Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

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saint_matthew
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by saint_matthew »

greycrusader wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:49 amBut this is pretty clearly bad behavior; pretending to be interested in these women's writing as a pick-up technique is a jackass move.
Sure, but no one has yet to prove he did that. After all Warren has mentored a lot of people over the years both men & women, the overwhelming majority of whom he did not sleep with, or pursue any kind of relationship with.

So how is it you've determined that he was pretending to be interested in this womans writing for the specific purpose of sleeping with her & wasn't actually interested in her work & later the two consenting adults simply pursued a relationship.
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Re: Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by greycrusader »

Well, it doesn't seem to be "he said, she said" at this point; more like "she said...and she said...and she said...and....and...and..." and then "he sort-of acknowledged and vaguely apologized". If multiple accounts are true, its not two people developing a personal relationship over time, its a guy trying to milk his status to score with women by feigning interest in helping with their writing efforts.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by squirrelly-sama »

Scots Dragon wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:51 pm I also find it fascinating how 'innocent until proven guilty' so frequently translates into 'that woman is definitely guilty of making false accusations'.
Because the alternative is going "She's definitely telling the truth let him prove otherwise" and just convict without any evidence? Innocent until proven guilty REQUIRES that you work under the assumption that the person making the accusation is either lying, misinformed, or misunderstanding some circumstance and as such needs to prove that that their claims are true before they can be accepted as such. The issue with allegations like these is there's rarely anything close to reasonable evidence for or against the allegation as it's often just one person's word against another and there are always reasons someone would lie about these things. If she can provide some evidence that shows that he did what she claims, then he did it. If she doesn't then the law should assume she is not telling the truth. For the rest of society just the accusation is enough to condemn someone and ruin their entire lives even if it's disproven, so I can understand people stepping up to defend them from being labeled as if they have done the deed without any actual evidence to support it.
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Re: Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by Scots Dragon »

You could simply make the statement ‘I am reserving judgement until this is investigated further’.

Neutrality is a possible position to take. Stating that Ellis is clearly innocent of wrongdoing on a moral/ethical level as saint_matthew did is taking a clear side and thus making its own accusation against all of the women in question.

And keep in mind; he made a mealy mouthed apology rather than denying so I feel comfortable taking the stance that the man actually is a creep. I don’t feel he deserves legal reprisal as such because what he did was more a personally immoral and unethical act than something requiring criminal charges. But it’s something that should be exposed both to protect further women from his manipulative nonsense and also to allow people to make their own judgement as to whether to continue following his work.

For my part I don’t feel like I will.
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Re: Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by saint_matthew »

Scots Dragon wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:44 amNeutrality is a possible position to take. Stating that Ellis is clearly innocent of wrongdoing on a moral/ethical level as saint_matthew did is taking a clear side and thus making its own accusation against all of the women in question.
No, what I did was accurately point out is that Warren Ellis was cancelled for committing an imaginary crime. That statement is objectively correct, no crime was committed, even the allegation is the allegation of something that is not a crime. But hey, feel free to correct me, simply point out what crime he committed.

I then accurately pointed out that the plural of allegation is not evidence, it's allegations. It doesn't matter who makes the allegations, or in what amount they remain only allegations until proven. One redneck alleges he was abducted by aliens, it's an allegation. 400 red necks allege they were abducted by aliens, it's still just an allegation.

My side is the truth & the truth is that even if the allegations are true, then that would still be no reason to cancel someone, unless you want to live in a world where your employment is contingent on the subjective opinion of your employer on your past relationships.
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Re: Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by Davies »

Except that being published is not a right, but a privilege, and so denying it to someone ("cancelling them" in your vulgar idiom) is not a crime.
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Re: Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by RainOnTheSun »

It's so, so weird to me when some people treat "canceling" someone as a nuclear option when all it really means is that people on the internet don't like you.
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Re: Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by Scots Dragon »

Davies wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:36 am Except that being published is not a right, but a privilege, and so denying it to someone ("cancelling them" in your vulgar idiom) is not a crime.
He’s actually still got an ongoing. He just isn’t gonna get to write something as part of a tie in to the latest event.
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Re: Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by Davies »

Scots Dragon wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:03 pm
He’s actually still got an ongoing. He just isn’t gonna get to write something as part of a tie in to the latest event.
Why dose bums. How dare they deny him his God-given right to contribute to a oh wait he's an atheist never mind.
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Re: Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by Scots Dragon »

Davies wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:26 pm
Scots Dragon wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:03 pm
He’s actually still got an ongoing. He just isn’t gonna get to write something as part of a tie in to the latest event.
Why dose bums. How dare they deny him his God-given right to contribute to a oh wait he's an atheist never mind.
I don’t know... no one has an entitlement complex quite like an older white atheist dude from the Dawkins school.
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Re: Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by Ares »

Okay, this thread is getting locked, and is going to get moved to the Hall of Shame, because it's gone on to show how not to debate something on these forums.

I'm going to address a few points, make a few comments, and make some hard decisions.
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Re: Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by Ares »

Before I get started, squirrelly-sama had a post they were working on right as I shut the thread down, so in the interest of completion I'm going to include it here:
squirrelly-sama wrote:Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:33 pm
Here, let's run a thought experiment:

One day a concerned member comes to Ares, the moderator of this forum, with claims that you have done or said something extremely heinous. Perhaps not illegal but something so utterly vile that most people would want nothing to do with such a person ever again. This concerned member says that they don't want to be on a forum with someone who would do such terrible things, understandable really, but don't want to leave and don't want someone to get away with such a thing. Ares, being the level-headed person that he is, lets this person know that they can leave if they want but he can't simply punish a member who hasn't violated the rules of the forum they agreed to on making an account regardless of their disgusting actions outside of it, especially with no evidence that this act has even taken place. The concerned member says that this isn't good enough, that people have a right to know and tell Ares that if he doesn't get rid of you he will tell all the other forum members about this horrid misdeed so that they know not to be on a site that would allow something like this to occur.

Ares is now in a predicament, if he doesn't get rid of you his forum has a large chance of just dying as many members could leave rather than choose to associate with you or enable your deplorable efforts or else the site would break down due to a civil war of those defending and attacking based on this situation. It doesn't matter if this person can prove their claims, the accusation of these unspeakable acts is enough to poison a person's reputation, you'll never know if this person would really do something so repulsive a chance of interacting with such a person is just not a risk they'll want to take. With a heavy heart Ares chooses the option that lets him keep the thing he's worked for for years and the place he loves even if it means selling out his principles, he bans you. You try to appeal but to no avail, he has made his decision and it is his right to remove you from the forum for any reason you won't change his mind and no one has the power to overrule him. So you leave, but all hope is not lost, you can go to other gaming sites! But they quickly ban you to, either having been warned by this concerned member or by having him track you down and tell whatever site you choose to join the same story. You have now been completely removed from all forums you love, your audience can no longer enjoy your content, A significant portion of your time and effort has just gone up in smoke and possibly may have been scrubbed from existence, you can't even defend yourself because you have no voice to argue with. All of this because someone said you did something with no evidence.

Now let's play back that scenario a few times with different variables. In one universe you did not cause god to look away, this person was merely lying. Maybe they don't like your stuff, maybe you got into an argument with them and they swore vengeance, maybe they're just an asshole who gets off fucking people over. In another universe you did choose to do this thing but can't fathom why people would react so bad to something so innocuous, is eating pineapple pizza really so terrible? Does enjoying Teen Titans Go in your free time make you a monster? Why do people care so much that you put toilet paper on the dispenser the wrong way? In a final universe you did do this horrid act, but it's not a crime, it's not a violation of the rules, it has nothing at all to do with MnM but you're still completely barred from it because of it. What does it matter if you spread the good word about Scientology? What you and your cousin do in the Alabama wilderness while hiking is none of their business! So you have a large number of frightening and somewhat disturbing fetishes, who doesn't have a kink or two, it doesn't relate to MnM and stop kink shaming!
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Re: Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by Ares »

Davies wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:36 am Except that being published is not a right, but a privilege, and so denying it to someone ("cancelling them" in your vulgar idiom) is not a crime.
RainOnTheSun wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:28 am It's so, so weird to me when some people treat "canceling" someone as a nuclear option when all it really means is that people on the internet don't like you.
The problem here is that it what "Cancel Culture" can basically be classified as a combination of "Targeted Harassment", "Deplatforming" and "Trying to Get Someone Fired". It's a group of people (either a legitimately large group or a small group with using various means to appear like a large one) using social media to target a specific person, their family or their place of employment, and try to make their lives objectively worse than they were before. I mean, "people on the internet not liking you" is what some people have gone before the UN to describe as a constant barrage of negativity that affects their lives. People who advised them that they should mute people that act that way, get "thicker skin", told "don't feed the trolls" and such were condemned as horrible people denying the existence of those being harassed.

So the difference between "Cancel Culture" and "Online Harassment" largely seems to be whether you agree or not with the person being targeted. Except, again, this is actually affecting people's livelhoods. We have people combing through 5, 8 or 10 year old social media posts looking for ammunition to cost people their jobs. We have people willing to make false allegations against others that have cost the accused work, or who were brought in specifically to try and deny someone the right to a position.

There's a reason why things like Tortious Interference and Wrongful Termination exist, after all.

What muddles the waters even further is that not all offenses are treated equally. Several payment processors and crowdfunding platforms have shown a willingness to not only deplatform people for offenses, but also choose to enforce the rules by which they do so arbitrarily. Some people have been kicked off of a platform for their word choices said off the platform, while others have used those same words on the platform itself and not been banned. Social media is okay with statements made towards one group, but when someone simply changed the name of the group to a different one, they got banned for it. And in an age where some industries make use of social media, online payment platforms and similar things for what they do, being denied access to them CAN be a nuclear option.

If the terms of service for these platforms were being enforced equally, it wouldn't be an issue. But it's clear that they aren't, and that's a dangerous precedent, because it shows that some biases are okay.

The idea of someone losing their job also shouldn't be treated lightly. Being locked out of your career for things you might not have done or for things that aren't illegal is no small thing. That's a person's livelyhood. That's how they maintain their home, get fed, and potentially provide for their families.

Being against online harassment yet being okay with cancel culture is a contradictory position, essentially stating that you're okay with some people being bullied while others need to be protected.

The traditional way you got someone fired was simply by not buying their product, leaving a single bad review of said product, and letting the market decide their fate. If they haven't done anything actually illegal, and if they haven't violated policies of their workplace that are enforced equally to everyone, then they should be allowed the same work opportunities as everyone else.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Re: Warren Ellis - Recent Apology / Allegations Disscussion

Post by Ares »

This next part is not done lightly. I hate having to break out the Mod Voice, but I feel it's necessary to remind people of the core rules of this place.
Ares wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:32 pm 1) Respect each other. That is the simplest way to put it. Remember that you're a human being and so are the people you're interacting with on here. Everyone deserves the same respect you yourself desire. The best moderation is self-moderation, so please try to keep things civil. That means:
• No aggressive or passive-aggressive attacks on members here, no matter how indirect or veiled.
• No revealing non-public info on other people, regardless of whether they're a part of this community or not.
• No harassment or trolling of members here.
If you respect each other, everything else will largely take care of itself.

3) Acknowledge other people are going to have different views than yourself, and do your best to respect said views. It's likely someone will say something about a topic that offends you. The moderation staff is not here to protect you from that. What someone finds offensive, no one can control. The decision to be offensive towards an individual person on here is something you can and must control.
Echoes has no politics of its own. We do not discriminate against anyone based on who they are or what they believe. The most important thing is how we treat each other. And I feel that the following posts do not respect the poster they were directed at or the rules of this message board.

So.
saint_matthew wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:23 am The plural of allegation isn't evidence, it's allegations. Allegations are easy, especially ones made on the internet. Allow me to demonstrate, I allege you have sex with hamsters.

See how easy that allegation was for me to make. It cost me nothing, it took no effort & there is practically nothing you could do to me for making that allegation & to my knowledge the allegation is entirely 100% fictional.
See Rule #1. You can make a point without being passive aggressive.
Davies wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:36 am Except that being published is not a right, but a privilege, and so denying it to someone ("cancelling them" in your vulgar idiom) is not a crime.
See Rule #1. Take a few days away from the board.
Scots Dragon wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:31 am Why are you so invested anyway? Warren Ellis is not likely to have sex with you, dude.
Scots Dragon wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:44 am Neutrality is a possible position to take. Stating that Ellis is clearly innocent of wrongdoing on a moral/ethical level as saint_matthew did is taking a clear side and thus making its own accusation against all of the women in question.
This isn't easy for me. I'm a pretty hands off moderator, I like to believe in the idea that once you establish some ground rules, most people can follow said rules and get along with minimal enforcement. I don't like being an authority figure, and I like that in the almost 4 years this place has been in operation, I've never had to ban anyone permanently that wasn't a spam bot.

But I feel at this point you've well established a pattern of behavior, you've been warned multiple times for past infractions, and unfortunately at this point I have to conclude that the negativity you bring here outweighs the positive. And I don't say that lightly. I appreciate the energy you injected into the Discord, I enjoyed finding common ground on topics we agreed on, and I was looking forward to your build thread.

But comments like this, the ones you've made in the past and your behavior in general tell me that you aren't going to change. And if it hasn't already, it's going to drive people away.

So, to paraphrase Winston from John Wick: Scots Dragon. Your membership to Echoes of the Multiverse has been, by thine own hand, revoked.

Best of luck to you in where your journey takes you from here.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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