Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

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Chris Brady
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Re: Thought Experiment: You're put in charge of the next company wide reboot. What do you do?

Post by Chris Brady » Sat May 19, 2018 1:39 am

Scots Dragon wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:26 pm
Chris Brady wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:01 pm
Ms. Marvel was a fluke, because she was ALWAYS Muslim propaganda, and she always got the emotional validation that the Tumblr crowd seems to love to engage in. She managed to fool people, but not for long, which is why the books got cancelled.
Uh. There's so much wrong to unpack there. 'Muslim propaganda'? Really?
Yes, actually. In her book, there's no down side to being Muslim. In fact, she has a Jewish friend (which is you know anything about the Middle East, Muslims HATE the Jews, they honestly believe that Hitler did not go far enough. They LOVE him over there, I have family that lived in several countries in the Middle East. It's a little scary over there.) Everyone loves her. All her villains are white people, typically blond. And no Muslim is portrayed as terrorists (which a lot of the violence around the world has been for the last 30 years. And not just Muslim, but most of it has been) or even villains.

I'm sorry, but Ms. Marvel is propaganda. Has been since it's first issue.
Scots Dragon wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:26 pm
Also you do know that Ms. Marvel is not one of the recent titles that has been cancelled, don't you? It's still ongoing and is in the latest solicitations going at least as far as July, 'cause the August solicitationss haven't come in yet.
Sorry, Marvel has 'failed upwards' so many writers and artists books that I'm having a hard time remembering which comics are still active or being rebooted. Again.

But this is all a distraction to my main point: Comics have ALWAYS been diverse. Since Day One, Marvel's first hero was a sea based 'alien' (Namor) trying to be a man and hero. And since then, we've had Black heroes, even women, (Storm, a North African native, led one of the most popular comic book teams, often selling in the quarter million range monthly, the bubbly Wasp was the leader of the Avengers as well), we've had Gay heroes (Alpha Flight's Northstar is. And if you want Lesbian Action? DC got you covered with Rene Montoya and Batwoman, whose name I forget) all of which have been around LONG before this regressive BS showed up 4 years ago.

Make GOOD characters, human characters, with flaws, foibles, habits and give them interesting things to do, have them fail and then succeed, and your audience will come to you. There's a reason that Spiderman and Black Panther films did so well, despite not being very progressive. The characters were interesting, they failed and were wrong, but they also succeeded when they had to.
Last edited by Chris Brady on Sat May 19, 2018 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Scots Dragon
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Re: Thought Experiment: You're put in charge of the next company wide reboot. What do you do?

Post by Scots Dragon » Sat May 19, 2018 1:49 am

Chris Brady wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:39 am
Yes, actually. In her book, there's no down side to being Muslim. In fact, she has a Jewish friend (which is you know anything about the Middle East, Muslims HATE the Jews, they honestly believe that Hitler did not go far enough. They LOVE him over there, I have family that lived in several countries in the Middle East. It's a little scary over there.) Everyone loves her. All her villains are white people, typically blond. And no Muslim is portrayed as terrorists (which a lot of the violence around the world has been for the last 30 years. And not just Muslim, but most of it has been.)

I'm sorry, but Ms. Marvel is propaganda. Has been since it's first issue.
Those are intensely bigoted statements and generalisations of over a billion people, many of whom do not in fact live in the Middle East.

Case in point, Kamala Khan's family is also not from the Middle East, they're South Asian. But then, I do not expect a bigot to have ever once checked his goddamn geography.
Formerly known as Narsil on the ATT and Ronin Army forums.

Chris Brady
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Re: Thought Experiment: You're put in charge of the next company wide reboot. What do you do?

Post by Chris Brady » Sat May 19, 2018 1:56 am

Scots Dragon wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:49 am
Chris Brady wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:39 am
Yes, actually. In her book, there's no down side to being Muslim. In fact, she has a Jewish friend (which is you know anything about the Middle East, Muslims HATE the Jews, they honestly believe that Hitler did not go far enough. They LOVE him over there, I have family that lived in several countries in the Middle East. It's a little scary over there.) Everyone loves her. All her villains are white people, typically blond. And no Muslim is portrayed as terrorists (which a lot of the violence around the world has been for the last 30 years. And not just Muslim, but most of it has been.)

I'm sorry, but Ms. Marvel is propaganda. Has been since it's first issue.
Those are intensely bigoted statements and generalisations of over a billion people, many of whom do not in fact live in the Middle East.

Case in point, Kamala Khan's family is also not from the Middle East, they're South Asian. But then, I do not expect a bigot to have ever once checked his goddamn geography.
Actually, Pakistan is considered Middle East. You might want to check your atlas first before accusing me of anything. It's between Iran and India and just under Afghanistan.

I don't care what you call me, facts are facts. Truth will not change because you want it to.

Muslim based violence has been occurring since the Middle Ages and hasn't stopped unlike most other religious based incidents. And we're supposed to ignore this fact, because it hurts your feelings and makes you uncomfortable? No. I will not be bullied by titles and name calling.

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Scots Dragon
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Re: Thought Experiment: You're put in charge of the next company wide reboot. What do you do?

Post by Scots Dragon » Sat May 19, 2018 2:02 am

Chris Brady wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:56 am
Muslim based violence has been occurring since the Middle Ages and hasn't stopped unlike most other religious based incidents. And we're supposed to ignore this fact, because it hurts your feelings and makes you uncomfortable? No. I will not be bullied by titles and name calling.
As someone who has living relatives who have experienced violence on both sides of a certain sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland, a conflict that is threatening to heat up once again, I hope you'll forgive my cordial disagreement towards your view of the subject.
Formerly known as Narsil on the ATT and Ronin Army forums.

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Re: Thought Experiment: You're put in charge of the next company wide reboot. What do you do?

Post by Davies » Sat May 19, 2018 2:06 am

Chris Brady wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:56 am
Truth will not change because you want it to.
No, it won't. Like the truth that you reason to offer excuses for your hatred, which would exist without them.

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Re: Thought Experiment: You're put in charge of the next company wide reboot. What do you do?

Post by MacynSnow » Sat May 19, 2018 2:14 am

I'm going to try and play ref herein and ask you guy's to ease up a bit....
Scots,you might want to ease a bit on some of your statements,as they can be read ALOT of different ways.Thank for helping ahead of time! :D

Chris,take a slow breath before you explode.Everyone has a right to their opinions(no matter if you might think it' wrong),especially herein.Thanks for the help ahead of time! :D

Now that that may be settled,here's MY opinion on all this:both Marvel and DC fouled up on what they were trying to do....

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Batgirl III
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Re: Thought Experiment: You're put in charge of the next company wide reboot. What do you do?

Post by Batgirl III » Sat May 19, 2018 2:25 am

Edit: I'm nuking my whole comment. I was writing it while other people in this tread went off on a tangent that got Ares to invoke his little used Mod Voice. I want to avoid even the hint of a spec of an iota of an inkling of any appearance that I was trying to continue the argument.
Last edited by Batgirl III on Sat May 19, 2018 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by Ares » Sat May 19, 2018 2:31 am

Here you go. If you want to debate Muslim culture, here's a place for it. As long as you don't insult each other, have a blast.

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Ares
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Re: Thought Experiment: You're put in charge of the next company wide reboot. What do you do?

Post by Ares » Sat May 19, 2018 2:40 am

Batgirl III wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 2:25 am
Edit: I'm nuking my whole comment. I was writing it while other people in this tread went off on a tangent that got Ares to invoke his little used Mod Voice. I want to avoid even the hint of a spec of an iota of an inkling of any appearance that I was trying to continue the argument.
No, by all means, debate away. I've got no problem with civil debate on these forums. Its just that the thread it was happening in was not the place for it. Now you have a place for it. Problem solved.

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Batgirl III
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Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by Batgirl III » Sat May 19, 2018 2:51 am

It’s not a debate I want to have. At least, not here. I deal with this enough in my professional life (and have, in one way or another, to one degree or another) since I was eighteen... I come here to talk about Dr. Doom and Godzilla.
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Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by Jabroniville » Sat May 19, 2018 7:04 am

A lot of the Middle East and Islam is a complete mess, for a lot of reasons. Some countries are much better than others, while others are much worse. And the West making some arbitrarily their allies and focusing on some as enemies is quite strange (Saudi Arabian people financed much of 9/11, for example, but that nation's an ally?). The Muslim world used to be the apex of civilization, but a lot of the wrong leaders taking over slowly downgraded them- this benefited the West in some ways, as the Middle East as a whole was a thorn in the side of European nations for centuries (the Persians invaded Greece; the Parthians were one of the only nations to routinely hold off the advances of Rome; Islamic armies invaded and took out the last remnants of the Holy Roman Empire long after the fall of the original Rome).

There's a ton of accepted hatred of Jews and Israel in a lot of that culture, and I think a bit too much "apologist" behavior on the part of a lot of Westerners over some unacceptable practices. I've seen people who would flip their shit over "offensive" statements from American Caucasians get incredibly defensive of Middle Eastern countries, some of which have "Homosexuality is a capital crime" is WRITTEN INTO LAW. It's like their "I must defend all minorities because I am SUPER-WOKE, Y'ALL!" confuses their "Outrage-dar". Bill Maher pointed out this kind of nonsense when the Duck Dynasty guys acted like the hillbillies they're already considered about gay people, but defend Muslims against any detractors.

THAT SAID, there are plenty of Muslims who are normal, regular people. Ones who are religious without being SUPER NUTJOBS. Yes, religious violence is way, WAY too common among Muslims, far beyond that of any other religion in terms of volume and capacity for bloodshed. But there ARE normal people in there. I might be the only one here with an actual Muslim friend, but I assure you, the most negative aspects of her is that she's a young college student, so she's an annoying-ass party girl who tries to make us all dance at weddings.

This is why I was so irked by the Kamala Khan comments: She's gotta be Anti-Jewish because she's Muslim? I consider that ridiculous- she's an AMERICAN, and grew up an American teenager. Her family actually FLED their home country due to violence. In fact, the whole "child of immigrants" thing is rather central to the character, as she rubs up against her parents' old customs. But really, Kamala is a "Character Who Is Muslim", not "A Muslim Character", and that makes all the difference with her.

The issue here is that there seems to be a theory that "Muslim = Automatically These Things", which is incorrect. Even if those opinions are held by the VAST MAJORITY (and yeah, I wouldn't doubt a majority of Muslims have a negative view of Jews; the majority of the world has a negative view of ISLAM, too), they're not 100%. Particularly in the case of a SUPER-HERO, who is almost by definition supposed to be a paragon and a better person than the average person (even in Marvel, where many of the heroes are nutty).

I dunno, acting like "Ms. Marvel MUST be like _____, because she's MUSLIM!" is nonsense to me.

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Batgirl III
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Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by Batgirl III » Sat May 19, 2018 7:18 am

In my experience, the average Muslim pretty much just wants to go to work, make an honest buck, and go home to the wife and kids. Just like the average Catholic, Presbyterian, Sikh, and Atheist.

Yes, there are some seriously twisted evil bastards out there — I’ve been in firefights with them — and yes they are doing it in the name of their religion. But it’s not typical.
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Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by Woodclaw » Sat May 19, 2018 10:40 am

Batgirl III wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 7:18 am
In my experience, the average Muslim pretty much just wants to go to work, make an honest buck, and go home to the wife and kids. Just like the average Catholic, Presbyterian, Sikh, and Atheist.

Yes, there are some seriously twisted evil bastards out there — I’ve been in firefights with them — and yes they are doing it in the name of their religion. But it’s not typical.
Many years ago (around 2004) I watched a big debate between Adel Smith (the former leader of the Italian Muslim community) and Massimo Cacciari (the former mayor of Venice and notorious atheist). At the time Smith was trying to ride on the "hate train" and was notorious for tossing a crucifix out of a window while he was in a hospital, injuring another patient, for being a negationist and a general purpose asshole. After an our of shouting and cursing from Smith, Mr. Cacciari simply said: "You're doing a great diservice to your own community, by fuelling the arguments of all those people that think that there will never be any chance of a peaceful coexistence. As an atheist and a philosopher I strive not to judge people based on their religious belief, but you, sir, made me sick."
"You're right. Sorry. Holy shit," I breathed, "heckhounds.”

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BriarThrone
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Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by BriarThrone » Sat May 19, 2018 5:11 pm

According to PEW survey data, 88% of Muslims worldwide view homosexuality as immoral, and over 50% support the use of religiously motivated violence. Not in the Middle East - worldwide. Most of them would not commit this violence, but mathematically >half of them celebrate it. So yes, "not all," but a whole hell of a lot.

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Batgirl III
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Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by Batgirl III » Sat May 19, 2018 5:30 pm

Similar surveys show that a significant plurality of Muslims currently living in the United Kingdom think that Islamic canon law, sharia, should be added to or replace English common law and U.K. statutory law. Similar surveys yield similar results in other European states, although it remains a minority opinion in the U.S. and Canada...

This is definitely an area of concern for me, personally and professionally.
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