Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

If you need to argue some point, do it here.
greycrusader
Posts: 246
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:25 pm

Re: Thought Experiment: You're put in charge of the next company wide reboot. What do you do?

Post by greycrusader » Sun May 20, 2018 3:14 am

Davies wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 2:06 am
Chris Brady wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:56 am
Truth will not change because you want it to.
No, it won't. Like the truth that you reason to offer excuses for your hatred, which would exist without them.
Correct. I usually avoid topics like this on the boards, but the assumption "ALL fill-in-the-blank have such and such negative traits, because they are fill-in-the-blank" is the damn definition of bigotry.

Oh, and Pakistan is in South Asia; the only categorization of the former Indian territory as "Middle-Eastern" came during the second Bush administration, who will scarcely go down for their brilliant foreign policy. I had a close friend who was a Pakistani Muslim way back in my college days, and he was one of the most fun-loving, easy-going guys I've ever met, getting along with just about everyone, INCLUDING the Indian and Jewish kids.

BTW: Kamala Khan's whole shtick is emulating her role-model, the white, blond, blue-eyed, ex-American air force officer Carol Danvers, AKA Captain Marvel; yeah, sounds like Caucasians are really cast as the villains in that title, huh? Look, I'm not arguing for a moment Islamic fundamentalism and the extremist movements spawned by those beliefs aren't dangerous, both to those of other faiths and to other Muslims. And I loathe theocratic governments on principle, as those are dictatorships based on whim and superstition. But judging individuals by the worst people in their communities is not justifiable, logically or morally.

BriarThrone
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by BriarThrone » Sun May 20, 2018 4:37 am

greycrusader wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 3:14 am
Correct. I usually avoid topics like this on the boards, but the assumption "ALL fill-in-the-blank have such and such negative traits, because they are fill-in-the-blank" is the damn definition of bigotry.
Let me ask you something. What would you say about generalizing in such a way about Nazis? Would you be okay with that? I bet you would. Most people are. Now, if you give it a moment's thought, you understand that the National Socialist Party deceived a lot of people in its rise to power, and didn't run on anti-Semitism and concentration camps... but after it had become clear that this was what was going on, every member of the NSP was to some degree supporting these monstrous actions, just by their endorsement of the party. We're not really comfortable with a phrase like "not one of the bad Nazis."

Still with me?

Now, tell me: what is the difference between Muslims and Nazis?

Islam is not a race. It's a set of ideas. White, black, Asian, whatever, you can become Muslim with one relatively simple declaration. It is, in fact, more a political ideology than it is a religion, as most of it revolves around laws and governance. In actual fact, it is an oligo-fascist political ideology - meaning that it mandates a fascist state controlled by the clergy. Like most political ideologies, if you change your mind, you can forswear it at any time. (Except that in the case of Islam, this is punishable by death.)

Muslims hold a special hatred for Jews, and in Muslim-majority countries, Jews are the subject of actual, for-real systematic oppression. Where there is an appreciable Christian minority, so are they - see Coptic Christians in Egypt, one of the more "enlightened" Muslim countries, as an example. They are also rather notoriously anti-gay, with homosexuality carrying a formal death sentence in most Muslim-majority countries, and anti-gay violence being permitted by law enforcement in the rest. They also don't recognize transsexuality, categorizing it as homosexuality, with the possible addition of heresy - the implication that "God made a mistake" isn't going to be looked at kindly.

According to Islam, any sin is permissible, as long as it is conducted with the aim of advancing the caliphate's rule over the world. Any transgression against a non-Muslim is not only permitted, but actually approved of.

There are a lot more things I could say about Islam. I've barely scratched the surface, but that covers the relevant stuff.

Now, I've been talking about Islam. What about Muslims - the people who identify as its believers and practitioners? Are there good and decent Muslims? Well, sure. Very, very many Muslims, especially the poor, around the world are ignorant of a great deal of their faith, just like many "Christians" have never read the Bible, and practice just enough to get through their day-to-day lives. A great deal more say "Yes, I'm a Muslim" because they've already said it once, and therefore a different answer will get them killed. A lot of them in the West are aware of the rather barbaric nature of their faith, but don't care, cherry-picking the bits that work for them and remaining confident that no one will hold them to account on the rest, because the threat of enforcement is so very far away. Thing is, though, that most educated Muslims - especially most religious leaders - view these Muslims as failures, in need of education and discipline. So everything that you're saying about #NotAll? REALLY pisses off the clergy.

I'd like to know what your position is on Western Muslims who celebrated on 9/11, incidentally. According to the survey data, the percentage is higher than you'd think.
greycrusader wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 3:14 am
Oh, and Pakistan is in Southeast Asia; the only categorization of the former Indian territory as "Middle-Eastern" came during the second Bush administration, who will scarcely go down for their brilliant foreign policy.
Oh, absolutely. The Bushism that pisses me off the most? "Islam is a religion of peace." Did you know he coined that one? Memetic virus. The Muslims, on the other hand, say "The Faith of Mohammed is a Faith of the Sword."
greycrusader wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 3:14 am
I had a close friend who was a Pakistani Muslim way back in my college days, and he was one of the most fun-loving, easy-going guys I've ever met, getting along with just about everyone, INCLUDING the Indian and Jewish kids.
Hey, that's swell. What did his mosque think of that? I ask because many, many Western mosques are strictly opposed to that kind of thing. And if he didn't go to the mosque enough to really care... then maybe his distance from Islam is what made him cool? Like Jab's example of the Muslim party girl who danced at weddings - pretty sure she didn't talk about any of that at the mosque. I've never heard of a single mosque who was okay with that. If your behavior is in constant defiance of your religion, does that still count? I mean, Islam doesn't really have the whole "absolved from sin" element that Christianity does, without real sacrifice for the cause of the advancement of the caliphate. It sounds like a case of people who call themselves Muslim without actually practicing. Which I'm cool with, though I'm anxious about what will happen with these people as Muslim population density rises and their ability to enforce sharia grows. Case studies show that historically, in those situations, the non-practicing Muslims grow quickly more orthodox. Which is bad.
greycrusader wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 3:14 am
BTW: Kamala Khan's whole shtick is emulating her role-model, the white, blond, blue-eyed, ex-American air force officer Carol Danvers, AKA Captain Marvel; yeah, sounds like Caucasians are really cast as the villains in that title, huh?
You mean the one that she eventually correctly called out for in essence declaring herself the authoritarian overlord of Earth? That not-a-villain? Because I do believe that the book sort of implied that Kamala's reverence for a blond, blue-eyed fascist was a mistake.

User avatar
Davies
Posts: 1183
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by Davies » Sun May 20, 2018 5:06 am

BriarThrone wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 4:37 am
Now, tell me: what is the difference between Muslims and Nazis?
Funny thing about people who ask that question - they fail to grasp that they are offering no solution to the supposed problem that they present, other than an eternal war with Islam. And the only people who want an eternal war are arms dealers and mercenaries. Which are you?

Wait, let me guess, you don't want an eternal war, you want one that ends in the victory of the West. You are no different in your time from those who argued for the extinction of the American Indian, for the eternal enslavement of the Irish, for the perpetual second class citizenship of Blacks, and every other time a bigot has used statistics to justify their bigotry. I don't care what a Muslim has done to you personally, I don't care what they have done to your family or friends, you are wrong and you will always be wrong.
BriarThrone wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 4:37 am
greycrusader wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 3:14 am
BTW: Kamala Khan's whole shtick is emulating her role-model, the white, blond, blue-eyed, ex-American air force officer Carol Danvers, AKA Captain Marvel; yeah, sounds like Caucasians are really cast as the villains in that title, huh?
You mean the one that she eventually correctly called out for in essence declaring herself the authoritarian overlord of Earth? That not-a-villain? Because I do believe that the book sort of implied that Kamala's reverence for a blond, blue-eyed fascist was a mistake.
Except that Carol and Kamala made up in a more recent issue than you've read, assuming you read.

BriarThrone
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by BriarThrone » Sun May 20, 2018 5:28 am

Davies wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 5:06 am
Funny thing about people who ask that question - they fail to grasp that they are offering no solution to the supposed problem that they present, other than an eternal war with Islam. And the only people who want an eternal war are arms dealers and mercenaries. Which are you?

Wait, let me guess, you don't want an eternal war, you want one that ends in the victory of the West. You are no different in your time from those who argued for the extinction of the American Indian, for the eternal enslavement of the Irish, for the perpetual second class citizenship of Blacks, and every other time a bigot has used statistics to justify their bigotry. I don't care what a Muslim has done to you personally, I don't care what they have done to your family or friends, you are wrong and you will always be wrong.
So, I can put you down as pro-fascist, then? You are telling me I am wrong for being opposed to a fascist ideology that oppresses minorities, women, and the poor? Good to know.

EDIT: I like how you jumped from the fact that I'm not cool with oppressive fascist ideologies to wanting war or genocide. Fuck you very much. We don't NEED to go to war with them. We just have to stop the apologetics. We have to recognize it for what it is and stop fostering it. We stop teaching lies about how wonderful and tolerant Islam is in school. We demand that the police treat Muslims the same as they do everybody else and stop letting the accusation of "racism" stay their hand. We stop protecting international organizations devoted to anti-Semitism and the advancement of the caliphate. Stop silencing ex-Muslims and critics. Stop overthrowing secular governments in the Middle East, maybe. Support revolutionary movements against oppressive religious governments. Islam is stagnant, and will die on its own if we just let it.
Davies wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 5:06 am
Except that Carol and Kamala made up in a more recent issue than you've read, assuming you read.
Because they wrote themselves into a corner. There's a Captain Marvel movie coming out where she's the hero, but uh oh! We just wrote Carol as an authoritarian dictator! Better brush that under the rug real quick! "Sure, you used me as part of your secret police force to imprison the innocent without trial, and people I care about got hurt as a consequence, but eh, what the hell, I forgive you! It's been a couple months already!" How 'bout that Marvel writing and editing crew, eh?
Last edited by BriarThrone on Sun May 20, 2018 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Davies
Posts: 1183
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by Davies » Sun May 20, 2018 5:38 am

BriarThrone wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 5:28 am

So, I can put you down as pro-fascist, then? You are telling me I am wrong for being opposed to a fascist ideology that oppresses minorities, women, and the poor? Good to know.
Put me down as whatever you please. You aren't opposed to an ideology, you're opposed to a people, whatever you tell yourself.

Ken
Posts: 1996
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:40 pm
Location: DeKamore, Madiganistan

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by Ken » Sun May 20, 2018 5:40 am

Fascist ideologies do promote peace, and if peace at any cost is one's goal, then, sure.

Me? I have no fondness for war. And I hope if I'm ever asked to be a martyr for my faith, I'm up to the task. But as a general rule, I really don't like the idea of being murdered just because in a little under ten hours, I'll be going to Mass.
Does a Winnie poo in the 100-acre wood?

BriarThrone
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by BriarThrone » Sun May 20, 2018 5:45 am

Davies wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 5:38 am
BriarThrone wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 5:28 am

So, I can put you down as pro-fascist, then? You are telling me I am wrong for being opposed to a fascist ideology that oppresses minorities, women, and the poor? Good to know.
Put me down as whatever you please. You aren't opposed to an ideology, you're opposed to a people, whatever you tell yourself.
I'm so glad you're here to tell me what I think. You're more and more fascist by the moment, huh? I mean, I've had some great conversations with ex-Muslims who fled their home countries to keep themselves and their families safe, and I count those as some of the finest people I've ever met, but apparently I'm racist against them?

User avatar
Davies
Posts: 1183
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by Davies » Sun May 20, 2018 5:51 am

BriarThrone wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 5:45 am
apparently I'm racist against them?
No, but you are a bigot all the same, because you demand that others change to suit your ideals, rather than accepting others despite their difference. Do whatever you want. I'm done talking to you.

BriarThrone
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by BriarThrone » Sun May 20, 2018 6:00 am

Davies wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 5:51 am
No, but you are a bigot all the same, because you demand that others change to suit your ideals, rather than accepting others despite their difference. Do whatever you want. I'm done talking to you.
I dislike Hitler's political philosophy. I think that the people he inspired and led with that political philosophy were awful people who did awful things. These statements are EXACTLY the same as what I said about Islam, only in less detail. I'm talking about people who believe in abhorrent things, and I want them to believe other things instead. There is NO DIFFERENCE between defending Islam and defending Nazis. There are even BOTH FASCIST IDEOLOGIES. I will oppose both ideologies wherever I can. I will oppose their defenders. And I will protect other people from them. Doing so doesn't make me a bigot, you fucking filth. People like you are undermining all that is good about humanity.

User avatar
Batgirl III
Posts: 2429
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by Batgirl III » Sun May 20, 2018 6:21 am

I think you’re being overly broad in characterizing all of Islam with the actions and ideologies of only a minority of the religion as a whole. For every al-Wahhābiyah, Ḥizbu 'llāh, and Ḥamās true-believer out there who believes in exporting violent jihād to the rest of the world, there’s another eight-plus Suni and Shīʿah that really don’t give a damn.

Oh, sure, out of that majority of non-jihādi Muslims, a majority of them are anti-Semitic, homophobic, misogynistic jerks who tend to be governed by authoritarian assholes... But that just means I don’t want to vacation in Qatar, not that I think we need to invade.

But even then, those sorts of bigoted ideas are fairly rare amongst Muslims who actually live in the United States. Yeah, obviously, there are some. But there’s also assholes like the Westboro Baptists and Antifa. Assholes can be found everywhere.

It’s important to be able to distinguish between the violent al-Wahhābiyah types, the non-violent but still fundamentalist orthodoxy types, and the more or less secularized westernized types. One group wants to kill you, one group doesn’t like you much but will ignore you, the last group lives down the road and coaches your kids’ tee-ball team. I don’t say this from some sense of hippie-dippy Kumbaya-singing sensibility, it just makes good strategic sense.

Threat awareness means being able to tell the difference between a Hells Angel gangster and a Chartered Accountant with a Pan-Head. Sure, they’re both “bikers,” but only one is likely to be smuggling PCP.
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.

BriarThrone
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by BriarThrone » Sun May 20, 2018 6:24 am

Let's get something perfectly straight here, people.

You can't be "bigoted" against an ideology. You can only be bigoted against people. If you don't like what people believe, then that's not bigotry. It's not based on an unchanging, inborn characteristic. It's based on people's choices, actions, and worldview. Disliking other people's beliefs isn't prejudice, by definition, because in order to dislike a person based on their beliefs you have to know enough about them to know what they believe.

I compared Islam and the National Socialist Party for a number of reasons. One of those reasons is their fundamental similarity, but this is the primary one. Not many people dislike German people. Lots of people dislike Nazis, which were a group of Germans who have chosen to believe certain terrible things about their fellow man. In the same way, criticism of Islam is criticism of a certain set of beliefs, and if a person does not hold those beliefs, then said criticism does not apply. Therefore, it is not bigotry. Labeling it in such a way prevents criticism of ideas, and no ideas should be beyond criticism.

People conflating race and ideology is nothing new. Two of my heroes are black men - Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas. Both men have been accused of being "not really black" because their views are not common within the black community. What does ideology have to do with race? Nothing. They're both black. They are also amazingly intelligent and insightful men with many admirers of all races. Idiots and assholes, however, will insist that they don't count as black, so that their admirers can still be called racists when the issue is really about ideology.

User avatar
Batgirl III
Posts: 2429
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by Batgirl III » Sun May 20, 2018 6:34 am

The problem I have is that your conflating all the myriad Muslim ideologies into one, singular strawman ideology. That’s either an oversimplification borne from a honest lack of education on the subject, at best, or willful intellectually dishonest, at worst.

The comparison to the NSDAP would be more apt if you were comparing a specific Muslim group, say Hamas, to the Nazis. Instead you’re comparing a narrow group to a very very broad one.

All Nazis are socialists, but not all socialists are Nazis; All Wahhābiyah are Muslims, but not all Muslims are Wahhābiyah.
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.

BriarThrone
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by BriarThrone » Sun May 20, 2018 6:36 am

Batgirl III wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 6:21 am
I think you’re being overly broad in characterizing all of Islam with the actions and ideologies of only a minority of the religion as a whole. For every al-Wahhābiyah, Ḥizbu 'llāh, and Ḥamās true-believer out there who believes in exporting violent jihād to the rest of the world, there’s another eight-plus Suni and Shīʿah that really don’t give a damn.
You're doing it too. All of Islam is like that, with a very few exceptions, like the reform movements like those of Imam al Tawhidi. Not all Muslims, because not all Muslims are that invested.
Batgirl III wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 6:21 am
Oh, sure, out of that majority of non-jihādi Muslims, a majority of them are anti-Semitic, homophobic, misogynistic jerks who tend to be governed by authoritarian assholes... But that just means I don’t want to vacation in Qatar, not that I think we need to invade.
Qatar in particular needs some serious foreign policy consideration. They're run by slavers and fundamentalists, while telling ridiculous lies about how awesomely enlightened the Muslim world is and how vile everyone who thinks otherwise is via their government-owned media. I don't think we need to invade... but maybe we should look at shining more of a spotlight on their evil.
Batgirl III wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 6:21 am
But even then, those sorts of bigoted ideas are fairly rare amongst Muslims who actually live in the United States. Yeah, obviously, there are some. But there’s also assholes like the Westboro Baptists and Antifa. Assholes can be found everywhere.
Again, that Pew data.
Batgirl III wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 6:21 am
It’s important to be able to distinguish between the violent al-Wahhābiyah types, the non-violent but still fundamentalist orthodoxy types, and the more or less secularized westernized types. One group wants to kill you, one group doesn’t like you much but will ignore you, the last group lives down the road and coaches your kids’ tee-ball team. I don’t say this from some sense of hippie-dippy Kumbaya-singing sensibility, it just makes good strategic sense.
The latter type, I'm cool with entirely. They're not passing anything dangerous down to their kids - though their kids are a prime target for radicalization, and so often they don't want lots of immigration from Muslim-majority countries. The non-violent-but-still-orthodox type tends to lionize the violent ones, and therefore maybe we need to consider not pretending that the orthodoxy itself is harmless.
Batgirl III wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 6:21 am
Threat awareness means being able to tell the difference between a Hells Angel gangster and a Chartered Accountant with a Pan-Head. Sure, they’re both “bikers,” but only one is likely to be smuggling PCP.
True. But if that accountant is growing up talking admiringly of the Hell's Angels, there's a good chance his kids will seek out the Hell's Angels.

BriarThrone
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by BriarThrone » Sun May 20, 2018 6:40 am

Batgirl III wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 6:34 am
The problem I have is that your conflating all the myriad Muslim ideologies into one, singular strawman ideology. That’s either an oversimplification borne from a honest lack of education on the subject, at best, or willful intellectually dishonest, at worst.

The comparison to the NSDAP would be more apt if you were comparing a specific Muslim group, say Hamas, to the Nazis. Instead you’re comparing a narrow group to a very very broad one.

All Nazis are socialists, but not all socialists are Nazis; All Wahhābiyah are Muslims, but not all Muslims are Wahhābiyah.
Tell that to Imam al-Tawhidi, whose non-awful version of Islamic teachings are received with extreme hostility throughout the Muslim world. Or take your pick of Islamic reform advocates. If there was a non-shit Islamic sect out there, they'd just say "This is the one we need to spread and become more mainstream." There's not one that they have not created.

Do not ever accuse me of ignorance or intellectual dishonesty. Seriously, you should know better.

User avatar
Davies
Posts: 1183
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Muslim Culture, History and Politics - Open Debate

Post by Davies » Sun May 20, 2018 8:24 am

BriarThrone wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 5:28 am
Islam is stagnant, and will die on its own if we just let it.
I wonder what he thinks will replace it.

Post Reply