J-Mart OG: Closed for a new location!

[Batgirl III]

Only Ares could post a 15-paragraph rant about Captain Marvel in response to... a build of Donna Troy.

. . . . Batgirl started it.

Oh, yeah, like Jab’s has never wandered off on a tangent before. The man could give us 15-paragraphs on a specific Monster High doll’s shoes at the drop of a hat.

I mean, its not like I ever do that sort of thing. I'm busy with important work, like memorizing Bruce Wayne's address*.

*Wayne Manor, 1007 Mountain Drive, Gotham City, NJ 08270... What, you thought I was joking?

[Yojimbo]

At least Superman is getting his old costume back.

But Lois and Jon are disappearing. Because Bendis!

Donna Troy is a favorite of mine, too. The Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans was such a great book all around, and those versions of the characters left a big impression on me. I enjoy the current Titans book because I love that whole "ascended sidekick" type of character, and that's a whole team of them, but I am a little circumspect about what they're doing with Donna. I trust Abnett, though. The whole "evil Troy from the future" thing managed to define Donna pretty well, if only by contrast, and so long as she can continue to be the team powerhouse (although I hate the sword) and stop randomly hooking up with team members, I'll be more or less happy.

Anyway, nice build Thorpe!

[Ares]

At least Superman is getting his old costume back.

But Lois and Jon are disappearing. Because Bendis!

. . . . .God damnit Bendis . . .

[Gamebook]

Donna is one of my favorite's as well, though with me I know her best from the 1998-2003 Titans series. I know that the character originated as Wonder Woman as a girl so I've always preferred origin stories for her that make her Diana's sister (or magical clone), which explains why she has identical looks to her.

Amazons using swords seems to have become a thing since the Nu52, Diana is now always portrayed as using one to fight with. I actually like this as to me it makes sense for an Amazon warrior to wield one and serves to differentiate her more from Superman.

Donna though as a character I think is always going to suffer from being too similar to Wonder Woman. She shares this with Superboy, whose origin and nature as a character are also wildly inconsistent. The DC universe just doesn't need her all that much so there is little pressure to keep her around or not mess around with her origins and character.

[Yojimbo]

Amazons using swords seems to have become a thing since the Nu52, Diana is now always portrayed as using one to fight with. I actually like this as to me it makes sense for an Amazon warrior to wield one and serves to differentiate her more from Superman.

I've been researching Amazons for a thing I might write, and its actually the labrys, or double-sided axe that was iconic to the Amazons in mythology. I think that's why Perez drew Wonder Woman using one so often, because that dude did his research for sure. I mean, I think it's weird having Donna and Diana use lethal weapons in the first place, but I'd be happier if they were using something other than a sword. A double-sided axe is pretty badass, after all.

[Goldar]

I always !oved Donna, way back when she wore a juveile form of WW's costume, complete with teenage tunic top.

Later, Donna broke out into her own character, but like Ares stated, DC backsteps after making decent forward progress.

I loved Donna's former personality, the friendly, helpful yet fierce Donna who always wanted to help and to do the right thing.

By the way, where is her Silver Lasso of Persuasion? That looked so good on her hips!

[Scots Dragon]

At least Superman is getting his old costume back.

But Lois and Jon are disappearing. Because Bendis!

. . . . .God damnit Bendis . . .

I sincerely hope it just turns out to be 'problem of the story arc' rather than a permanent thing.

[Woodclaw]

Amazons using swords seems to have become a thing since the Nu52, Diana is now always portrayed as using one to fight with. I actually like this as to me it makes sense for an Amazon warrior to wield one and serves to differentiate her more from Superman.

I've been researching Amazons for a thing I might write, and its actually the labrys, or double-sided axe that was iconic to the Amazons in mythology. I think that's why Perez drew Wonder Woman using one so often, because that dude did his research for sure. I mean, I think it's weird having Donna and Diana use lethal weapons in the first place, but I'd be happier if they were using something other than a sword. A double-sided axe is pretty badass, after all.

One might point out that Hippolyta used a sword way before the New-52. The DC comics amazons are a bit of mash up of various elements, starting with the fact that they worship Greek gods. In mythology the amazons were meant to represent a foreign and utterly alien culture, something that was absolutely other from the mentality of the Greek city-states (especially after Athen became the prevalent cultural model). Hence the Amazons were ruled by women, whereas in late Greek culture women had a subservient role and so on.
The association between the labrys and the amazons is something that surfaced around 1983, thanks to a paper on Revue Archéologique that classified many of them as "representations of the female body" and/or "a matriarchial symbol". While there's more than a hint of truth to this consideration, it's mostly speculative. The labrys was a symbol associated to many early bronze age cultures, especially the Minoans, that associated a more important role to women.
As far as I know the weapon traditionally associated with the amazons is the bow, up to the point that some ancient writers said that they cut off their right breast to better shot the bow (the word "amazon" means literally "without (a-) breast (-mazos)"). Depending on the writer and period they were also known by other names (which got more and more misoginistic as time went by) and they were supposed to be of divine blood, to be precise they were daughters of Ares and Harmonia. Yep, they were the literal daughters of the gods of war and peace, wrap your head around that.
The general consensus is that the mythological amazons were probably inspired by the nomadic tribes of the early Scythians or Sarmatians that fought with bows on horseback and women fought alongside men in battle.

[Ares]

I'm still a bit iffy on Diana and Donna using weapons as well. On the one hand, it does give them a fairly unique flavor amongst the DC heroes, and it is reflective of their Amazonian warrior traditions.

I think my big issue is that it basically makes Diana and Donna's "default" more inherently bloodthirsty, since at leas with blunt weapons like a staff or even Thor's hammer, you can imagine characters "pulling" the attack to inflict something less lethal. A sword is something really hard to use non-lethally, and given Diana's level of strength, durability, speed and skill, it makes her willingness to use said weapon all the more telling. If she's going to carry those weapons, then at best, she should only break them out if she's fighting someone she feels she can't beat without them as a kind of last resort.

It can also have the unintended consequence of making Diana look weaker than she should be. That might seem unfair given Thor goes around wielding this big honking war-hammer, but at least the comics went out of their way to show that Thor was a near-equal of guys like the Hulk and on-par with other strong-men like Hercules. Diana rarely gets played up as being as strong or as tough as Superman and Captain Marvel, which actually fit, since her being a little under them brawn wise meant she had to use her comparable speed and superior skill to hold her own against them. Giving her a weapon could oddly make her both look less powerful (since she needs said weapons now) AND less skilled (since, again, she needs said weapons).

It also doesn't help that, unless those weapons are composed of uru and have unique magical weapons, they strike me as being pretty superfluous. Diana's vambraces are already suppose to be the equivalent of having miniature Capt. America shields strapped to each wrist, so her shield is basically pointless, especially since it's less durable than her arm guards. As for her sword, again, unless it's something on par with Thor's hammer, then it should basically be worthless. There's few things durable enough that she couldn't cut through them with a swipe of her hand, and anything durable enough to warrant such a thing would cause almost any sword she could wield to break on it.

If we were going to give her a new weapon beyond her lasso and armbands, I'd go with Yojimbo's suggestion of a double-bitted battle axe akin to the one Perez use to draw her with, one she keeps strapped to her back and only breaks out when things become desperate. Her breaking out the axe should be a Darksied/Doomsday level threat, but she always has it on her as a reminder of what she could do if not for her restraint. Give it a proper mythical origin, make it something worth adding to her mythos.

An axe with a couple of enchantments on it works better than the weird "bang her armbands together" supermove she has in movies. Though if were tweaked to "the bands can either reflect or absorb the energy of what they're hit with", with the ability to either release that energy in a few ways or even let her channel those energies into a punch, it'd work better.

[Gamebook]

In Kingdom Come it's mentioned that Diana's sword is magical and 'can carve the electrons off an atom', and all the other depictions seem to make it clear that any sword she carries is magic. Also swords are more prestigious and are an 'aristocratic' weapon so it fits for a princess. I've noticed that Diana is shown as using her lasso against any opponent she does not really want to hurt.

Blunt weapons like a hammer or staff are no less lethal than a bladed weapon. With their weight and leverage you can no more hit someone with them and expect them to not be seriously injured than a blow from a knife or sword. They don't slice but the effect of crushed flesh, shattered bones and caved-in skulls is just as dangerous. Against someone in armor they are actually more deadly. Historical weapons enthusiasts reckon that Leonardo has the best weapon out of all the ninja turtles.

[Batgirl III]

Herodotus actually has it that the Amazons and Scythians are separate tribes and that they would raid each other for slaves to mate with.

Blunt weapons like a hammer or staff are no less lethal than a bladed weapon. With their weight and leverage you can no more hit someone with them and expect them to not be seriously injured than a blow from a knife or sword. They don't slice but the effect of crushed flesh, shattered bones and caved-in skulls is just as dangerous. Against someone in armor they are actually more deadly. Historical weapons enthusiasts reckon that Leonardo has the best weapon out of all the ninja turtles.

Blunt weapons are less lethal in comics. So are boomerangs and bows... No, this isn’t realistic. But it is a genre staple.

Also, Leonardo uses paired ninjato. I think you meant (my turtle-boyfriend) Donatello.

[Woodclaw]

Herodotus actually has it that the Amazons and Scythians are separate tribes and that they would raid each other for slaves to mate with.

I must have crossed my references then.

[Yojimbo]

One might point out that Hippolyta used a sword way before the New-52. The DC comics amazons are a bit of mash up of various elements, starting with the fact that they worship Greek gods. In mythology the amazons were meant to represent a foreign and utterly alien culture, something that was absolutely other from the mentality of the Greek city-states (especially after Athen became the prevalent cultural model). Hence the Amazons were ruled by women, whereas in late Greek culture women had a subservient role and so on.

Oh yeah, of course. There were Amazons in Libya and around the Black Sea, and they were very definitely "the other." But heck, even folding them into the Greek world via the Olympian pantheon doesn't get around the fact that long swords like the ones that Donna and Diana use weren't a part of the armory during the Bronze Age. It's all pretend of course - the Amazons didn't exist, although the Scythians and Sarmations fielded women warriors - but still, a little verisimilitude goes a long way.

Although looking at (modern) art of Scythian warriors does show them wearing long blades in addition to wielding bows...

The association between the labrys and the amazons is something that surfaced around 1983, thanks to a paper on Revue Archéologique that classified many of them as "representations of the female body" and/or "a matriarchial symbol".

Ha! Well, I should know better than to give Wikipedia too much credence, I suppose.

While there's more than a hint of truth to this consideration, it's mostly speculative. The labrys was a symbol associated to many early bronze age cultures, especially the Minoans, that associated a more important role to women.

I think it shows up in Scythian art too, which, again, keeping in mind their association with the Amazon myth (as told by Greeks), still connects the weapon to them.

As far as I know the weapon traditionally associated with the amazons is the bow, up to the point that some ancient writers said that they cut off their right breast to better shot the bow (the word "amazon" means literally "without (a-) breast (-mazos)").

Maybe - there are other potential etymologies for the word, one of which is Iranian. But I got that off of Wikipedia too, so make of that what you will.

Definitely the bow was the main weapon, but the axe was apparently the primary for close combat (although if that just comes from 1983, maybe not). I was also pointed in the direction of an axe-backed hammer style weapon with a long haft, (the sagaris, another Scythian weapon) perfect for cavalry, which of course the mythological Amazons were.

[danelsan]

For one of the Wonder Woman expies I made over the years, the solution to weapons or not was a gift from Hephaestus in the form of a magical "quicksilver" tool/weapon that could change shape, a la She-Ra but more versatile: lasso, sword, shield, axe, staff, spear, pole, ladder, rope and hook, hammer or mace and so on. A magical multi-tool for both combat and utility. It had to be a continuous thing, though, so her partner handled the magic bow and arrows.

So, "this one needs to be knocked out" means fists, or a cestus for instance. But when there is an actual need for dealing death and destruction, the real weapons of war come out.

[Ares]

All this talk of weapons and lethality does remind me of one funny bit from a Wonder Woman comic. Some bad guy was fighting Diana abd giving her crap about not being Superman or Batman, listing things they had that she didn't.

So Diana asks "You know what else Superman and Batman have that I don't?"

She then picks up the largest thing available, hefting it over her head menacingly. "A code against killing."