Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

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badpenny
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Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by badpenny »

Battlesuits have always presented a problem for me since players can come into the game with ~20 points over everyone else and there are no operationalized rules for when the Device itself takes damage.

First, how tough are they? It's varied over the editions. Here's how the Toughness has been defined:
  • 1e: Equal to PL or highest ranked effect
  • 2e: 10 + Device rank
  • 3e: points / 5
For me, the only one that makes sense is 1e.

Second, since you now have two Toughness scores for a player, how do you choose which is damaged when hit? I'd let the player choose. The player can take the hit or let the battlesuit's system be put on the block.

Third, what effects are affected when the Device fails the Toughness check?
Gimmick's Guide to Gadgets 1e, pg. 35 wrote:A device’s abilities degrade as they take damage in much the same way an attack reduces an object’s hardness.
  • If it fails a Damage save, reduce the ranks of all its abilities and its hardness by 1.
  • If it fails this save by more than 5, reduce the ranks of all its abilities and its hardness by 3.
  • If it fails the save by more than 10, reduce the ranks of all its abilities and its hardness by 5 and choose a random ability, extra, or power stunt it provides; it loses that ability.
Any features reduced to +0 or less are rendered inoperative.
Of course, if the player chooses to make their Device Indestructible, they can't shift damage from themselves to their Device, and any GM worth their salt, wouldn't allow a player to both take a substantial discount and not have any way of making the player pay for it (but for taking it away altogether out of combat, which removes it from Flaw territory since those are all meant to be active during combat).
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MetaShaman
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Re: Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by MetaShaman »

If I were GMing a Battlesuit-using character, using their Battlesuit as a seperate entity would simply not be an option for defense: it could offer a Protection Effect which would let it act as armor, but if it didn't have a protection effect linked in it would serve the same purpose as normal clothing for defenses. They couldn't say that their Battlesuit took the damage of the punch, they could say that the armored plating they spent points on adding to their toughness did.

Battlesuits are just a descriptor for removable power-giving items no different than a magic ring, significant debilitating damage to it's systems (nullifying the character's powers through narrative outside of actively removing them from the suit) would be worth hero points. The reason why it's cheaper is because when you beat them into unconsciousness, you can pull them out of their battlesuit, and they no longer have those superpowers, and are significantly easier to deal with and keep contained or whatever nefariousness you intend to promote.

"Easily Removable" is the only time you should worry about a device's hardness, in such a case simply make it's hardness balanced with the PL's acceptable Parry/Dodge/Toughness ratios, based on the user's defenses. If they have a Dodge/Parry of 12 at PL10, then the Device has a Hardness of 8. If they have a Dodge/Parry of 8 the device has a Hardness of 12. After all, it would just be like another defense check for them. Optional exceptions could be non-super weapons and armor bought with Equipment. These are allowed and expected to be broken if mishandled or, say, put in the way of a Doom Laser. They are also easier to replace, as they don't need to be made of a Gold-Titanium alloy or a cosmic symbiote.

Just my take on it though.
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badpenny
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Re: Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by badpenny »

MetaShaman wrote:Battlesuits are just a descriptor for removable power-giving items no different than a magic ring, significant debilitating damage to it's systems (nullifying the character's powers through narrative outside of actively removing them from the suit) would be worth hero points. The reason why it's cheaper is because when you beat them into unconsciousness, you can pull them out of their battlesuit, and they no longer have those superpowers, and are significantly easier to deal with and keep contained or whatever nefariousness you intend to promote.
It's only worth Hero Points if they've taken a Complication. If they've taken a -1 Flaw on 80 points (16 points savings) they are not entitled to receiving an HP when you take their systems off line. No different than when the character with the Platform Flaw falls when they fail a resistance check.

The problem I've repeatedly seen over 1p years playing M&M is the GM who allows the Device into the game and then never makes the player pay for it.

Device really should be a Complication because it's the only one that the GM has exclusive domain over; every other Flaw is self-managed.
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Jabroniville
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Re: Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by Jabroniville »

If GMing a Battlesuit-type character, I would write up a table for the character's suit- numbering from 1 to 20, each one would show a different event that would happen to the suit. And every time the player failed a toughness save big-time, he'd have to roll on the table.

Stuff like: Boot-Jets are out of whack (lower Flight speed & fighting abilities in the air), Armor is cracked (no more Environmental Immunities), Weapon ____ is Disabled, Sensor Powers no longer work, etc. As the player is getting a FAT discount for putting all his points into a Battlesuit, I think that's a fair trade-off.
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badpenny
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Re: Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by badpenny »

Yeah, I think something needs to be actually operationalized. Players with battlesuit type characters are often coming in with a full PL's worth of extra points.
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Tattooedman
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Re: Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by Tattooedman »

Jabroniville wrote:If GMing a Battlesuit-type character, I would write up a table for the character's suit- numbering from 1 to 20, each one would show a different event that would happen to the suit. And every time the player failed a toughness save big-time, he'd have to roll on the table.

Stuff like: Boot-Jets are out of whack (lower Flight speed & fighting abilities in the air), Armor is cracked (no more Environmental Immunities), Weapon ____ is Disabled, Sensor Powers no longer work, etc. As the player is getting a FAT discount for putting all his points into a Battlesuit, I think that's a fair trade-off.
Got to admit that I really like this idea, and if I have a Battlesuit PC I might have to use this.
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:45 pm
LOl- "The Tattooed Man"? What kind of ABSOLUTE DILDO would refer to himself as "The Tattooed Man" :P!?!
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StarGuard
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Re: Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by StarGuard »

Bad GMing isn't really a good reason to house rule though is it? There are a number of Flaws which GMs seem to never call into play. It's up to the GM to create encounters or circumstances where either the character can't or has difficulty accessing the battlesuit.

That said, I also like the pregenerated damage table for battlesuits, but in that case I would add it as a Complication.
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Re: Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by FuzzyBoots »

StarGuard wrote:Bad GMing isn't really a good reason to house rule though is it? There are a number of Flaws which GMs seem to never call into play. It's up to the GM to create encounters or circumstances where either the character can't or has difficulty accessing the battlesuit.

That said, I also like the pregenerated damage table for battlesuits, but in that case I would add it as a Complication.
The issue I see with that is that most Battlesuit characters only have the battlesuit, so depriving them of it is like stripping one of the other characters of their powers and saying "go play". You can selectively have things break down, or rule that they've run out of ammunition or unobtanium for their anti-grav, but that's somewhat arbitrary Complication-level penalties whereas points saved is usually a mechanical thing. I think providing ways for individual parts to be damaged in-battle (rather than a monolithic Toughness 22 Device) is a good compromise. Easy-to-Lose is a bit more readily dealt with, between the action to draw, and the fact that they can be disarmed in battle.
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badpenny
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Re: Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by badpenny »

You can't have it both ways: either you buy your Device without a Flaw and take HP when the GM decides you run out of ammo, or something goes offline, or you take a point discount and do not get HP.

A player shouldn't come into the game with 15+ points over everyone else and not have to "pay" for them.
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StarGuard
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Re: Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by StarGuard »

badpenny wrote:A player shouldn't come into the game with 15+ points over everyone else and not have to "pay" for them.
Totally agree, and as it is on the GM to take advantage of that Flaw from time to time (same as with Complications), it is on the Player to understand the situation they are putting themselves into if they overly rely on the Battlesuit. Those extra 20 points better have went into making them useful besides piloting the suit. This goes back to GM and player each clearly understanding their responsibilities during the building process.

I have a similar anathema to characters built heavily with AE arrays ... which imo are too often only a notch above Variable powers. You can imagine my reluctance to play or GM a character that combines Removable with Arrays :roll: Don't get me wrong, I think it can be done, I just hope it's with a player or GM that uses Complications and Flaws to create an interesting character/story.
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badpenny
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Re: Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by badpenny »

Arrays, to me, aren't abusive unless you're simply using it to CYA with one effect for everyone resistance kind of thing. Expressing your power in different ways is just fine.

But sticking with the thread theme, Devices can be bad, but Equipment is atrocious. That's the equivalent of an Easily Removable Device (Hard to Lose in 2e) and tacking on an additional -2 Flaw. A -4 Flaw should be the equivalent of walking onto a battlefield with a fine crystal goblet in your hand. I've seen players never have to pay for it, never have it taken away, damaged, etc. And if battlesuits can be broken, then Equipment should be nearly dismissable with a strong breeze. :twisted:
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Ares
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Re: Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by Ares »

Part of the problem is just how M&M handles damage. In my own home brew system, you have Resistance Value that determines how much damage you can soak, and then you have a personal threshold for how much damage you can take before needing to make consciousness checks. Armor adds to the RV of the character wearing it, and then damage is divided between the armor and the wearer, so that both take some damage, but you don't get into situations where the person in the armor needs to have their armor completely destroyed before they're knocked out or killed.

In M&M, I'd say one way would be that for Devices and Power Armor, it would be possible to make called shots to each "power" the Device has, basically letting you specifically target the boot jets, palm repulsors, sensors systems, etc, using the current Toughness rating of the armor. If the system fails the save by 1 degree, that system is disabled until the user takes a Standard Action to "reboot" it. If the system fails the save by 2 degrees, it is disabled until the wearer can make some kind of repair roll, which could take several rounds. If the system fails by 3 degrees, it is effectively destroyed and will require lab time to replace.

A possible expansion to the above option might be that when the accrued Toughness penalties someone receives in combat are equal to the bonus the armor grants to toughness, then the entire armor itself suffers the above penalties. So the armor could basically be shut down for a round, require repair, or basically be damaged enough to require lab repair. A hero trying to stay in the fight might have an option that, if the damage could theoretically destroy the armor, he's allowed to make some kind Saving Check to shunt most of the damage to another system, so that he loses access to one Power in exchange for the rest of his suit staying in the fight.

A Hero Point can probably be spent to automatically restore a system at a critical time.
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badpenny
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Re: Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by badpenny »

Ares wrote:In M&M, I'd say one way would be that for Devices and Power Armor, it would be possible to make called shots to each "power" the Device has, basically letting you specifically target the boot jets, palm repulsors, sensors systems, etc, using the current Toughness rating of the armor. If the system fails the save by 1 degree, that system is disabled until the user takes a Standard Action to "reboot" it. If the system fails the save by 2 degrees, it is disabled until the wearer can make some kind of repair roll, which could take several rounds. If the system fails by 3 degrees, it is effectively destroyed and will require lab time to replace.

A possible expansion to the above option might be that when the accrued Toughness penalties someone receives in combat are equal to the bonus the armor grants to toughness, then the entire armor itself suffers the above penalties. So the armor could basically be shut down for a round, require repair, or basically be damaged enough to require lab repair. A hero trying to stay in the fight might have an option that, if the damage could theoretically destroy the armor, he's allowed to make some kind Saving Check to shunt most of the damage to another system, so that he loses access to one Power in exchange for the rest of his suit staying in the fight.

A Hero Point can probably be spent to automatically restore a system at a critical time.
I like these ideas. I'm going to try to come up with a complete suite of options.
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Ares
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Re: Breaking Bad, er Battlesuits

Post by Ares »

A complete suit of options, you say? Don't hit! Don't hit. :D Glad you like the ideas, and I hope they help.
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