Rules Regarding Removable

A place to discuss game rules, homebrew systems and the like.
EpicEclipse
Posts: 1546
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:02 pm

The use of ANY flaw gives a point advantage over someone who doesn't use a flaw. That is a silly argument to make.

Flynnarrel
Posts: 2275
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:23 pm

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Flynnarrel » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:29 pm

Not what I was getting at.

okay.

If I have 2 extra power points to spend in my build, Is putting them in a 6 point, Easily Removable gun (6points 'rounds up' as 10 so 2 applications of Easily Removable, so-4, 6-4=2) the better choice?

Do I have an advantage in points-to-power over the person who gets a two point power or even a Limited 4 point power? Especially at lower levels where every point counts.

If your answer is something like 'no because anyone can choose get their 6 point device for 2 points' then I argue that should be a red flag that this interpretation is either incorrect or simply overpowered, poorly designed.

This won't stop you from submitting characters like that. It's certainly not as exploitative as the 'armchair psychic' with perception ranged powers and long range ESP. But I feel, and maybe others will as well, that it IS exploitative. It encourages people to make character choices that don't necessarily fit their character concept because it's TOO GOOD not to. This is why I stopped playing DnD. Because there was a 'right' way to build an effective character. Other ways... the ones that did a point or two less damage or didn't hit quite as often had a negative impact within a party especially when someone else consistently gets the extra point or hits just that much more. Maybe this hasn't been everyone's experience or maybe this resonates with some readers. But you asked me why this matters, this is your answer.

But wait, I'm still subject to disarm, you might say. What if it's a hand-held datapad that provides 12 points of skills? Or a Communication Gizmo that lets you speak and understand all languages? How about a magical wand that gives Movement powers that you wouldn't use in combat? A gem that turns someone invisible to vision/auditory? That frees up other points, has a low chance of being in a situation to BE disarmed and is otherwise a boon to any build.
"Something pithy this way comes."

FuzzyBoots
Posts: 756
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by FuzzyBoots » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:52 pm

Removable as it stands is fine. I just disagree on the idea that the clause is meant to round up the total cost before determining the discount. One of the things I liked about 3e was increased Device granularity. Given the examples in the books, I think it's pretty clear that Green Ronin doesn't round up before multiplying to get the discount.

*shrug* That's where I stand.

EpicEclipse
Posts: 1546
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:02 am

My answer to your question about turning 2 spare points into a 6 point device is this; is the device breaking the game? Is this method being used multiple times to save a lot of points?

If it is being used on a single device with a power that doesn't have game breaking potential like most of your examples, I say who cares? If the power is potentially game breaking like the 12 skill points, then the player should be asked not to do it as they should any potentially game breaking power. If the mechanic is being used for multiple different powers, I would suggest the person consolidate them into a single device and not exploit removable.

EpicEclipse
Posts: 1546
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:08 am

FuzzyBoots wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:52 pm
Removable as it stands is fine. I just disagree on the idea that the clause is meant to round up the total cost before determining the discount. One of the things I liked about 3e was increased Device granularity. Given the examples in the books, I think it's pretty clear that Green Ronin doesn't round up before multiplying to get the discount.

*shrug* That's where I stand.
My point was if you round up the total cost or the divided value the result is the same. And many examples in the books DO round up, including the power armor used as an example under the flaw itself, so it's not so clear as you state what Green Ronin intended aside from specific verbage to round up. At that point, any instance they round down are incorrect on their part and may be a byproduct or hold over of a change in the mechanic whether it was tweaked toward rounding up because they as the developers felt that was what was more balanced or some other reason, specific always trumps generalized.

User avatar
L-Space
Posts: 727
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 pm
Location: Nebraska

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by L-Space » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:29 am

Flynnarrel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:29 pm
Not what I was getting at.

okay.

If I have 2 extra power points to spend in my build, Is putting them in a 6 point, Easily Removable gun (6points 'rounds up' as 10 so 2 applications of Easily Removable, so-4, 6-4=2) the better choice?

Do I have an advantage in points-to-power over the person who gets a two point power or even a Limited 4 point power? Especially at lower levels where every point counts.

If your answer is something like 'no because anyone can choose get their 6 point device for 2 points' then I argue that should be a red flag that this interpretation is either incorrect or simply overpowered, poorly designed.
I feel like you answered your own questions here and that's why you wouldn't round up 6 to 10 points. Honestly, I've never seen anyone else even suggest rounding up the point total, they always round up the result.
Flynnarrel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:29 pm
This won't stop you from submitting characters like that. It's certainly not as exploitative as the 'armchair psychic' with perception ranged powers and long range ESP. But I feel, and maybe others will as well, that it IS exploitative. It encourages people to make character choices that don't necessarily fit their character concept because it's TOO GOOD not to. This is why I stopped playing DnD. Because there was a 'right' way to build an effective character. Other ways... the ones that did a point or two less damage or didn't hit quite as often had a negative impact within a party especially when someone else consistently gets the extra point or hits just that much more. Maybe this hasn't been everyone's experience or maybe this resonates with some readers. But you asked me why this matters, this is your answer.

But wait, I'm still subject to disarm, you might say. What if it's a hand-held datapad that provides 12 points of skills? Or a Communication Gizmo that lets you speak and understand all languages? How about a magical wand that gives Movement powers that you wouldn't use in combat? A gem that turns someone invisible to vision/auditory? That frees up other points, has a low chance of being in a situation to BE disarmed and is otherwise a boon to any build.
If they're making decisions that don't fit the character concept then the GM has the right (some would say obligation) to not allow it for that character.

As for the devices that won't be put into disarming situations, they're still items and would be subject to being damaged, stolen, dropped, misplaced etc.

edit: typo
Last edited by L-Space on Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Formerly luketheduke86

EpicEclipse
Posts: 1546
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:02 am

@L-Space: Finally someone who gets where I am coming from here.

But rounding up the point total brings out the same result in the end.

16 / 5 = 3.something and rounds up to 4.
16 rounded to the next 5 is 20, then 20 / 5 = 4. Then double the result for easily removable.

It's just a roundabout way to do the math a bit easier while still ending with an accurate result.

It's like people are seeing that removable can be exploited, and rather than just focusing on making sure players aren't exploiting it, as they do for things like the arm chair psychic, they are trying to "fix" it.

Flynnarrel
Posts: 2275
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:23 pm

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Flynnarrel » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:11 pm

EpicEclipse wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:02 am
It's like people are seeing that removable can be exploited, and rather than just focusing on making sure players aren't exploiting it, as they do for things like the arm chair psychic, they are trying to "fix" it.
Any suggestions for GMs to make sure players aren't exploiting this version of Removable?
"Something pithy this way comes."

FuzzyBoots
Posts: 756
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by FuzzyBoots » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:49 pm

EpicEclipse wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:02 am
It's like people are seeing that removable can be exploited, and rather than just focusing on making sure players aren't exploiting it, as they do for things like the arm chair psychic, they are trying to "fix" it.
I am not personally worried about "exploits". I just like the math better when there's a difference between a 16 point device and a 20 point device in terms of the discount. And having this "change" be in an exclusive version that's not reflected in errata... that feels like someone walking into a D&D session and saying that their copy of the Player's Handbook has a comma in a different place, so their character operates differently.

By the by, I finally got a chance to look at the example you gave of them rounding up the power point total instead of the fraction, and I don't know that I totally agree that that's what they're doing. They are doing a Removable set of armor, where the result comes out the same either way (98 pp / 5 is 19.6, which rounds up to 20). If it were a 98 pp Easily Removable device, it would turn out the same either way. At 97, you would see a difference (the 38.8 rounding up to 39 versus 39.2 rounding up to 40).

And, like I said, I like just plain rounding, which further expands the difference (and eliminates the whole thing where any 1 PP Removable device is free, although I'd laugh at any player trying to pull that),but that's supported by neither interpretation. I can understand them adding the "rounded up" interpretation, because the default logic in the game is to always round down for everything other than Vulnerable (which is actually a side effect of how they did things in 2E, where again, everything rounded down, but it was the penalty that got rounded down there), standard d20 reasoning. They probably added the "round up" because some GM out there looked at the original text, and someone's 19 pp Device, and said "Well, it says per 5 pp. You only have 3, so your Removable would be 3 pp and your Easily removeable would be 6 pp", which is counter to how they tried to change those structures to no longer operate on quanta of 5 pp.

:) Ultimately, it's whatever you want to do as a GM. It's not like we have an Official Rules Question forum anymore where these things get answers.

FuzzyBoots
Posts: 756
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by FuzzyBoots » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:56 pm

Flynnarrel wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:11 pm
Any suggestions for GMs to make sure players aren't exploiting this version of Removable?
As stated in my post to EpicEclipse, I don't really think there's an "exploit" here for the most part, even if you go back to the 2E method of considering Removable in 5 pp quanta. The worst you might get is a player trying to argue that their 1 PP Removable device should be free since the reduction rounds up to a 1 PP discount (or arguing they should get a power point back if it's Easily Removable) but that's as easy as pointing them to the guideline that, no matter how many Flaws or Quirks a power has, it doesn't go below 1 PP. Or simply applying Rule 0 and laughing and telling them that was a good joke.

I suppose some would argue point-shaving, but at 1-2 PP total per device that could be shaved, there really isn't much scope to the problem.

EpicEclipse
Posts: 1546
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:04 pm

Same advise for making sure someone isn't exploiting anything really.

Like I mentioned before, someone throwing in a lot of low cost devices should probably be asked to consolidate them into a single 'utility belt' type of device.

As L-Space suggested as well, if it doesn't really fit the rest of how the character theme seems to be going, then it should probably be questioned.

If it is being used to get 6pp worth of power on something that could be potentially game breaking, then I would say the GM objectively has a bigger issue there. Even if removable is being used on the single thing it make thematic sense as a device, the problem is the power itself, not that it has removable attached to it.

So basically, the same stuff I have l been saying all along. :/
At 97, you would see a difference (the 38.8 rounding up to 39 versus 39.2 rounding up to 40).


Ahhh... I see. Not sure where the 39.2 comes from.. but 97 / 5 is 19.4 which is 38.8 doubled, but if the 19.4 is rounded up first it becomes 40 as it is when youbriund up 97 to the nearest interval of 5. If It's rounded off is 38. I hadn't given it enough consideration I suppose, so I suppose it is important to know exactly what is being rounded up.

Also, the hero handbook explicitly states flat point flaws cannot reduce a power cost below 1pp. There are no free powers.

Flynnarrel
Posts: 2275
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:23 pm

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Flynnarrel » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:13 am

FuzzyBoots wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:56 pm
I suppose some would argue point-shaving, but at 1-2 PP total per device that could be shaved, there really isn't much scope to the problem.

At a PL 12 or even PL 10 game, it may not mean much, but a PL 3 or a PL 5 game, those points are greatly treasured.

Agree or no?
"Something pithy this way comes."

FuzzyBoots
Posts: 756
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by FuzzyBoots » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:55 am

Flynnarrel wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:13 am
FuzzyBoots wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:56 pm
I suppose some would argue point-shaving, but at 1-2 PP total per device that could be shaved, there really isn't much scope to the problem.

At a PL 12 or even PL 10 game, it may not mean much, but a PL 3 or a PL 5 game, those points are greatly treasured.

Agree or no?
Disagree. Most characters don't even have many devices, so it really does tend to be 1-2 total, and those get shaved in other areas while the lingering vulnerability of the device remains.

Jabroniville
Posts: 9392
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Jabroniville » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:22 am

LOL, this whole time I haven't been rounding up. My version of the 3e Rulebook doesn't include "Rounded Up", but actually DOES round up for the example given (98 points gets a 20-point discount, instead of 19). It's only a single point of difference, so it's not a big deal to me.

I personally wouldn't give guys a HUGE discount by "rounding up to the nearest 5" (is that what people are talking about doing, here?). I assumed it means "round up to the nearest whole number", ie. no decimals.
You have to have 5 points before you put on removable.
1-4pp, no flaw
5-9pp, -1 removable/-2 easily removable
10-14pp, -2/-4
15-19pp, -3/-6
and so on and so on.
This is the way I've been doing it since I started 3rd Edition.

EpicEclipse
Posts: 1546
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:54 pm

Same here, UNTIL they released an updated rulebook with a clarification on removable. It's not even an errata release, but printed in the official rulebook.

And I agree, it's usually just 1 or 2 points difference so I don't know why everyone is bent out of shape on the change and insists on following the old book which the designers have indicated by printing a clarification, was being used "incorrectly" in the first place.

I put "incorrectly" in quotes because at the time it was correct as written. It didn't necessarily like it because it did make small devices pointless when all you needed was a small device for the concept. Always ended up forcing extra points in to even bother making it a device.

At the end of the day, the rules are written and pretty clear (aside from whay exactly is rounded up since it was pointed out it makes a difference). If gms want to houserule to the old pre-clarification version, that is their perogitive. The only thing I take any issue with is insisting that the pre-clarification rule is "right" and the clarified version is "wrong" which is what I see a thread like this is trying to argue.

Post Reply