Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

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Batgirl III
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by Batgirl III » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:46 pm

[C]rossing the Rio Grande is really not the biggest source of the problem-China is the biggest single source of non-Hispanice"undocumenteds" in the modern era, coming in and overstaying work visas.
And the biggest source of Hispanic illegal immigration is still the Mexican-American border... and the greatest numbers of illegal immigrants are Hispanic. Ergo...
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by FuzzyBoots » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:08 pm

Batgirl III wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:43 pm
If you don’t like it, the proper remedy is to protest to Congress to alter the statutes. Not to call for the abolishment of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement and certainly not to harass I.C.E. officers and agents in their off-duty lives. I.C.E. officers and agents have a tough job, maybe we can just let them enjoy talking about zombie-dragons and cybernetic elves on RPG.net in peace?
Yup. Fortunately, most people aren't on that sort of extreme. And ICE agents aren't even the right target here. That's like the people who spat on returning Vietnam soldiers instead of going after the politicians. And changing the TOS on an RPG site to encourage harassment...

The statistics on illegal immigration are interesting reading. It's been on the decline, including the number from our Southern borders. Overstaying visas is still only 44%, but it's gaining, possibly because border crossing had been declining for the last five years, faster than overall decline of illegal immigration.

More striking to me is how much of the illegal population has been here for a long time, 75% more than a decade resident, paying taxes and buying into the economy, and only 5% from the last five years.

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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by Batgirl III » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:46 pm

That’s why I’m in favor of making it easier to enter the country legally (either as a temporary resident “guest worker,” or as someone working towards naturalization). But at the same time, I also strongly support stepping up border security.

Remember, if a human can get across the border, so too can anything that a human being can carry. Smuggling is a very real problem that far too many people are blissfully unaware of. Even people who do think about it only seem to picture narcotics trafficking and tend to think of it only in terms of pot-smoking teens and homeless crackheads. Both of which are problems, sure, but it’s things like untaxed cigarettes and untaxed alcohol that kept me busiest in the USCG. We know for a fact that some of that money was filtered back to Al-Qaeda, ISIL, Hamas, and other unsavory sorts.

Secure the border and reform immigration. They don’t have to be either / or concepts.
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by FuzzyBoots » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:19 pm

I like the way you talk, Batgirl III.

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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by catsi563 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:17 am

to highlight the absurdity of how broken the law is right now

https://www.texastribune.org/2018/06/27 ... ssion=true
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by BriarThrone » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:28 pm

catsi563 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:17 am
to highlight the absurdity of how broken the law is right now

https://www.texastribune.org/2018/06/27 ... ssion=true
I'm pretty sure the author of this piece is actually illiterate. The word "unaccompanied" means that they weren't separated at the border. They were separated when the parents gave them a backpack and a general direction of travel and wished them the best of luck. The children aren't accompanied by their parents to the court hearing because the parents did not accompany their child across the rape-desert. We need to discourage parents from sending their children alone across the rape-desert. We do this by not rewarding that behavior. Like Hillary said, "Just because your child makes it across the border doesn't mean your child can stay."

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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by Batgirl III » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:42 pm

Also, its actually not uncommon for minor children to appear "alone" in court cases. For example, in contested divorce cases, parental rights and responsibilities cases, or other matters of family law the court will often have the child(ren) be a separate party from their parent(s), in these cases a guardian ad litem is appointed to represent the best interests of the child. In criminal cases where the accused is a minor, they also appear alone.
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by Ken » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:51 pm

Are there any statistics on how many illegal immigrants are working proper jobs with fake social security numbers (and therefore paying into a system they can never collect from) versus how many illegal immigrants are working in... shall we say... illegal trades (sweatshops, prostitution, smuggling) or even legal businesses who keep underpaid illegals to do the shitty jobs?
What kind of crap glass was used in the windows of Wayne Manor (post-Crisis) that an animal with a mass of less than 27 grams (i.e. weighs less than an ounce) could break through it?

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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by BriarThrone » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:24 pm

There's no statistics, because it's hard to collect real data on things that are by definition hidden from the authorities, at least partially. However, there are a few issues here.
Ken wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:51 pm
Are there any statistics on how many illegal immigrants are working proper jobs with fake social security numbers (and therefore paying into a system they can never collect from)
False premise. The point of identity theft is often to take advantage of said systems. There's also kind of a weird in-between state that I don't fully understand, because the state I'm currently living in had a referendum a few years ago to change the eligibility requirements for food stamps and cash welfare, because households with illegal immigrants in them only counted a percentage of the illegal's income - somehow? - and therefore received preferential treatment in the dispersal of those funds. No matter how you feel about the welfare state, this is obviously unjust. I'm not even sure how that vote went.
Ken wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:51 pm
versus how many illegal immigrants are working in... shall we say... illegal trades (sweatshops, prostitution, smuggling) or even legal businesses who keep underpaid illegals to do the shitty jobs?
This is the other side of the argument. People in favor of ignoring the illegal immigration situation want to believe they're the compassionate ones. When I used to live in Oklahoma, it was common for certain companies that operated unsafely to hire illegals using false SSIDs, and paid them well, but put them in extremely unsafe working conditions, and when a worker died, would simply leave the body in the desert somewhere. Seen it myself. In the darkest, most cynical reaches of my heart, it warms me to know that the pro-illegal camp is working to enrich Big Oil and the megacorps that they hate so much at the expense of the very people they're "trying to help." But the rest of me is sickened and outraged, because this is terrible and we could have stopped untold suffering if we'd secured the border when Reagan demanded it, and Congress undermined him. Or when Clinton promised it. Or when W promised it. Or when Obama and Clinton both campaigned on strong borders.

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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by FuzzyBoots » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:27 pm

Ken wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:51 pm
Are there any statistics on how many illegal immigrants are working proper jobs with fake social security numbers (and therefore paying into a system they can never collect from) versus how many illegal immigrants are working in... shall we say... illegal trades (sweatshops, prostitution, smuggling) or even legal businesses who keep underpaid illegals to do the shitty jobs?
There are although I'd add the caveat that, much like any statistic involving trying to track people who don't necessarily want to be tracked, it involves some sampling and extrapolation. In 2010, the estimate is that 3.1 million immigrants contributed $12 billion in payroll taxes. That's about a third of the number extrapolated in the country at that time. I haven't found any statistics on where the others are employed, but it's likely that, as you say, many of them are being exploited by criminals and large businesses (but, as Mark Twain said, I repeat myself :) ). Just to clarify, the actual figure is that they bring in $13 billion, but it's estimated that they take advantage of $1 billion in services.

Admittedly, that suggests that making all of these workers legit could hurt Social Security, which has been getting a surplus at a time when population is declining and we have fewer people contributing to the system and more people drawing from it. But, as BriarThorne keeps pointing out, that's because we have a broken system, which this "zero tolerance" policy is causing to become more and more evident because it's breaking it faster.

Side note, per Batgirl III's comment about mutiny by following the rules, and using that to reform society, I just can't quite credit that to this administration. They have not shown evidence of that sort of competence, although I'm willing to listen to arguments to the contrary. It would be nice to think that decisions are being made on more than just childish petulance sometimes. :-/

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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by Batgirl III » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:27 pm

Ken wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:51 pm
Are there any statistics on how many illegal immigrants are working proper jobs with fake social security numbers (and therefore paying into a system they can never collect from) versus how many illegal immigrants are working in... shall we say... illegal trades (sweatshops, prostitution, smuggling) or even legal businesses who keep underpaid illegals to do the shitty jobs?
Collecting accurate official statistics on people who are, by definition, doing their best to avoiding notice by officials is... well, kinda tricky. Recent estimates of the illegal immigrant population from the Center for Migration Studies (CMS) show 10.8 million illegal immigrants living in the United States in 2016. CMS's 2013 estimate was 11 million, so not a significantly different estimate. CMS estimates are based in part on the American Community Survey (ACS) collected by the U.S. Census Bureau, the margin of error is about ±100,000 for a population of this size.

Here's a few quick bullet-points, but feel free to check my source and drill down into the data if you want.
  • Employement rants for illegal immigrants compared to legal resident aliens and citizens tend to be similar — 70 percent of both (ages 18 to 65) are employed.
  • Illegal immigrants have low levels of formal education. Of adult illegal immigrants (ages 25 to 65), 28 percent have not completed high school, compared to 8 percent of legal residents and citizens. The share of illegal immigrants (25 to 65) with at least a bachelor's degree is only slightly lower that legal residents and citizens: 30 percent vs. 32 percent.
  • Despite similar rates of work, because a larger share of adult illegal immigrants arrive with little education, illegal immigrants are significantly more likely to work low-wage jobs, live in poverty, lack health insurance, use welfare, and have lower rates of home ownership.
  • 42 percent of illegal immigrant-headed households used at least one welfare program (primarily SNAP food assistance and Medicaid), compared to 27 percent for legal residents and citizens. Both figures represent an undercount. If adjusted for undercount based on other Census Bureau data, the rate would be 57 percent for illegal immigrants and 34 percent for legal residents and citizens.
  • The lower socioeconomic status of illegal immigrants is not due to their being mostly recent arrivals. The average immigrant in 2016 had lived in the United States for 20+ years.
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by Batgirl III » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:33 pm

Side note, per Batgirl III's comment about mutiny by following the rules, and using that to reform society, I just can't quite credit that to this administration. They have not shown evidence of that sort of competence, although I'm willing to listen to arguments to the contrary. It would be nice to think that decisions are being made on more than just childish petulance sometimes. :-/
Just a quick rejoinder here, otherwise we'll go massively off topic. But the trick to understanding Pres. Trump is to ignore his Twitter feed and "off the cuff" remarks. Focus on the actual concrete actions he and his administration take. Don't be deceived by his bombast and braggadocio.

It's all political prestidigitation. Don't watch the magician's hand that he's waving around on top of the table, watch the other hand. That's the one palming the the cards.
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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by BriarThrone » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:44 pm

Going back to the topic of discretion and law enforcement:

Justice is impartial. That's an important aspect of the philosophy - one set of laws for everyone. No one is above the law, and who you are does not matter before the law. Now, true justice is an ideal, and a practical impossibility, but we should be striving for it as best we can, because every time we have to rely on someone's discretion to decide if or how to enforce the law, that's an injustice. Someone is getting punished more than others. Someone is getting off light where someone else, for whatever reason, is punished to the fullest extent of the law, and how could that ever be made fair?

Every time someone squawks about inequality or persecution or all the other buzzwords that the media tries to use to claim someone's being institutionally oppressed, this is what they're talking about - they're complaining about this. But in this specific instance, they're arguing for more discretion in the hands of law enforcement, because they figure they can bully law enforcement into compliance by calling them racists. As a result, they get what they want - an underclass of socialists who will support the perpetual growth of state power and the crushing of the individual, while enriching the megacorps who supply the lavish lifestyles of the socialist politicians. Everyone wins, except the American working class.

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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by BriarThrone » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:50 pm

FuzzyBoots wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:27 pm
Admittedly, that suggests that making all of these workers legit could hurt Social Security, which has been getting a surplus at a time when population is declining and we have fewer people contributing to the system and more people drawing from it. But, as BriarThorne keeps pointing out, that's because we have a broken system, which this "zero tolerance" policy is causing to become more and more evident because it's breaking it faster.
The absence before now of a "zero tolerance" policy is breaking it faster. How the hell would this even work? And what surplus? Social Security isn't even the system we're talking about, but it's projected to be bankrupt before 2030, last I heard, because it's a poorly designed program that wasn't even that great under the conditions under which it was designed, which was for a much shorter life expectancy, a much smaller aging population to draw from it, and a proportionately much larger payer base of young workers. Which illegal immigration doesn't help with, because they're a net loss to the budget in every way, with identity theft specifically being a relevant issue here.

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Re: Regarding ICE, the Border Patrol and Illegal Immigration

Post by FuzzyBoots » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:59 pm

Batgirl III wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:33 pm
Just a quick rejoinder here, otherwise we'll go massively off topic. But the trick to understanding Pres. Trump is to ignore his Twitter feed and "off the cuff" remarks. Focus on the actual concrete actions he and his administration take. Don't be deceived by his bombast and braggadocio.

It's all political prestidigitation. Don't watch the magician's hand that he's waving around on top of the table, watch the other hand. That's the one palming the the cards.
I won't take things further on that because, as you said, it could derail things, but I just can't quite interpret the current situation as being a "crazy as a fox" kind of situation. Maybe history will prove otherwise, but certainly, his past history doesn't seem to jibe with that level of cleverness. Admittedly, he does have some sharp people working for him. Frankly, I half expect proceedings to go forward and Pence to wind up finishing his term and getting elected to another one.
BriarThrone wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:44 pm
Justice is impartial. That's an important aspect of the philosophy - one set of laws for everyone. No one is above the law, and who you are does not matter before the law. Now, true justice is an ideal, and a practical impossibility, but we should be striving for it as best we can, because every time we have to rely on someone's discretion to decide if or how to enforce the law, that's an injustice. Someone is getting punished more than others. Someone is getting off light where someone else, for whatever reason, is punished to the fullest extent of the law, and how could that ever be made fair?
Yup. In an ideal system, justice would indeed be objective and impartial. However, there has never been a legal system that has reached that ideal, and it's probably a good thing, because it helps prevent injustices by people being able to use their best judgment. Which yes, does require us to trust humans, which historically doesn't tend to work out well. But, it's like that old joke about Democracy is the worst possible system, but it's better than anything else we've come up with yet.
BriarThrone wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:50 pm
The absence before now of a "zero tolerance" policy is breaking it faster. How the hell would this even work? And what surplus? Social Security isn't even the system we're talking about, but it's projected to be bankrupt before 2030, last I heard, because it's a poorly designed program that wasn't even that great under the conditions under which it was designed, which was for a much shorter life expectancy, a much smaller aging population to draw from it, and a proportionately much larger payer base of young workers. Which illegal immigration doesn't help with, because they're a net loss to the budget in every way, with identity theft specifically being a relevant issue here.
The question was raised of how much illegal immigrants contribute to the system versus what they get out of it. I was pointing out that they have a net positive contribution, which could change if we either eliminated those immigrants or gave them rights.

Honestly, I feel like we're arguing in circles here. Short of appealing to statistics, which you claim don't exist, we're just arguing on the basis of passion.

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