punching people until they confessed. Their were clues, false leads, more clues, and then the punching. The twist ending** that he was just a little kid was unique at the time too.

* Gotham City has weird gardens, okay?
** It happened in 1989, you don't get a spoiler warning.

Then Fabian Nicieza had to come in a few years later and go all Nineties on him. The stupidity of the character all traces back to Nicieza. Allow me to relive some of my reactions to these changes when I first read these issues, my comments are in parenthesis. Ahem. Fusing his brain hemisphere to increase his intelligence ("Wha--?"), getting into a fight with Etrigan ("What the--!"), thinking that he was the son of the Joker ("What the $%&#!?") and doing battle with Darkseid ("WHAT THE ACTUAL $%&#!?").

Roderick Long is a professor of philosophy and political science at Auburn University, he's a very influential voice in the circles of academia that study libertarianism, praxeology, and anarchism. He's also "One of Us" and a comic book nerd. Dr. Long "summarized" the changed Fabian Nicieza made to Anarky as a mock-dialectic:

Thesis: Anarky is too interesting a character not to write about.
Antithesis: Anarky is too interesting a character for me to write successfully about.
Dialectical Synthesis: Therefore, I will make Anarky less interesting so I can write about him.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by Woodclaw » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:46 am

Batgirl III wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:50 am
Anarky -- note the "Xtreme Kool Letterz" trope guys -- was actually a very interesting character in his initial debut story, Detective Comics (Vol 1) #608-609. He was a pretty basic 'serial killer with a theme' that we'd seen plenty of times in the Bronze Age Detective Comics, but it was interesting to see his motivation was political instead of garden variety* insane psychopathy. It was also fun to see the Batman working the case as a detective and not just punching people until they confessed. Their were clues, false leads, more clues, and then the punching. The twist ending** that he was just a little kid was unique at the time too.

* Gotham City has weird gardens, okay?
** It happened in 1989, you don't get a spoiler warning.
My personal suspicion was that Anarky was meant to be an homage (or a rip-off) of Alan Moore's V for Vendetta.
Batgirl III wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:50 am
Then Fabian Nicieza had to come in a few years later and go all Nineties on him. The stupidity of the character all traces back to Nicieza. Allow me to relive some of my reactions to these changes when I first read these issues, my comments are in parenthesis. Ahem. Fusing his brain hemisphere to increase his intelligence ("Wha--?"), getting into a fight with Etrigan ("What the--!"), thinking that he was the son of the Joker ("What the $%&#!?") and doing battle with Darkseid ("WHAT THE ACTUAL $%&#!?").

Roderick Long is a professor of philosophy and political science at Auburn University, he's a very influential voice in the circles of academia that study libertarianism, praxeology, and anarchism. He's also "One of Us" and a comic book nerd. Dr. Long "summarized" the changed Fabian Nicieza made to Anarky as a mock-dialectic:

Thesis: Anarky is too interesting a character not to write about.
Antithesis: Anarky is too interesting a character for me to write successfully about.
Dialectical Synthesis: Therefore, I will make Anarky less interesting so I can write about him.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, many years ago I played a GURPS game where our characters went dimension hoping. At some point the PCs ended up in the offices of Marvel Comics (don't ask... we were like 16 and drunk) and every time something went wrong there was this voice from upstairs roaring: "Nicieza, you're fired!"
You can pretty much tell how much the GM loved Fabian Nicieza.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by Batgirl III » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:02 am

Nicieza isn't always bad, I enjoyed his work on the Justice League: Midsummer Nightmare mini-series (which reunited the "Big Seven" to set up Morrison's epic JLA run), his run on Thunderbolts, and of course his run on New Warriors at the start of that team's existence.

But, well, the during the height of the X-Cessive Nineties era, Nicieza was one of the biggest X-Amples of the form at Marvel. Sure, its Rob Liedfield and Todd MacFarlane that are the best known, but Nicieza was definitely in the mix.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by Woodclaw » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:10 am

Batgirl III wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:02 am
Nicieza isn't always bad, I enjoyed his work on the Justice League: Midsummer Nightmare mini-series (which reunited the "Big Seven" to set up Morrison's epic JLA run), his run on Thunderbolts, and of course his run on New Warriors at the start of that team's existence.

But, well, the during the height of the X-Cessive Nineties era, Nicieza was one of the biggest X-Amples of the form at Marvel. Sure, its Rob Liedfield and Todd MacFarlane that are the best known, but Nicieza was definitely in the mix.
Well, if memory serves Nicieza took over X-Force when Liefeld left and pretty much reinvented some of the characters, in particular he pretty much reworked Deadpool into the "Merc with a Mouth".
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by Batgirl III » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:33 am

Yeah, Liefeld's Deadpool was a pretty boring (and very obvious) ripoff of Deathstroke.

It was Fabian Nicieza who actuall distinguished Wade from Slade by giving him an origin story filled with cruel irony; gave him his first sidekick, Weasel, to bounce expository dialogue off of; and, most importantly, a sense of humor and a Spidey style sense of banter during combat. But it was Joe Kelly writing Deadpool's first ongoing series that expanded this into the true "Merc With a Mouth" that has become (for better or worse) one of the biggest hits Marvel has had in twenty years.

Liefeld created him, Nicieza put him on the tight track, but it was Kelly who got him over the finish-line.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by Jabroniville » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:54 am

Nicieza did a TON of good stuff at Marvel- his New Warriors was excellent (truly a shining light in 1990s comics), he made Cable something OTHER than a "Grumpy Military Guy" (giving him a fully-formed personality with positive traits), he did great stuff with Cannonball, and he even gave development to Shatterstar- SHATTERSTAR!!

He was a slave to a lot of his artists' "Sketchpad Character" obsessions, which is why I think it's a bit unfair to dump some of the Mutant Liberation Front or Weapon: PRIME excesses on him- it was pretty clear that he thought little of either group, and as soon as he had more power, he dumped both of them with authority.

If you're looking for someone to blame for what the X-Men turned into, it's Scott Lobdell all the way. Lobdell's garbage ruined that series for years, and had way more far-reaching effects than Nicieza (most of the Acolytes are Lobdell creations).

Honestly, look at what Liefeld & co. created WITHOUT Fabian, and you realize what a normalizing influence he was on a lot of them.

Image
Image
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Now, Fabe DID have bad aspects as a writer. He never did get any better at writing villains. Books from 1993 and 2003 have the exact same problem- overly-verbose douchelords waxing faux-poetic in giant rants that are CLEARLY an attempt to mimic Claremont, but from a writer who's nowhere near as good. He turned Rogue into a 100% "poor me" character, and so far from Claremont's vision of the character that I was stunned when I read '80s X-Men for the first time.

And re-reading much of his '90s stuff- the X-books don't really hold up, but are at least okay, for the most part. MUCH better than Lobdell's, but worse than Claremont's were. They're... Perfectly Acceptable Comics. Keep in mind what most of Marvel and DC's output looked like during the same time period (DC was like an incompetent attempt at mimicking the already-bad mimicking that IMAGE was doing!), and he's one of the best.

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by Batgirl III » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:24 am

There are certainly far worse writers out there. Nicieza certainly has his ups and downs, as do all writers, but his work with Anarky was definitely a low-point. He took a character who was originally a smarter-than-average kid who had read too much Baukunin and Defoe but didn't quite grok it and turned him into (to paraphrase your words) an "overly-verbose douchelord waxing faux-philosophical."
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by Goldar » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:17 pm

Was there another yellow legion character called Telepath? Or was that an earlier form of Tellus?

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by Bladewind » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:02 pm

Hey Bats and Jab, do either of you remember the version of Comet from the Angel Supergirl's series - another "Earth Born Angel" of cold IIRC.
Had the ability to transform into this superpowered semi-equine being in power armor, that was actually a girl as a human.

Yes. Power over love and ice.

They even went full pegasaur with it.

*** shudders ***
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by Ares » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:45 pm

Goldar wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:17 pm
Was there another yellow legion character called Telepath? Or was that an earlier form of Tellus?
That character was from L.E.G.I.O.N., the weird idea someone had over at DC. Basically it was DC's version of what Marvel did with Guardians of the Galaxy, having an earlier Guardians team suddenly appear in the 616 setting despite the original team taking place in the far future. LEGION was even weirder in that it was basically an intergalactic private security force where they would charge planets a fee in order to protect them from harm. And it included the son of Brainiac/ancestor of Brainiac 5, Pre-Phantom Zone Valor/Mon-El, an ancestor of Blokk, a time-displaced Phantom Girl, and got into shenanigans with the Emerald Eye.

Telepath was this large, yellow, telepathic alien who was like this weird four-armed slug (one set of arms being massively muscular, the other being "normal"-sized), who was basically regarded as kind of a coward and spineless.

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by MacynSnow » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:21 pm

Bladewind wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:02 pm
Hey Bats and Jab, do either of you remember the version of Comet from the Angel Supergirl's series - another "Earth Born Angel" of cold IIRC.
Had the ability to transform into this superpowered semi-equine being in power armor, that was actually a girl as a human.

Yes. Power over love and ice.

They even went full pegasaur with it.

*** shudders ***
OH GOD IT BBBBBBBUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRNNNNNSSSSSSSS!
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by Ken » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:25 pm

I remember being very underwhelmed by Fabian Nicieza on the first thee issues of The New Warriors (vol. 1).
After his success co-authoring a murder mystery w/James Patterson, Marvel is now talking to Bill Clinton about doing some comics writing: a revival of Steve Gerber's swamp monster hero. They expect Bill Clinton's 'Man-Thing' will be very popular.

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Thunder! Brainiac 5! White Witch! Kinetix! Supergirl!)

Post by MacynSnow » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:01 pm

Ken wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:25 pm
I remember being very underwhelmed by Fabian Nicieza on the first thee issues of The New Warriors (vol. 1).
I actually like what Fabian did with them,especially in the team's first fight with Terrax.Night Thrasher knew they couldn't beat him,so they stalled untill he discorperated(at least i think that's what happened to him,i haven't read the issue in forever).I especially like how Thrasher got Nova's power back....It was highly original and worked. ;)

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