So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

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badpenny
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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by badpenny » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:51 pm

Not taking anything from the community is a viewpoint from privilege. Again, I'll cite All Lives Matter. Sure, all lives do matter. Patently. OTOH, it's black people--primarily men--who are routinely gunned down by police as the first response (not a function of escalation).

Privilege quite often puts forth the notion that everyone's the same, as long as they're like me. Once someone's different, once someone has a different perspective or story that requires the person who's in privilege to have to extend their own POV it becomes too much.

Cornrows had to be fought for. White people wearing cornrows did nothing. Jazz, OTOH, was hardly a point of contention. White people could always go to a black club to hear jazz. The reverse wasn't true. Not everyone is equal. Even today. People in privilege like to think it's this way--because it is for them.

If a POC wears baggy/low jeans they're lumped into the "gangbanger" box. Etc. ad nauseam. Maybe the worst thing that happens to a white person wearing their jeans low is they get a comment. But I doubt the cops are going to accost the white guy for walking down the street.
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Voltron64
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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by Voltron64 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:54 pm

On a related note, I've been permabanned from RPG.net for a couple of weeks now because of multiple instances I couldn't control my temper.

I am doing whatever I can to undo it because I really enjoyed being a member of that site.

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Ares
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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by Ares » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:00 pm

Voltron64 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:54 pm
On a related note, I've been permabanned from RPG.net for a couple of weeks now because of multiple instances I couldn't control my temper.

I am doing whatever I can to undo it because I really enjoyed being a member of that site.
That seems to be a problem, based on what I've read on other sites. People banned for suspect reasons, sometimes for reasons they claim were false, and a general notion that some of the mods have gone a bit overboard. I do hope you can get back in. I don't care for the moderation, but the overall site is fun.

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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by Arkrite » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:46 pm

The biggest issue I see these days is that a person cannot be wrong anymore without being stomped all over.

You say something we don't like? Congrats, you're going to be seeing a media crapstorm as we bombard everybody around you for having the absolute gall to have an opinion.
And worse, some of most recent ones I've seen have gone "X has an opinion which can be seen as racist" "We're going to ruin his life!" "Do you know what his opinions are?" "Doesn't matter, somebody said he's racist and I can't stand for that!"

My concern is that if bringing up a subject means you're going to get smacked down, or worse, how is anybody supposed to ever grow or learn?
And worse, the people who use these arguments as an opportunity to prop themselves up. For some people it's less about protecting their culture and more about power.

At the end of the day I just wait for this to pretty much crush free speech, open discussion, or having differing opinions.

I mean, while I don't really agree with BadPenny's take on cultural appropriation but I'd rather be able to hear her opinions, be able to discuss them and try to consider the other side of the conversation. By being able to do that there's opportunity for people on all sides to learn and grow.

But in some locations if I were to disagree on that subject I'd be slapped down, called all sorts of horrible names, be labeled all sorts of horrible things all for the crime of having an opinion.

I worry that this culture of attacking any idea we don't like as being racist/bigoted/etc might perpetuate the same kind of ignorance that was so damning and damaging to so many innocent people in the past.

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badpenny
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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by badpenny » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:07 pm

Here's how I look at it: there are a lot of people of privilege who view the world as zero-sum. If they have to stop saying, "That movie was gay" (as a slam) they're losing something. Instead of saying, " Huh, I hadn't thought about that," or, "Wow, I've been saying that since I was a kid...and probably should stop now" often they attack the gay person who issued the complaint and labeled as a whiner, complainer, or professional victim,

What would it cost you to stop saying that? Nothing. What does it mean to the gay person who doesn't have to hear it? A lot!

Thinking about things from an Intersectional POV can help, and it's an important muscle to develop.
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Voltron64
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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by Voltron64 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:48 pm

badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:07 pm
Here's how I look at it: there are a lot of people of privilege who view the world as zero-sum. If they have to stop saying, "That movie was gay" (as a slam) they're losing something. Instead of saying, " Huh, I hadn't thought about that," or, "Wow, I've been saying that since I was a kid...and probably should stop now" often they attack the gay person who issued the complaint and labeled as a whiner, complainer, or professional victim,

What would it cost you to stop saying that? Nothing. What does it mean to the gay person who doesn't have to hear it? A lot!

Thinking about things from an Intersectional POV can help, and it's an important muscle to develop.
Pride is a very powerful thing...

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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by Ken » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:01 pm

(with apologies to Cheap Trick)

The thought police
They want inside of our heads
The thought police
They come to me in my bed
The thought police
They're coming to arrest me
Oh no
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BriarThrone
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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by BriarThrone » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:57 pm

First, I would like to make it abundantly clear that I am addressing your arguments, not attacking you personally. Nor would I ever attempt to silence you. To the contrary, I'm looking to start a YouTube channel, and the more of this there is on the Internet, the better off I'll be. This shit is fucking gold.
badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:35 pm
There's a lot of sophistry going on in the video you cite. First, it has to be taken on a case by case basis else you end up with the ridiculous notion of physically having to ask someone for permission. That's not the point.
How is it not the point? That seems like a pretty crucial part of this concept. If there is no central authority from whom you can obtain permission, then you can ask any given person for permission to participate in their culture in some way, and then the very next person from a related culture to come along can object, and you've sinned, despite making an effort to do the "right thing." Except...
badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:35 pm
Take cornrows. First, you have to understand the history of Black hair. Second, you have to understand White privilege. It costs nothing for a white person to have their hair any damn way they like. OTOH, black people have been maligned for centuries for their hair. That they now get to be more like white people (less stigmatized for having/wearing natural hair) should be theirs (an identity). White people wearing cornrows is appropriation.
the entire concept of "cultural appropriation" is bullshit, and whatever beefwitted chucklefuck entered it into the SJW lexicon has no clue what "culture" is and how it works. The fact that it's gone this long without being subject to any kind of critical analysis is kind of sad, really. You see, culture is, fundamentally, a set of ideas, and like all ideas, it spreads through memetic propagation. That is to say, if you introduce an element of your culture - say, a hairstyle - to an outside group that does not share your culture, and it becomes a repeated thing that begins spreading itself throughout that group - congratulations! Your culture is spreading. Your culture has begun to integrate with another. Your culture is becoming the new normal. But somehow, that's bad.

Historically, whenever two groups met, this would inevitably happen to some degree. Cultures intermingle. But somehow, here, in the Western world in the 21st century, you've declared some ideas sacrosanct and reserved only for the originators. Even when sometimes they aren't the real originators. I'm not sure what possible use this could have to anyone, except to accumulate points toward the Oppression Olympics.
badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:35 pm
Then you get backlash from white privilege being impinged with the whiny five year old voice, "But they get to do it."
When you tell one group that they have no right to any sort of personal belongings, and they must share everything with everybody, while at the same time telling every other group that they have the right to reserve things exclusively to themselves, seemingly on an arbitrary basis, yeah, you're going to get a lot of people wondering how the fuck that's fair.
badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:35 pm
cf White/All Lives Matter.
Yeah, isn't it amazing how whiny some folks get when you incite violence against innocent people? The nerve of them, wanting to defend themselves.
badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:35 pm
My background is white, female, and a Social Worker (yes, a dreaded SJW). AMA! :)
Well, that does explain why you're virtue signalling so hard. Gotta make up for that lack of oppressed melanin, y'know. Maybe if you earn enough Oppression Points, your minority peers will let you hang out with them and you can sneer at the Evil White People together! (Spoiler alert: they won't.)

On to the next post!

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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by BriarThrone » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:01 pm

MissRo wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:53 pm
It's shameful and embarrassing for me to admit this, but I spend anywhere from $1000 to $1200 a year just to keep my hair relaxed. I can't stand to look at myself in the mirror when it starts getting nappy.

It's hard to understand what it's like to be a visible minority unless you've lived the life.
Holy crap, yeah, I have a hard time understanding that life. To have that kind of disposable income to throw at dealing with my personal fashion insecurities? I still have shirts in my closet from '02! Most white people I knew growing up would have had to just learn to deal with it, but if you're so privileged that you can pay to make it go away, I guess... congratulations?

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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by Doctor Malsyn » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:21 pm

As interesting as this is all to read, it might be approaching the point where it should be taken to the Debate subforum.
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BriarThrone
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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by BriarThrone » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:37 pm

badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:51 pm
Not taking anything from the community is a viewpoint from privilege. Again, I'll cite All Lives Matter. Sure, all lives do matter. Patently. OTOH, it's black people--primarily men--who are routinely gunned down by police as the first response (not a function of escalation).
That's... not what the data shows. When in committing violent crimes, white people are actually more likely to get shot. African-Americans and Mestizos get shot proportionally more often percapita, sure, but not as much as their violent crime stats, by conviction and by victim ID reporting, would suggest should be the case if they were shot as often as white Americans when committing violent crimes. This, despite African-Americans being the most-frequent demographic charged with resisting arrest. Your claim is spurious.
badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:51 pm
Privilege quite often puts forth the notion that everyone's the same, as long as they're like me. Once someone's different, once someone has a different perspective or story that requires the person who's in privilege to have to extend their own POV it becomes too much.
Is that what Privilege says? Y'know, gosh, I hate to admit it, but I've never actually seen any kind of presentation by or interview of the SJW Unholy Trinity. If you could link me to anything like that, with Privilege, Patriarchy, or Ism, that would be swell.

By this, of course I mean that ideas don't put forth ideas. People do. And the only people I've seen who express the kind of intolerance of difference that you talk about are SJWs. College campuses and mainstream culture aren't exactly too keen on allowing dissent to be expressed openly these days. Me, and as far as I know most people like me, are perfectly fine to allow differences to stand, as long as no one gets actually hurt. Physically, not emotionally.
badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:51 pm
Cornrows had to be fought for.
Gosh, that's awful! I had no idea about this! When was this war? How many dead? Is there a memorial? What was the name of the treaty where black people were ceded exclusive rights to the "cornrow" hairstyle?
badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:51 pm
White people wearing cornrows did nothing.
Hold on a tick... did nothing? Not much of a war, then, was it?
badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:51 pm
Jazz, OTOH, was hardly a point of contention. White people could always go to a black club to hear jazz. The reverse wasn't true.
Well, that doesn't seem fair. Why were the white people exposed to black culture and influenced, but black people weren't allowed to expose themselves to white people... playing white people music? Or is it white people playing jazz? When you say "the reverse," I think you're going to have to be a little more specific.
badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:51 pm
Not everyone is equal. Even today. People in privilege like to think it's this way--because it is for them.
Your sort would be the experts. What's it like to have your religion taught in universities as if it's the universal truth?
badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:51 pm
If a POC wears baggy/low jeans they're lumped into the "gangbanger" box. Etc. ad nauseam.
Yeah, when you adopt prison culture, it might cause authorities to wonder what else you've picked up from convicts. There's something of a logical connection there.
badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:51 pm
Maybe the worst thing that happens to a white person wearing their jeans low is they get a comment. But I doubt the cops are going to accost the white guy for walking down the street.
You "doubt." Gosh, it's nice to have such marvelous empirical evidence as your feelings.

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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by Jabroniville » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:50 pm

When I think of "appropriation", I think more about like that episode of South Park where the Metrosexual fad hit town. Mr. Garrison (who was gay) was happy to see all of the nice gay men in town... only to realize that they WEREN'T gay- they were just mimicking gay CULTURE.

"What?? Be we spent years trying to make a culture that WASN'T like yours! You can't DO this to us!" He ended up communing with Chef over "what's it like when white people copy all of YOUR cultural traits?" and Chef goes on about how "when white people started saying "in the house", too, we started saying "in the heezy. Then when they started saying THAT, we switched it to "in the flibbity-flobbity-floo!" (naturally, a white character was seen saying that exact same thing, with Chef getting upset).

So of course they make their points in the silliest way possible, but it's a real thing. They don't really take it as a TRAGEDY (ie. a woman yelling at a man for having cornrows is dumb), but as something that's an annoyance- when the "dominant culture" just sort of gobbles up everything from everyone else and makes it their own. Of course white folks are allowed to play jazz (MANY of the bands from jazz's prime were integrated, too), and can be down with the hip-hop (as we say in the hood), but it's okay for the minority culture to just be a LITTLE annoyed that "their thing" was now just copied. The proper reaction to a white guy wearing cornrows should be eye-rolling and a "... REALLY?"

Getting back to the RPGnet thing, what I disagree with is their way of just trashing any contrary opinions, and simply shutting down debates and locking topics instead of just DEALING with it. The equivalent of a five-year-old sticking fingers in their ears and going "LALALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUUUU!". Like Universities & students denying anyone with a differing opinion the right to speak (like the woman who wrote Infidel, about actually growing up in the Muslim world, who was barred from speaking... about her opinions about the Muslim world). Granted, maybe they've had years and years of putting up with arguments painting things this way (I remember recently, they flat-out barred anyone from saying "Alt-Right"), but it's over-moderation, plain and simple.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by BriarThrone » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:53 pm

badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:07 pm
Here's how I look at it: there are a lot of people of privilege who view the world as zero-sum. If they have to stop saying, "That movie was gay" (as a slam) they're losing something. Instead of saying, " Huh, I hadn't thought about that," or, "Wow, I've been saying that since I was a kid...and probably should stop now" often they attack the gay person who issued the complaint and labeled as a whiner, complainer, or professional victim,

What would it cost you to stop saying that? Nothing. What does it mean to the gay person who doesn't have to hear it? A lot!
Y'know, I agree that this is a stupid thing to say. What does that even mean?

On the other hand... whose job is it to police the speech of others? Is it up to each individual person? In that case, what good do you think you're going to do by scolding someone like a child on the way they're speaking? Do you think you're honestly going to create the sort of epiphany you're describing? Or do you suppose you're more likely to get the middle finger and a reputation as an insufferable jackass who gets off on controlling other people? I mean in real life, not the after-school special you appear to be scripting here.
badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:07 pm
Thinking about things from an Intersectional POV can help, and it's an important muscle to develop.
Largely because the muscle that gets exercised when you achieve an Intersectional POV is the same muscle that prevents you from pooping yourself.

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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by Jabroniville » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:57 pm

badpenny wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:07 pm
Here's how I look at it: there are a lot of people of privilege who view the world as zero-sum. If they have to stop saying, "That movie was gay" (as a slam) they're losing something. Instead of saying, " Huh, I hadn't thought about that," or, "Wow, I've been saying that since I was a kid...and probably should stop now" often they attack the gay person who issued the complaint and labeled as a whiner, complainer, or professional victim,

What would it cost you to stop saying that? Nothing. What does it mean to the gay person who doesn't have to hear it? A lot!

Thinking about things from an Intersectional POV can help, and it's an important muscle to develop.
I actually started saying "that's so STRAIGHT" to things in response to that pejorative, but my friends made me stop :).

It makes reading shit I used to write uncomfortable though, as I was SUPER-into saying it at one point. I mean, despite being 100% for gay rights & marriage and stuff, I was all "well that was GAY" and "more gayness, as _____ happens!" I read it now and I'm like ".... the F*CK, 2003-era Jab?"

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Re: So, guess who got his first RPG.net ban?

Post by Ares » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:16 am

Doctor Malsyn wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:21 pm
As interesting as this is all to read, it might be approaching the point where it should be taken to the Debate subforum.
I agree. When I get home I'll likely move the debate portion of this over there.

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