Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

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saint_matthew
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Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by saint_matthew »

Oh looks like Warren Ellis just got cancelled for imaginary crimes.
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Scots Dragon
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Scots Dragon »

Yes, I'm sure that the writer known for making self-inserts who frequently sleep with much younger women despite a hugely imbalanced power dynamic has an absolutely spotless personal record.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Scots Dragon »

I also find it fascinating how 'innocent until proven guilty' so frequently translates into 'that woman is definitely guilty of making false accusations'.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Jabroniville »

Scots Dragon wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:49 pm Yes, I'm sure that the writer known for making self-inserts who frequently sleep with much younger women despite a hugely imbalanced power dynamic has an absolutely spotless personal record.
haha, that was my point in the Discord and I didn't even know about Transmetropolitan or whatever. But it was mostly because Teen Jab hated Ellis for having Pete Wisdom sleep with my beloved Kitty Pryde.

Ellis's thing makes him seem more like a cad who sleeps around than the monster a lot of other people were, so I find he's hardly as bad as the others if it's true (and given the number of accusations, probably is...), though why is it ONLY NOW coming out to any large degree? It's that weird thing like in the recent pro wrestling scandals where suddenly dozens of people pop up with accusations to certain people, and it's corroborated enough to more or less end the UK wrestling scene.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Scots Dragon »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:39 pm
Scots Dragon wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:49 pm Yes, I'm sure that the writer known for making self-inserts who frequently sleep with much younger women despite a hugely imbalanced power dynamic has an absolutely spotless personal record.
haha, that was my point in the Discord and I didn't even know about Transmetropolitan or whatever. But it was mostly because Teen Jab hated Ellis for having Pete Wisdom sleep with my beloved Kitty Pryde.

Ellis's thing makes him seem more like a cad who sleeps around than the monster a lot of other people were, so I find he's hardly as bad as the others if it's true (and given the number of accusations, probably is...), though why is it ONLY NOW coming out to any large degree? It's that weird thing like in the recent pro wrestling scandals where suddenly dozens of people pop up with accusations to certain people, and it's corroborated enough to more or less end the UK wrestling scene.
I feel like it has a lot to do with the Old Boys Club mentality. A lot of these people have powerful friends and the accusers don't.

Thus, they get away with their bullshit for way longer and it becomes endemic to the industry over time as the people who engage in this bullshit are the only ones who stay around in the industry because many of their victims find themselves forced out, either by literal forcing-out and getting blackballed, or simply because they just weren't comfortable sticking around and decided to find another career. Those who do stay around tend to stay silent for their own sake because they haven't got much choice.

So when the floodgates finally do open, what comes out is a damn torrent of decades of stuff that's otherwise been kept under wraps.

And indeed, Ellis himself has dozens of accusers.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by greycrusader »

Scots Dragon wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:21 pm
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:39 pm
Scots Dragon wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:49 pm Yes, I'm sure that the writer known for making self-inserts who frequently sleep with much younger women despite a hugely imbalanced power dynamic has an absolutely spotless personal record.
haha, that was my point in the Discord and I didn't even know about Transmetropolitan or whatever. But it was mostly because Teen Jab hated Ellis for having Pete Wisdom sleep with my beloved Kitty Pryde.

Ellis's thing makes him seem more like a cad who sleeps around than the monster a lot of other people were, so I find he's hardly as bad as the others if it's true (and given the number of accusations, probably is...), though why is it ONLY NOW coming out to any large degree? It's that weird thing like in the recent pro wrestling scandals where suddenly dozens of people pop up with accusations to certain people, and it's corroborated enough to more or less end the UK wrestling scene.
I feel like it has a lot to do with the Old Boys Club mentality. A lot of these people have powerful friends and the accusers don't.

Thus, they get away with their bullshit for way longer and it becomes endemic to the industry over time as the people who engage in this bullshit are the only ones who stay around in the industry because many of their victims find themselves forced out, either by literal forcing-out and getting blackballed, or simply because they just weren't comfortable sticking around and decided to find another career. Those who do stay around tend to stay silent for their own sake because they haven't got much choice.

So when the floodgates finally do open, what comes out is a damn torrent of decades of stuff that's otherwise been kept under wraps.

And indeed, Ellis himself has dozens of accusers.
When unethical, dishonest, or just plain unpleasant,objectionable people are in positions of power and influence, either they will be exposed and driven out, or decent, ethical people resign out of disgust or are forced out (dishonorable people do NOT want honorable people working alongside them, or even as subordinates). I've never worked full time in a creative field, just my freelancing, but I can testify to the above from working in several sales and management roles.

Now, Warren Ellis doesn't appear to have done anything criminal, and in and of itself, a power imbalance (or disparity in age) doesn't make exploring the possibility of turning a professional relationship into a romantic one improper; however, multiple women are reporting Ellis approached them about their work (or responded to requests for advice), acted for weeks or months as if he wanted to mentor their writing and help them break into comics, then began speaking more and more intimately until he pressed for a sexual relationship. And if the women refused, or let it be known they were seeking other professional advice before Ellis had the chance to push for sex, he then cut off all contact. He's apparently admitted to "inappropriate" behavior, though a lot of weasel words were used.

Nothing criminal, as the women were all of age (though as young as 19) , but certainly loutish, disrespectful, and borderline unethical behavior. And while-perhaps-not workplace sexual harassment, it makes the guy a bit of a creep. I'm not saying he's an abuser or sociopath, but definitely a jerk in that part of his life. Frankly, if this had been one of my nieces, I'd show up at a convention Ellis was attending just to crack him one. Do I think he should be blackballed from comics? No, but I do think any company which hires him should be VERY careful about his interactions with female co-creators or associates. And requiring him to complete remedial ethics in the workplace training is certainly not out of bounds.

All my best.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Davies »

I'm just surprised he didn't include the words "Damn you! Damn you for making me do this!" in his "apology".
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Scots Dragon »

Davies wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:04 pm I'm just surprised he didn't include the words "Damn you! Damn you for making me do this!" in his "apology".
I haven't seen an apology that half-arsed since Melanie Martinez.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by saint_matthew »

greycrusader wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:30 pmNothing criminal, as the women were all of age (though as young as 19) , but certainly loutish, disrespectful, and borderline unethical behavior. And while-perhaps-not workplace sexual harassment, it makes the guy a bit of a creep.
Doesn't even make him that. This is just a failed relationship between two consenting adults, to assume otherwise requires one to assume grown ass women are children, who need a paternalistic father figure to tell them who they can or cannot have relationships with. Not saying you are doing that, but saying that on a societal level that's not a view I want to see become the prevailing zeitgeist.

They had a relationship, the relationship came to an end & that was the end of it.

Trust me when I say this is not a precedent you want to set, cancelling people because they once dated a consenting adult who could be perceived by moralising third parties as to be of some sort of imaginary lower power level: Women are going to ultimately be the ones who lose out if that's the path society takes.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Scots Dragon »

Or you know.

Between one man and a series of more than thirty-five women he was repeatedly unethical and manipulative towards.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by saint_matthew »

Scots Dragon wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:04 am Or you know.

Between one man and a series of more than thirty-five women he was repeatedly unethical and manipulative towards.
The plural of allegation isn't evidence, it's allegations. Allegations are easy, especially ones made on the internet. Allow me to demonstrate, I allege you have sex with hamsters.

See how easy that allegation was for me to make. It cost me nothing, it took no effort & there is practically nothing you could do to me for making that allegation & to my knowledge the allegation is entirely 100% fictional.

So how many more people need to allege that you have sex with hamsters for it to become true? If 34 people decided to jump on the bandwagon & also make the same false allegation, is that false allegation now true?

And that is an allegation of an actual crime, where as this allegation against Warren can be summed up as being alleged to have had a relationship with a consenting adult, who is not a child, is of sound mind & can make her own choices. So multiple allegations of a non crime, that's more like me alleging I saw you eat toast & then 34 people also allege they saw you eat toast.... Even if it's true it's not a crime.

Because here's the thing about adult agency, it remains adult agency even when you use it to make choices others may consider to be silly or wrong. The right to make those poor choices are part of the freedom of choice all consenting adults have. If we start penalising men because they had a relationship with a woman that failed that is not going to go well for women.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Scots Dragon »

The fact that he didn’t deny but made a mealy mouthed ‘apology’ is perhaps something you should consider in your calculations there.

Why are you so invested anyway? Warren Ellis is not likely to have sex with you, dude.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by greycrusader »

But St.Matthew, that's not exactly the case here; it wasn't a failed relationship(s) so much as it was Warren Ellis pretending he was interested in mentoring/giving professional feedback to women trying to break into the business, all as a pretext to make advances. Now, again, there's nothing criminal as all the women were of age when he turned the conversations to sex talk. But from his own statement (as evasive as it was),it seems fairly clear this was an M.O. with him, something he did more than once. So it was an extended pick-up technique masquerading as professionalism. That doesn't make him abusive, but it does make him a lying jerk in this area of his life. And again, if a guy pulled a stunt like that with one of my nieces, I'd want to crack him in the face.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by greycrusader »

Scots Dragon wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:31 am The fact that he didn’t deny but made a mealy mouthed ‘apology’ is perhaps something you should consider in your calculations there.

Why are you so invested anyway? Warren Ellis is not likely to have sex with you, dude.
I think the statement this isn't criminal behavior or even sexual harassment is fair, and several of the women involved have stated they don't want to see Ellis blacklisted from comics. And yes, allegations and piling-on is easy to do in these days of social media. But this is pretty clearly bad behavior; pretending to be interested in these women's writing as a pick-up technique is a jackass move.

I am going to politely suggest we consider tabling this discussion or Ares moving it to Debate, because we should remain polite to each other (which is already breaking down) just as a matter of courtesy, and also Ellis' dishonest behavior shouldn't result in one or more of our community getting suspended or banned.

All my best.
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Re: Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by Ares »

At greycrusader's suggestion, the topic has been split and moved. This has moved beyond a comics discussion and into a full on debate. Feel free to continue said debate, just remember the rules of the forum as a whole.
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