Rules Regarding Removable

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Flynnarrel
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Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Flynnarrel » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:33 pm

In the .pdf copies I have of Mutants and Masterminds Core Rules 3E and DC Adventures Heroes Handbook the rules for Removable are written as
REMOVABLE POINT VALUE
Removable applies to the power as a whole and not individual
effects, although it may apply to a power with only
one effect. The flaw is worth –1 point (–2 points for Easily
Removable) per 5 total power points of the power’s final
cost, after applying extras and flaws to its effects.
In some copies that others are working from the rules of Removable seem to be:
Removable applies to the power as a whole and not individual effects, although it may apply to a power with only one effect. The flaw is worth –1 point (–2 points for Easily Removable) per 5 total power points of the power’s final cost, rounded up, after applying extras and flaws to its effects.

That 'rounded up' seems to be a source of contention.

I wanted to ask if there was official documentation saying which version is correct?
Which version is more common among the players here?


And if the 'rounded up' version is correct/official, would you interpret that as:

You have to have 5 points before you put on removable.
1-4pp, no flaw
5-9pp, -1 removable/-2 easily removable
10-14pp, -2/-4
15-19pp, -3/-6
and so on and so on.

Or.

1-5pp, -1 removable/-2 easily removable (with the caveat that it can't go below 1)
6-10pp, -2/-4 (because you 'round up' to the next iteration of 5)
11-15pp, -3/-6
16-20pp. -4/-8
and so on and so on.

Please submit your thoughts.
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Flynnarrel
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Flynnarrel » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:45 pm

I learned that the 'rounded up' comes from the 'Penultimate Edition'.
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EpicEclipse
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:26 pm

Penultimate Edition is the 10 year anniversary edition of the book and the most recent printing(that I am aware of), making its rules the most up to date and trumping older printings in the case of inconsistancies or any applied erratas or rules updates.

Flynnarrel
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Flynnarrel » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:53 pm

In the sample character builds for that edition how do they handle Removable?

In my copy of the DCA book it has under green lantern: Power Ring: 132 points, Removable (–26 points) • 106 points
Which seems to be pretty telling as to how they use Removable unless I'm missing something.

And in Core Rules 3E the Gadgeteer has a force belt that comes out 21 points of powers with Removable (-4)
and a weapon master with a couple of 7 point total powers with Easily Removable (-2) on them.



Though, confusingly enough and in the spirit of impartiality, the example build has two devices:
Cowl: Senses 3 (Extended Vision, Low-Light Vision, Radio), Removable (–1 point) • 2 points
Wings of the Rook: Flight 5, Subtle (sound baffling), Wings; Movement 1 (Safe Fall), Removable (–2 points) • 6 points
So I'm not sure how to reconcile all of this.
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EpicEclipse
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:16 pm

The example under removable itself uses a 98 point power armor with -20 points from removable.

It looks like those two gadgets use the updated version. As for DC Adventures, it IS the first printed version of 3E, so seeing some inconsistency is understandable with errata and rules clarifications happening over time.

Flynnarrel
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Flynnarrel » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:50 pm

A hand-held device built for 16 points of powers is -8 of Easily Removable, as much as a Limit that should reduce it's efficiency by half.

Mutants and Masterminds has always had powers and combinations and builds that shouldn't be allowed in play (e.g. Time Stop). I hope people consider this one of those as well.
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L-Space
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by L-Space » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:17 pm

Flynnarrel wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:50 pm
A hand-held device built for 16 points of powers is -8 of Easily Removable, as much as a Limit that should reduce it's efficiency by half.

Mutants and Masterminds has always had powers and combinations and builds that shouldn't be allowed in play (e.g. Time Stop). I hope people consider this one of those as well.
Well -6 points from Easily Removable from that example, so a little less than a Limit. For easily removable all it takes is a successful Disarm or Grab check and you not only lose those abilities, but your enemy can now possibly use it against you. Between that and certain afflictions/complications that can occur, I actually feel like the price is reasonable. Certainly don't feel like it should be banned from play.
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Flynnarrel
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Flynnarrel » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:37 pm

Since it's 1 point over 15, the argument is that it 'rounds up' and is considered 20, so -8 from Easily Removeable. (I agree that it should be -6 but there's an alternate interpretation in the 'latest' book).
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L-Space
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by L-Space » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:16 pm

Flynnarrel wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:37 pm
Since it's 1 point over 15, the argument is that it 'rounds up' and is considered 20, so -8 from Easily Removeable. (I agree that it should be -6 but there's an alternate interpretation in the 'latest' book).
Oh, I apologize I misread/misinterpreted what was written, but I see what you're talking about now. In that case, I've never 'rounded up' the 5pp base cost, but rounded the result of the base cost times the removable flaw. So in the Power ring example 132pp base times -1/5 equals 26.4 rounded to -26 points taken off. Though I guess if you go by the rules as written it should be rounded up to -27.
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Miracle
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Miracle » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:44 am

Seeing as the Deluxe Handbook is the only book mentioning rounded up, has there been confirmation from an official source that this is the correct interpretation?

FuzzyBoots
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by FuzzyBoots » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:02 pm

I think it's really just a matter of properly placing the clause. Given the way the prior books established Removeable, I'd argue that "rounded up" applies to "The flaw is worth –1 point (–2 points for Easily Removable) per 5 total power points of the power’s final cost", not to "the power’s final cost". So the Deluxe edition's only difference was to indicate that you do get the fraction (1/5 or 2/5) of the powers total cost, and round that up before subtracting.

I personally prefer "rounding" instead of "rounding up" because it changes the break points to something more rounded.

Flynnarrel
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Flynnarrel » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:15 am

FuzzyBoots wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:02 pm
I think it's really just a matter of properly placing the clause. Given the way the prior books established Removeable, I'd argue that "rounded up" applies to "The flaw is worth –1 point (–2 points for Easily Removable) per 5 total power points of the power’s final cost", not to "the power’s final cost". So the Deluxe edition's only difference was to indicate that you do get the fraction (1/5 or 2/5) of the powers total cost, and round that up before subtracting.

I personally prefer "rounding" instead of "rounding up" because it changes the break points to something more rounded.
So with Rounding...

An 18 point, Removable device would be 14 points, 18/5 rounds up to 4 18-4=14
A 17 point Removable device would be 14 points. 17/5 rounds down to 3 17-3=14

Is that it? Could totally be a valid interpretation.
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EpicEclipse
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:42 am

Flynnarrel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:15 am
Is that it? Could totally be a valid interpretation.
That is not an "interpretation", just an alternative deviation from what is written in the book.

What I don't understand is why some players think it's unfair or broken as it is written. What is the huge underlying fear here that causes them to rail so hard against simply accepting the rule as it is written. it doesn't change the game in any huge way than anyone is used to aside from small cost devices actually being buildable with a cost reduction from a flaw as flaws are designed to do.

I've heard someone say to treat them as a complication for being lost, but that is ridiculous to even imagine getting a hero point for losing some 1 or 2pp power device. It hardly qualifies as a powerloss complication for something so minor.

So what I pose is the question: Why is it such a big deal to you that the flaw has been clarified to being rounded up? How does that ruin the game or make a character just simply too powerful to allow?

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L-Space
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by L-Space » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:18 pm

Flynnarrel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:15 am
So with Rounding...

An 18 point, Removable device would be 14 points, 18/5 rounds up to 4 18-4=14
A 17 point Removable device would be 14 points. 17/5 rounds down to 3 17-3=14

Is that it? Could totally be a valid interpretation.
Yea, that's how that would work. It's not always "fair", but no rules set really is fair. Just like how 9 points of Impervious blocks just as much damage as 10 points of Impervious.
Last edited by L-Space on Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Flynnarrel
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Flynnarrel » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:48 pm

EpicEclipse wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:42 am
Flynnarrel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:15 am
Is that it? Could totally be a valid interpretation.
That is not an "interpretation", just an alternative deviation from what is written in the book.

What I don't understand is why some players think it's unfair or broken as it is written. What is the huge underlying fear here that causes them to rail so hard against simply accepting the rule as it is written. it doesn't change the game in any huge way than anyone is used to aside from small cost devices actually being buildable with a cost reduction from a flaw as flaws are designed to do.

I've heard someone say to treat them as a complication for being lost, but that is ridiculous to even imagine getting a hero point for losing some 1 or 2pp power device. It hardly qualifies as a powerloss complication for something so minor.

So what I pose is the question: Why is it such a big deal to you that the flaw has been clarified to being rounded up? How does that ruin the game or make a character just simply too powerful to allow?
You seem to acknowledge that it gives device wielders an advantage over those that do not use this application of the system. Is this correct?
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