Rules Regarding Removable

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EpicEclipse
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:47 pm

Wait, you DON'T think that is the best mechanical solution regardless of It's official status of RAW or RAI?

What do you think is best mechanical solution to the issues with removable then?
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Chris Brady
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Chris Brady » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:26 am

If my players make a power Removable, they are telling me (and I've confirmed this with them, of course) that it's OK for them to lose access to said power, from time to time.

After all, sometimes, Tony Stark doesn't go partying with his Ironman suit within reach, yeah?

EpicEclipse
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:37 am

Chris Brady wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:26 am
If my players make a power Removable, they are telling me (and I've confirmed this with them, of course) that it's OK for them to lose access to said power, from time to time.

After all, sometimes, Tony Stark doesn't go partying with his Ironman suit within reach, yeah?
In my opinion, adding any flaw that a GM can influence is giving the GM permission to do so. If I make a blaster gun, I expect there to be someone sometimes using disarm. If I've got a power armor, I expect there to be situations where I do not have access to it, even if only temporarily. The reason removable is a flaw at all is that it gives the GM license to have you separated from your devices sometimes.

It doesn't have to be EVERY game, but throwing in a situation once in a while to remind them their stuff is removable is never a bad idea.
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FuzzyBoots
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by FuzzyBoots » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:07 am

{nods} The tricky part, in general, is finding a way to do so without making the character useless. In a solo adventure, that's not so bad, since you basically just scale the PL down so that Tony Stark, outside of his armor, can deal with the PL 2 thugs. When your guy is constantly palling around with his PL 10-12 teammates, it gets trickier, although one option is disabling some or all of the features rather than taking everything away and allowing staged repair of the systems. Someone in a Battlesuit who has his Blast 10 up and running may be able to contribute even if he doesn't have Flight back. Or maybe he can take advantage of the Protection 12 built into it, but until he fixes the movement system, it's locked in place. A lower skill check might give him the ability to move the upper torso, allowing for aiming the Repulsor Cannons, but not fly away.

Similarly, I'm a big fan of attempts to take out part of a battlesuit's system facing a Toughness save lower than the entire suit (perhaps with a defense penalty to model going for a smaller target).

EpicEclipse
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:37 am

Oh yeah, for sure. If taking their stuff, even temporarily, is going to have them sitting there twiddling their thumbs, not a good time. But if you can do it at a time where they could be of use doing something else?
Epic's Mechanic Shop - Making mechanical magic. Current project: Monster Hunter World Weapons. (New weapon added May 23, 2018)
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Chris Brady
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Chris Brady » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:57 am

EpicEclipse wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:37 am
Chris Brady wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:26 am
If my players make a power Removable, they are telling me (and I've confirmed this with them, of course) that it's OK for them to lose access to said power, from time to time.

After all, sometimes, Tony Stark doesn't go partying with his Ironman suit within reach, yeah?
In my opinion, adding any flaw that a GM can influence is giving the GM permission to do so. If I make a blaster gun, I expect there to be someone sometimes using disarm. If I've got a power armor, I expect there to be situations where I do not have access to it, even if only temporarily. The reason removable is a flaw at all is that it gives the GM license to have you separated from your devices sometimes.

It doesn't have to be EVERY game, but throwing in a situation once in a while to remind them their stuff is removable is never a bad idea.
I confirm, because I want to make sure my players know this. Is all.

IneloquentElephant
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by IneloquentElephant » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:20 pm

Ah, I found more examples in the book. Apparently, these example support NONE of the options given, and instead aim for a 'round to the nearest'. There is even an example that shows Removable granting no bonus for the Flaw. There are more examples, but these were the most relevant ones.

Deluxe Hero's Handbook pg. 48 wrote:Options
To customize, choose one of the following options with no change in point total:
• Strong Warrior: +2 Strength, –2 Fighting (including –2 Parry).
• Weapon Warrior: -3 Strength, Unique Weapon (Strength-based Damage 3, Penetrating 5, Easily Removable), also choose two additional Advantages from the list given in the Advantages section
Weapon Warrior is supposed to be a cost wash, so let us look at that. -3 Strength is a total loss of 6 points. Two Advantages equates to 2 points. Unique Weapon (Strength-based Damage 3, Penetrating 5, Easily Removable) must then be 4 points. Since the Damage and Penetrating are 8 points, Easily Removable reduces the value by 4. This invalidates my Option 1.
Deluxe Hero's Handbook pg. 49 wrote:Choose two of the following • 10 points
• Blocking: Deflect 7, Easily Removable (weapon or shield, –2 points)
• Crippling Strike: Affliction 7 (Resisted by Fortitude; Impaired, Hindered, Incapacitated), Easily Removable (weapon, –2 points)
• Fast: Quickness 3, Speed 2 (8 MPH)
...
The above requires each power beneath the header to be no more than 5 points. Fast has both Quickness 3 and Speed 2 for a total of 5 points. Crippling Strike has Affliction 7 for 7 points with Easily Removable for at least -2 points (it could be -4 points for a total of 3 points). Blocking has Deflect 7 for 7 points with the Flaw Easily Removable for only 2 points. Additionally there is the option for Gadgets and Improvised Weapons that are both 7 point Easily Removable powers.
It should be noted that in this case that all interpretations for Easily Removable work here as it is not REQUIRED that the individual powers listed are 5 point powers, but the implication is that they are flawed to 5 points. This would seem to invalidate Option 2. But, as I mentioned, there is no harm is losing points. So let us continue.
Deluxe Hero's Handbook pg. 57 wrote:Ability Amplifier: Enhanced Defenses 16 (Dodge 4, Fortitude 4, Parry 4, Will 4), Removable (-3 points) • 13 points
Armored Shell: Impervious Protection 8, Removable (-3 points) • 13 points
Sealed Systems: Immunity 10 (Life Support), Removable (-2 points) • 8 points
Deluxe Hero's Handbook pg. 57 wrote:Sensors: Senses 2 (Extended Vision, Infravision), Removable (-0 points) • 2 points
Deluxe Hero's Handbook pg. 70 wrote:Energy Projector Device: Ranged Damage 8, Accurate 2;
AE: Ranged Affliction 8 (Resisted and Overcome by Fortitude; Dazed Stunned, Incapacitated), Accurate 2;
AE: Ranged Multiattack Damage 5, Accurate 3;
AE: Close Cone Area Dazzle 9; Removable (-4 points) • 17 points
These, I believe, are a few examples that show rounding down. It shows two powers that are 16 point powers flawed down 3 points. This shows rounding DOWN, not up. The Sensors power shows NO reduction in cost for the Flaw. The last shows a 21 point power reduced by only 4 points (rounding down). This invalidates my Option 2.

If the intent of the authors was to clarify, they did a poor job. It seems the valid way to build the Flaw Removable is rounding to the nearest.


Also...
Deluxe Hero's Handbook pg. 201 wrote:The flaw is worth –1 point (–2 points for Easily Removable) per 5 total power points of the power’s final cost, rounded up, after applying extras and flaws to its effects.
This is a quote from the first column of Removable.
Deluxe Hero's Handbook pg. 201 wrote:The flaw is worth –1 point (–2 points for Easily Removable) per 5 total power points of the power’s final cost, after applying extras and flaws to its effects.
This is a quote from the second column of Removable. It seems they forgot to add the rounding term to the second description of the Flaw.

I should note that I do not have the Deluxe Hero's Handbook (I have physical copies of the DCA books), and I am working from a friends tablet, so I am unsure if this is the most recent version of the PDF.

EpicEclipse
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:04 pm

Yup. Sure do love their inconsistency.
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Jabroniville
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Jabroniville » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:06 am

See, I've always rounded down. I never read a version that indicated you round up- I just figured you should use Equipment for stuff under 5 points.

But math and editing is hard. Never mind that the writers themselves often get rules incorrect.

Jabroniville
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Jabroniville » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:16 am

so I went and asked a GR freelancer what he thought:


Honestly? I was never specifically given any instruction on the matter, so when I did builds I always just went with grade school math-if a power/trait cost 3 points or more, it was "eligible"for the equipment points shaving; 2 pts or fewer, the answer was no.

You would likely get different answers depending on WHICH GR editor/developer was asked at any specific time, though in fairness most other superhero rpg systems (CHAMPIONS, the new MIGHTY PROTECTORS game, etc.) face similar interpretation issues-if they're flexible enough to build all sorts of four-color super-beings, then there are inevitably going to be rules loopholes or points of confusion.

EpicEclipse
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by EpicEclipse » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:25 am

Jabroniville wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:16 am
so I went and asked a GR freelancer what he thought:


Honestly? I was never specifically given any instruction on the matter, so when I did builds I always just went with grade school math-if a power/trait cost 3 points or more, it was "eligible"for the equipment points shaving; 2 pts or fewer, the answer was no.

You would likely get different answers depending on WHICH GR editor/developer was asked at any specific time, though in fairness most other superhero rpg systems (CHAMPIONS, the new MIGHTY PROTECTORS game, etc.) face similar interpretation issues-if they're flexible enough to build all sorts of four-color super-beings, then there are inevitably going to be rules loopholes or points of confusion.
That's kind of hilarious actually, that even the development team didn't even necessarily know what they were supposed to be done when it came to the examples, which really just shows they can't be fully trusted as rote.

But you're right, the more open-ended the system is to create characters, the more space there is for loop-holes and confusion. Ultimately, it's a game, and games are to have fun, so for that, a table should just use whatever makes the group happy.
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Chris Brady
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Re: Rules Regarding Removable

Post by Chris Brady » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:50 pm

I think the key point is keeping it consistent at your gaming table. As long as everyone is happy with the interpretation, it's all good. Right?

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