Attractive

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Miracle
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Attractive

Post by Miracle »

This came up in my game recently, so I thought I'd throw it here. There are two ranks, Attractive and Very Attractive. But the SRD (at least) doesn't say what they're supposed to represent. Is Attractive 'model' and Very Attractive 'supermodel'? Is Attractive 'supermodel' and Very Attractive 'otherworldly'?

Also, I'm sure that it's implied to be about looks, but does it always work? Some people have preferences. The gorgeous six and a half foot orange alien woman with an Amazonian build isn't going to be impressive to, say, Sir Mix-A-Lot (who has made his preferences made known in rhyme!). Or does being that good looking override that?
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Re: Attractive

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Miracle wrote:This came up in my game recently, so I thought I'd throw it here. There are two ranks, Attractive and Very Attractive. But the SRD (at least) doesn't say what they're supposed to represent. Is Attractive 'model' and Very Attractive 'supermodel'? Is Attractive 'supermodel' and Very Attractive 'otherworldly'?
It's all relative. I prefer to think of it the way Jabroniville does in his builds, that it's less about actual looks (because most people are beautiful in comics) but about knowing how to use it. An Attractive person is the sort of person who knows how to flirt and wheedle their way through. A Very Attractive person is the sort who knows how to walk into a room and immediately capture every eye.
Miracle wrote:Also, I'm sure that it's implied to be about looks, but does it always work? Some people have preferences. The gorgeous six and a half foot orange alien woman with an Amazonian build isn't going to be impressive to, say, Sir Mix-A-Lot (who has made his preferences made known in rhyme!). Or does being that good looking override that?
As above, I feel that it's largely a matter of how it's used rather than particular looks, but the general rule is to look at it as about a 50% thing. That usually travels down gender lines, but one could readily make an argument for sexual preference, or even applying Attractive in other areas such as a particularly cute kid (where the 50% kind of falls into the segment of the population who don't particularly feel swayed by adorableness).
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badpenny
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Re: Attractive

Post by badpenny »

Some players will be quite cavalier about the bonus they receive from it and expect it to be there no matter how they [might not] roleplay it. I've seen this probably too many times, "I rolled a 20, and if s/he finds me attractive it's a 24."

That's not necessarily Attractive's fault, mind you. The GM, of course, can grind the player to roleplay it or they don't get the bonus, but I've seen some push back on that akin to the "I don't know how to roleplay being a detective, so that's why I bought up my Investigate skill." There is some truth to that, but still, I find it a rather flimsy Feat.

I wish that Charisma was better operationalized. I'd like to see a mechanic where someone could walk into a room and turn heads, without having to interact because that's what the bonuses are to: interaction skills. The idea of a passive skill roll doesn't cut it for me.

Meh.
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Ken
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Re: Attractive

Post by Ken »

FuzzyBoots wrote:It's all relative. I prefer to think of it the way Jabroniville does in his builds, that it's less about actual looks (because most people are beautiful in comics) but about knowing how to use it. An Attractive person is the sort of person who knows how to flirt and wheedle their way through. A Very Attractive person is the sort who knows how to walk into a room and immediately capture every eye.
...
As above, I feel that it's largely a matter of how it's used rather than particular looks, but the general rule is to look at it as about a 50% thing. That usually travels down gender lines, but one could readily make an argument for sexual preference, or even applying Attractive in other areas such as a particularly cute kid (where the 50% kind of falls into the segment of the population who don't particularly feel swayed by adorableness).
I generally tend to see as there are two types of Attractive 1, and Attractive 2 being the person who has both.

Attractive 1a : the person who knows how to flirt and wheedle their way through
Attractive 1b : the person who walks into a room and catches people's eye, without particularly trying.
Attractive 2 : the person who walks into a room and catches people's eye, without particularly trying BUT ALSO knows how to flirt and wheedle their way through. This pretty much is the person who knows how to walk into a room and immediately capture every eye.

I spent too much time, during both the months preceding my time as a roadie, and my brief stint as a roadie, people watching. Sometimes, when pretty people try to use Persuasion without trying to use their looks to help will have their looks help them anyway. It's the way people are wired.


I had a character who was a talking, sapient, West Highland White Terrier. I gave him Attractive 1. It isn't the usual circumstance for it, but, having seen people react to westies over the years, it seemed appropos.
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Re: Attractive

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Eyeh. I don't don't make people come up with dialogue, whether in PBP or at the table, but I require my players to say what they're doing (which might not be the same thing as what they say they're rolling for as one player at my table learned trying to roll Diplomacy by telling the mayor's bodyguards that if they didn't turn him over, he would be taken). Using Attractive is as easy as saying, "I ask in a sultry voice if he has any vinegar in stock" or even "I use my charms while trying to convince him to help us". It indicates that they're trying to use the Advantage, bit also indicates that they are being flirtatious or seductive with all that entails.
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Re: Attractive

Post by greycrusader »

Ken wrote:
FuzzyBoots wrote:It's all relative. I prefer to think of it the way Jabroniville does in his builds, that it's less about actual looks (because most people are beautiful in comics) but about knowing how to use it. An Attractive person is the sort of person who knows how to flirt and wheedle their way through. A Very Attractive person is the sort who knows how to walk into a room and immediately capture every eye.
...
As above, I feel that it's largely a matter of how it's used rather than particular looks, but the general rule is to look at it as about a 50% thing. That usually travels down gender lines, but one could readily make an argument for sexual preference, or even applying Attractive in other areas such as a particularly cute kid (where the 50% kind of falls into the segment of the population who don't particularly feel swayed by adorableness).
I generally tend to see as there are two types of Attractive 1, and Attractive 2 being the person who has both.

Attractive 1a : the person who knows how to flirt and wheedle their way through
Attractive 1b : the person who walks into a room and catches people's eye, without particularly trying.
Attractive 2 : the person who walks into a room and catches people's eye, without particularly trying BUT ALSO knows how to flirt and wheedle their way through. This pretty much is the person who knows how to walk into a room and immediately capture every eye.

I spent too much time, during both the months preceding my time as a roadie, and my brief stint as a roadie, people watching. Sometimes, when pretty people try to use Persuasion without trying to use their looks to help will have their looks help them anyway. It's the way people are wired.


I had a character who was a talking, sapient, West Highland White Terrier. I gave him Attractive 1. It isn't the usual circumstance for it, but, having seen people react to westies over the years, it seemed appropos.
This is largely my approach when doing builds, though in the case of Attractive 1a (as Ken classes it), this is really more of an "informed trait" in most comics. Largely because nearly ALL heroes and villains are portrayed as tall, exceedingly fit and well built, with chiseled, even features and full heads of hair, EXCEPT for the "monstrous" characters and the bad guys who are bald, beak-nosed, pot-belled, etc. to emphasize their nature as outcasts or misfits. There's the occasional exception such as Wolverine or the new Ms. Marvel, but that's rare. So readers are TOLD Nightwing is much "hotter" than his male peers, or Wonder Woman is more beautiful and statuesque than Black Canary or Hawkwoman, even though there's not much discernible difference on the printed page. There's also a bit of an (almost) all-female category which might be called "striking physical presence"; Power-Girl (usually) and She-Hulk are examples where their out-sized attributes would command attention, but could provoke strong positive and negative reactions from others. Male counterparts might be characters like the Vision, who have "unearthly magnetism."

But then there are the charmers, who fall into the Attractive 1b category; these would include Sue Dibney in the Classic DC (pre-Identity Crisis) universe, Mary Jane Watson ("Face it, Tiger!"), and Green Fire (Beatriz Da Costa) of the old JLI days. Incompetent versions of this type include Booster Gold (who just comes off as vain and fatuous) and The Wasp (Janet Van Dyne's flirting never got her anywhere with other heroes).

But to get up to the Attractive 2 level, characters actually have to be willing and able to use their exceptional looks to coax and seduce others into getting what they want, which is rarer for heroes. Its most common in female villains-the femme fatales and seductresses. Emma Frost (who now likely qualifies as an anti-hero), Catwoman perhaps, Circe, Poison Ivy, and a few others.

BTW, if you go back and look at my entries for the Crime Syndicate of Amerika members in the DC Adventures books, this is one of the differences between Princess Diana/WW and her counterpart Superwoman-the latter gets Attractive 2, because she's shameless and amoral when it comes to using her looks to get what she wants, which is likely why she hooked up with both Ultraman (though she came to loathe him) and Owlman. Of course, her attempt to seduce J'onn J'onzz went nowhere fast (saying you'll "try anything once" really isn't impressive to someone whose mate was a telepathic shape-changer, after all).

All my best.
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badpenny
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Re: Attractive

Post by badpenny »

Attractive is missing a passive component. Giving a bonus to the two skills doesn't cut it. Diplomacy takes a Full Round or more, so getting a bonus doesn't change those mechanics. Take the following scenario:
  • A female crimefighter (with Attractive) is going undercover in a nightclub. She walks up to the entrance line and the bouncer takes one look at her and opens the VIP rope for her and lets her bypass the line altogether.
A bonus to Diplomacy doesn't help because she never interacted. This is all on the NPC. It was his attitude that was passively improved just by looking at her. That's what the mechanics need to give you access to. All the other Feats are built from effects and I don't approve of hand-waving if it can at all be avoided.

To me, you can buy down the action required for Diplomacy (and I prefer the 3e mechanics for Persuasion over 2e's clunky AF Diplomacy mechanics) allowing you to, as a Free Action, make a Persuasion check at range.

All that aside, this is what the Ability (CHA/PRE) should be doing. But Abilities are given short shrift in this game (especially in 3e) and making an Ability check lacks any kind of granularity given how few ranks people buy (especially in 2e).
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greycrusader
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Re: Attractive

Post by greycrusader »

I never thought about the "passive" component of the Attractive feat before, Badpenny, so thank you much for bringing up that little gap in the rules mechanics. Your example is quite good, though I might broaden it further-there are also characters (and real-life individuals!) who can intimidate simply with their physical stature or menacing attitude, and even those who put others at ease with their presence.

So I might suggest a separate feat altogether which indeed does allow characters to use one or more Interaction skills as a free action, though I'd either cap the maximum results of the die roll or make it a ranked feat. I think "Passive Presence" would make an appropriate name, but since you were the one who actually came up with the idea, you should have the "honors", so to speak.

Though one caveat: I don't think "Badpenny Presence" would really fly.

All my best.
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kenseido
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Re: Attractive

Post by kenseido »

You could definitely do something like Well Informed, where the first time you encounter someone attracted to you, you get a free Daze check on them like the feat.
Jabroniville
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Re: Attractive

Post by Jabroniville »

From my design diary:

ATTRACTIVE:
Attractive is it's own deal- it's a big boost in many situations, but it's always iffy to use on a character, to the point where I ALMOST wish the game had never included it at all. I mean, it's COMIC BOOKS- the medium more legendary than friggin' HOLLYWOOD for every person being abnormally beautiful. It's often tempting to just throw it on EVERY female character especially- but I tend to use it only on characters explicitly given as amazingly good-looking, to the point where it has a battlefield effect. Power Girl & Wonder Woman are good examples of distracting beauties that have their looks as plot points (getting 2 ranks of it, even). Jean Grey, Psylocke, Emma Frost & Rogue are likewise all famous for being good-looking in-world, and Kitty Pryde's just so cute you HAVE to use it (if you disagree, you are a horrible judge of everything and I wish death upon you).

But every random Image chick, or just some female characters who don't actively use their looks to their advantage probably can go without it (Firestar, Arclight, etc.). Generally, only PLOT POINT attractive people get this Advantage for me... unless I love them. But even THEN it's difficult to determine exactly WHO is using Attractive, because the Advantage itself has an actual in-game effect, and unless you actually see the character noticeably being better with opposite-gendered characters (like Emma Frost is- most women tend to dislike her instantly), then it's not really HAVING any statistical effect then, is it? Also, for some people, Attractiveness is actually a FLAW rather than a benefit- by being better at dealing with one gender, they're actually WORSE at dealing with their own. A lot of hot women in real life have to put up with a lot of jealousy and annoyance from other women, as do many men (look at how men turned on Leonardo DiCaprio for years after Titanic, or bash Boy Bands in general- women do the same to the Sex Kittens of their era).

Women are more likely to be Attractive than men. This is both a reflection of personal bias, the bias inherent to comics (more Femme Fatales in little clothing than Sexy Dudes), and the fact that men are just plain MORE SUSCEPTIBLE to attractiveness than women in real life- as Chris Rock says- "Women get offered dick EVERY DAY!" I mean, as sexy as Dick Grayson is in the comics, he can't even really USE IT the way M&M does- he's just plain good at lying and persuading EVERYONE, and it'd be inaccurate to show him as being BETTER at it with women. In his case, his Raw Hawtness is a COMPLICATION, as it draws attention to him that he DOESN'T like, with Femme Fatales, Rapey Vigilantes and Annoying Superheroines all following him around and bothering him.
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Re: Attractive

Post by Jabroniville »

Honestly, though, my biggest problem with the Advantage is its NAME- by calling it "Attractive", you open the door for almost every single character in comics for "Hey, I think ______ deserves 'Attractive', because they said in issue #xx that so-and-so was hot one time".

I would rather there be two distinct Advantages: Visually-Appealing/Attractive and Flirt. Having "Flirt" would allow you Emma Frost-like abilities as a Femme Fatale. The other one would probably give you a benefit in social situations (the "Bouncer" thing mentioned above; Ken's example, which I have also seen in real life). I recently watched a Vlog entry by someone who used to play Jasmine at Walt Disney World, and she talks about how she used to be a fair bit heavier when she got married, then lost a lot of weight and got to play "Princess Face Characters"- she talks about how immediately and COMPLETELY the way she was treated changed. Really though, you could call that one a Benefit and probably get away with it.

But honestly, it's something that's handled so haphazardly and randomly in comics (The Invisible Woman is surely attractive- despite having two kids, she's desirable to numerous men. She even has the power to make NAMOR behave! ... but she never uses it like the Advantage implies you should except in an instance like with Namor), AND can depend on one's "Type", as others have said. Statting up an OC or something is probably easier in this regard, but in COMICS? Good luck finding a unanimous answer on "which characters are classified as Attractive or not"- certain writers will push certain other characters- Chris Claremont, for example, thought Rachel Summers was "God's Gift to Men", and so pushed her in that regard in Excalibur, as men flocked to her. Meanwhile, in the time since Excalibur, all the male writers who grew up with Kitty Pryde as "The Girl Next Door" ended up turning HER into that character that all the men desire!

I have literally spent several minutes going back and forth on whether or not one character deserves Attractive or not. For a friggin' 1-point Advantage. I would NEVER spend that much work on something that costs so little in any other instance. The whole thing is actually kind of a nuisance.
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