Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

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HalloweenJack
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Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by HalloweenJack » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:43 pm

I was kind of a lurker and such before this board got going and I have a vague idea of what happened.....but is there more detail?


I was talking to a poster from GR the other day, I won't say who, but I asked if they'd ever consider coming here and they said no stating this is where the majority of people who caused the split came to

So....What the F?

Shock
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by Shock » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:08 pm

As someone who was not involved my perspective was:

1) There was a bunch of political arguing
2) Green Ronin moderator over-zealously "moderated"
3) Users escalated
4) Moderator escalated
5) Repeat 3 & 4 a bit
6) Green Ronin threatened to shut their forums down
7) Ares generously created a new forum

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Arkrite
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by Arkrite » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:34 pm

That is, the long and short of it.

Honestly I believe one of the things Aries asked when we came over here was to try to let that discussion die.
Not because we agreed/disagreed with how things went, but in an effort to end any more escalation over the events. People got emotional, and people got motivated to do things.
Some good, some not good.

But the last thing any of us want is to keep adding flames to a fire that already went out of control and has, largely, already run itself out.

Even after all this time I'm still emotional and touchy on the subject, and all of my involvement was that of an onlooker.

It is sad that some people will never know why we left, it is sad that a lot of people have misunderstandings about why we left. I have had one person literally say to me that the didn't want to know my side of the story.

And that's okay.

At the end of the day a large number of us felt uncomfortable remaining on the boards, and we came here instead to continue our hobbies, our love of games, and our silly love for nostalgia, superheroes, and occasionally milfs.
If people want to come over and join us, I'd be happy to see them. If people don't? Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but I'll be hoping that they'll continue to have as much fun over there as I am over here.

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Ken
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by Ken » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:36 pm

I don't like talking about it. But I watched it happen. And someone grabbed screen shots. And I'm a reasonably competent HTML coder with a website I keep a buttload of gaming stuff on. http://dicetales.net/rcu/rw_his/attnuclear.htm
I've learned to live every day like I was dying; every night I stick a catheter in me and scream for morphine.

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Ares
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by Ares » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:30 am

I don't mind a discussion about what happened. As we approach our first year anniversary, a good deal of reflecting on the past is probably healthy. I just don't want to obsess over it. I genuinely don't want to turn away anyone who might come here from GR, nor do I want anyone to feel they need to choose one place or the other. This place is and always will be under my management a place to relax and have a good time. Keep the drama to a minimum, keep the name-calling and ill will non-existant, and keep the good times rolling.

FuzzyBoots
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by FuzzyBoots » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:15 pm

Frankly, it was a bit of a perfect storm with the dispute happening when a fair amount of Green Ronin staff was on vacation, so they kind of got yanked back to settle things.

It was a mess. I only really blame one of the Green Ronin moderators, but frankly, the company did not do themselves any favors by attempting to erase their errors and then to appeal to an idea of there having been many incidents in the past which they quietly dealt with and that's why they were threatening to go nuclear now.

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Tattooedman
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by Tattooedman » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:50 pm

Back when the whole "incident" happened I remember being more upset about how GR handled things rather than what had actually happened. I understand that sometimes people just have a "bad day", and things can mount up in their personal lives that makes them react to things differently than they normally would.

I've done it several times in my life, probably will do it some more in all honesty. I'm only human.

But like I said in the beginning of this post my problem was how GR management handled things afterwards. The blackout (as I called what followed; the day long shut down & removal of various posts & posters who were asking about what happened or trying to talk about what had happened so that everyone could understand what was going on) honestly made me extremely uncomfortable to continue on as part of the RA forum as things seemed to be run with a "by the seat of the pants" or "put out the fire" mentality with no thought given to the fact that the people who were asking questions were doing so because they loved the site & only wanted to make things "right" again. That combined with a personal experience I had with a game producer just a few days before had me looking at what my options were available to me for a place to post my setting material and run games, as I found myself feeling that I could no longer trust those who were supposed to be "unbiased" and "fair" in the running of the RA forums.

That said I lurk on the RA forum, as there are several posters I like to follow because I enjoy their ideas, but I haven't posted anything there since the spilt. I don't feel comfortable doing so and don't expect that to change unfortunately.

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Ares
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by Ares » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:44 am

I still post on RA, but only really in Kreu's thread. I honestly wonder about however I've presented this place that he apparently doesn't feel comfortable posting here, at least on occasion. I want to say that I made it clear that this place didn't need to be an all-or-nothing solution, and that people could post on either site without any problems from this end.

I honestly wouldn't have even considered this place if the initial incident would have been handled even a little differently. Had it been limited to one moderator making one bad decision due to a bad personal experience, had the concerns been listened to and addressed with full transparency, I don't think we'd have this place. Which isn't to say that some posters didn't stir some shit and aggravate matters, but the Mos basically turned it into a hill to die on, deleting posts, basically doing what felt like cover-up work and making the "these forums are something we choose to have, not something you have a right to" threats, it really made the place uncomfortable to be around. It was a hostile environment and I had no reason to believe any concerns I had would ever be listened to.

In some ways I realize that fear can be worse here since I'm the site owner and really the only person doing any moderator duties. Its why I try to be transparent about pretty much everything and make it clear you guys can contact me whenever about whatever. If this place ever gets big enough I might have to start deputizing folks, but until then I'll just have to make sure everyone feels like their concerns will be listened to.

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Ken
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by Ken » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:42 am

Yeah. I basically think of the incident as Feld*-his-face's overreaction and the GR reaction. The actual argument between LC and BG I dismiss. That was just two posters getting into a political discussion on a message board. That's nothing new.

It was the total failure to recognise or acknowledge the overreaction that was the problem. And I'll acknowledge and admit that I was one of the people who was pushing GR the hardest for something from them, and in the end I probably made things worse because of it. I regret that I made things worse. I'm not sorry I pushed hard. I regret that their reaction was so lame, I felt the need to push hard.
I've learned to live every day like I was dying; every night I stick a catheter in me and scream for morphine.

Jabroniville
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by Jabroniville » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:23 am

Specifically, the Mod calling me out repeatedly, within my own thread, was the straw that broke the camel's back, and directlt caused my thread's ending its relationship with GR forums. Particularly since I myself didn't do anything to get banned. I was being made guilty by association, and directly taunted and harassed.

BriarThrone
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by BriarThrone » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:35 am

I'd personally feel kind of bad, for having been one of the posters who "escalated" things after the first ban, especially since I'm such a spotty poster anyway... but all I did was call out bullying from the GR moderators, and I'm never going to be ashamed of doing that.

In terms of people not wanting to be here because this is where the people who "caused the split" went... the RA moderators, and the Green Ronin company as a whole later on, caused the split with their emotional, reactionary, hamfisted response to civil disagreement. The moment BG3 got banned, the place became a hostile environment for anyone who wasn't willing to salute the flag GR was waving, and they just kept doubling down.

I don't hold any ill will toward people who still post there, but Green Ronin as a company is irredeemable in my eyes.

FuzzyBoots
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by FuzzyBoots » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:52 am

*shrug* And I would not go so far as that. I think that they made some bad decisions, but it was basically doubling down on siding with family, and I can understand where that can lead. I've had many of the times when I've defended those close to me and then realized that I didn't exactly share the same vehemence with their given cause. And ultimately, I think that's a lot of what happened. Fildrigar overreacted and the rest of the staff backed him because he was one of them and blood is thicker than water.

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Ken
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by Ken » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:59 am

I hadn't realised that they were a family. I was under the impression that they're a company, one with the end goal of making money.

Speaking as a recovering IT guy, what Feldspar did was so unprofessional it wasn't funny. The fact that the company backed him and alienated a portion of the fan base is bad business.
I've learned to live every day like I was dying; every night I stick a catheter in me and scream for morphine.

Jabroniville
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by Jabroniville » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:11 am

Yeah, I wasn't really surprised to see them back up their employee/co-worker (who is presumably a close friend, hence FuzzyBoots referring to "family"). That said... this could all have been avoided with the cool-off period of "hey, look. Some things were said and some feathers were ruffled; can people just settle down? From now on, no conversations about GamerGate/political diatribes in unrelated threads. We will see about reinstating Batgirl after a few days."

ANYTHING would have been fine. But instead they circled the wagons around their guy (hell, even Kyle... KYLE!... told me via e-mail that he felt Fildrigar was over-the-top and "came in like a bull in a china shop"), never mentioned Batgirl, tossed around bans like candy (I remember the worst one was probably Ken's post being deleted- the one where he referred to a costume a female gamer made, mentioning it as a reference to the GG discussion- the Mods deleted it and gave him a short ban), deleted Batgirl's statement saying goodbye to all her old friends, then deleted all of the evidence and just sat back while Fildrigar taunted me.

Now... could cooler heads have prevailed? Sure. If people had just sat back and stewed for a while instead of getting angry right away, we might have seen a peaceful solution and had a reinstatement (I was never expecting an apology). Nothing was really stopping Batgirl from coming in under another name (she did twice- I don't think the second one was ever caught). BUT... all that was going on, the other mods more or less ignoring me and another guy's pleas for leniency (SassyRonin was the one I beseeched, I think- he just commented on the day-long shutdown as "everyone needing to cool off" and said "we're looking at what happened".

Never mind the whole mess on the board where the other Mod blamed us for the problem, made up stories about being "harassed" on social media to paint us as the bad guys, then said "we're going to shut down the boards!" and warned everyone to back their stuff up. Horrified fans on the boards desperately pleaded for them not to do it, though one poster more or less taunted them with "so it seems like you're asking us if we're willing to BEG to have our forums back". In the end... they did nothing. But didn't even make a statement! It just sat there as an open topic for like 2-3 months until someone responded again, and a mod was like "The boards are sticking around". I don't even think they did their promised change of Terms of Service!

I'm thinking they needed to have someone more devoted to actually being a mod. Fildrigar was pretty clearly just a GR employee who was pretty much the default "Guy Who Mods" because no one else had time. Obviously he had the wrong personality for it. But the GIANT mess-up around The Incident, and the poor handling of it, was what directly caused the split. I still look back at RoninArmy and get a little said sometimes, but all the good topics made it over here (with one notable exception- Kreuz Control is still at RA), and most of the cool posters have joined in :). I'll always be thankful for this place, and if Ares ever goes psychotic with power and starts banning us all, we'll hopefully have another place we can go too (just kidding, Ares! Don't hit me! I think America Chavez is awful! I swear :)!).

Plus... no Front Page Bug!! And you can post more than four images per post!

Jabroniville
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Re: Just a reminder...what exactly caused the split?

Post by Jabroniville » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:22 am

Oh, and I wrote down a giant bit-by-bit point of "The Incident" a year ago and distributed it to a lot of people via e-mail, so if anyone is curious about it, I can post it here. There's probably a lot of stuff I'm forgetting (I kind of don't think about it that often). FuzzyBoots said it was a well-rounded "just the facts" non-biased version of events, if that matters :).

In retrospect, my constant PMing of people with "hey if you want to know what happened, just e-mail me" is probably what set the Mods against me :). They probably knew I was going off the grid and saying things they couldn't "overhear" via the PM system.

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