This is not how to debate (formerly Captain Marvel MCU)

Where we Highlight what not to do.
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Voltron64
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This is not how to debate (formerly Captain Marvel MCU)

Post by Voltron64 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:55 pm

FuzzyBoots wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:34 pm
BriarThrone wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:02 pm
There used to be a button you could click saying "Not Interested," along with one that said you WERE interested. There was a percentage displayed of how many respondants were interested in seeing it. This was, of course, heavily weighted in favor of the movie, because most of the time, you're either interested or not viewing the movie's RT page. When you left a response, you could leave a comment about why you voted that way.

In this case, the fanbase, angry about terrible trailers and exclusivity based on race and sex, came to let their voices be heard. If you want to allege brigading, you need evidence. Best I've seen presented is one tweet with a couple hundred impressions.
Nah, I don't think there was a case of a very large group of people acting in a "coordinated, sustained and organized way" (to use the Urban Dictionary definition). It seemed like a fairly small number of people writing the "This film stinks because I don't like the actress" and when Rotten Tomatoes changed their method of displaying it, things got blown out of proportion because, again, people were pretty much proceeding without any actual proof. So you have people who heard about hordes of negative reviews on Rotten Tomatoes, people who heard about mass suppression of those reviews, and in the end, it does all seem to come to naught except that Marvel got a lot of free publicity from the furforall.

It is, as the saying goes, "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
Really though, it can best said about the complainers, "If you think that comics shouldn't be political, what you're really saying is that you deeply regret that you've grown up to become the kind of person your favourite comic book character would punch in the face."

BriarThrone
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Re: Captain Marvel MCU

Post by BriarThrone » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:18 pm

Voltron64 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:55 pm
Really though, it can best said about the complainers, "If you think that comics shouldn't be political, what you're really saying is that you deeply regret that you've grown up to become the kind of person your favourite comic book character would punch in the face."
Said by idiots who view politics as a struggle between virtuous and noble communists - consisting of women, people who are racial minorities in America, and their willing vassals - and the vile White Male Fascists.

Voltron64
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:44 am
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: Captain Marvel MCU

Post by Voltron64 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:23 pm

BriarThrone wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:18 pm
Voltron64 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:55 pm
Really though, it can best said about the complainers, "If you think that comics shouldn't be political, what you're really saying is that you deeply regret that you've grown up to become the kind of person your favourite comic book character would punch in the face."
Said by idiots who view politics as a struggle between virtuous and noble communists - consisting of women, people who are racial minorities in America, and their willing vassals - and the vile White Male Fascists.
Ahem.

Image

And also...

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BriarThrone
Posts: 461
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Captain Marvel MCU

Post by BriarThrone » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:31 pm

Voltron64 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:23 pm
BriarThrone wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:18 pm
Voltron64 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:55 pm
Really though, it can best said about the complainers, "If you think that comics shouldn't be political, what you're really saying is that you deeply regret that you've grown up to become the kind of person your favourite comic book character would punch in the face."
Said by idiots who view politics as a struggle between virtuous and noble communists - consisting of women, people who are racial minorities in America, and their willing vassals - and the vile White Male Fascists.
Ahem.

Image

And also...

Image
You don't see a difference between a comic where a character synonymous with one country punching the leader of a country they are actively at war against, who was demonstrably responsible for crimes against humanity, and comics openly and aggressively pushing a political ideology that is actively trying to divide our culture domestically?

Voltron64
Posts: 194
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Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: Captain Marvel MCU

Post by Voltron64 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:34 pm

Eh, like anyone ever needed your gish gallop.

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Ares
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Re: Captain Marvel MCU

Post by Ares » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:38 pm

BriarThrone wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:31 pm
Voltron64 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:23 pm
BriarThrone wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:18 pm


Said by idiots who view politics as a struggle between virtuous and noble communists - consisting of women, people who are racial minorities in America, and their willing vassals - and the vile White Male Fascists.
Ahem.

Image

And also...

Image
You don't see a difference between a comic where a character synonymous with one country punching the leader of a country they are actively at war against, who was demonstrably responsible for crimes against humanity, and comics openly and aggressively pushing a political ideology that is actively trying to divide our culture domestically?
Voltron64 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:34 pm
Eh, like anyone ever needed your gish gallop.
Both of you knock it off.

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Ares
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Re: Captain Marvel MCU

Post by Ares » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:06 pm

BriarThrone wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:31 pm
*snip*
Voltron64 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:34 pm
*snip*
Okay, to clarify now that I'm at my computer.

This has moved from a debate with some relevance to the thread in question into something personal. I'm stopping this now before it goes further.

In particular, this:

Voltron64 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:34 pm
Eh, like anyone ever needed your gish gallop.
If not an outright personal attack, is right on the line of one.

Voltron64, consider this a warning.

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Ares
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Re: This is not how to debate (formerly Captain Marvel MCU)

Post by Ares » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:00 pm

Voltron64 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:55 pm
Really though, it can best said about the complainers, "If you think that comics shouldn't be political, what you're really saying is that you deeply regret that you've grown up to become the kind of person your favourite comic book character would punch in the face."
I included this in the cut posts and am using my Mod Voice because I want to be absolutely clear on something.

NO.

ABSOLUTELY NOT.


This is not something that is appropriate for Echoes. Period.

Echoes is, above all else, built on the idea of discussion. I could easily make a "no religion, no politics" topic ban, but I want to encourage reasonable and civil discussion as much as possible. I want everyone here to be able to debate topics, especially if you disagree on them, so long as it's done rationally. I'm hoping to bring back civil discourse.

For those that don't know, it's a quote from Andy Khouri, an editor at DC Comics, specifically of the relaunched Vertigo brand that is . . . . well, is doing terrible because the books are terrible, lets leave it at that.

What is relevant is that what's quoted here is antithetical to more or less everything Echoes stands for. It is a blanket condemnation of everyone whose view differs from Khouri's as, in essence, evil. Because that's what superheroes fight against: evil in what is often it's worst and most dangerous forms. It is calling fans, paying comics fans, that they are the kind of evil righteous people would punch in the face.

It completely removes any chance for debate or discussion because it declares everyone on the opposing side literally evil and thus invalidates the very notion of debate. It further implies that violence against the other side is quite alright, in a very "punch a Nazi" sort of way.

Now I understand that, for brevity's sake, folks often simply say "Group X feels _______", rather than including "the more extreme people in group X feel ______". This is something that should be avoided, but not every instance should be considered a cardinal sin. However, I find this to be a blanket condemnation of an opposing side, and just as bad, is doing so by pulling the "what you really mean" trick, which is just bad debating, and something that irks me to no end. Because it is literally turning the other side into strawmen using words you put into their mouths rather than actually debating any points.

It is literally saying that people should be punched in the face by their heroes, and for what? For some comics fans feeling that, rather than including politics in stories, the politics in comics have become so heavy-handed as to be propaganda the demonizes any opposing side. Much like Khouri is doing in the quote.

It is okay to believe yourself to be in the right. Almost all of us do. It is not right to vilify someone else to this degree without their having done something to actually deserve it.

So let me be absolutely 100% clear here.

The attitude expressed by Andy Khouri here is completely antithetical to the values of Echoes of the Multiverse. This kind of attitude is not constructive for debate, conversation and understanding. This attitude is judgemental, hostile, and disingenuous. It has no place here.

And shame on you for trying to tie Stan Lee to this kind of intolerance.

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