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DnD v3.5 and Wizards vs. Sorcerers

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:48 am
by MisterB
So I was reading over the difference between the sorcerer and wizard classes and wondered why sorcerers can cast more spells. The only thing I could come up with at the moment, us because bards or sorcerers can only learn a limited number of spells. While a wizard can learn as many as opportunity presents? Still makes me wonder why anyone would play the wizard over the sorcerer, unless you add some other limiting factor or perhaps make wizards more powerful.

Re: DnD v3.5 and Wizards vs. Sorcerers

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:02 am
by FuzzyBoots
MisterB wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:48 am
So I was reading over the difference between the sorcerer and wizard classes and wondered why sorcerers can cast more spells. The only thing I could come up with at the moment, us because bards or sorcerers can only learn a limited number of spells. While a wizard can learn as many as opportunity presents? Still makes me wonder why anyone would play the wizard over the sorcerer, unless you add some other limiting factor or perhaps make wizards more powerful.
That's pretty much exactly it. A sorcerer or bard is limited to what they've learned. A wizard can learn every single spell out there, and pick and choose each morning which he will use.

Re: DnD v3.5 and Wizards vs. Sorcerers

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:09 am
by Scots Dragon
Due to that sheer level of versatility, wizards are in fact considered to be the far stronger class between the two in terms of optimisation.

Re: DnD v3.5 and Wizards vs. Sorcerers

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:28 am
by slade the sniper
[rant]
Ah, yes, the vaunted Wizard Optimization. Which is true, but like most things, it requires some explanation.
With unlimited gold, unlimited access to all magic, and unlimited time, a wizard is most OP.
However, I have never seen this level of OP "in game."

If you want a wizard with that level of power, figure out the amount of gold it took to get there, then give that amount of magic weapons to a fighter, or a monk or another class and that level of power is not really as overwhelming as it first appears.

Also, think of all the places that a wizard has to go to learn/access all those spells and the price they would have had to pay to do so...

Wizards are OP, when you handwave away all of the costs (time, favors, access, etc.) involved in getting there.

The same problems arise when optimizing any class, but it always feels extra egregious (to me) when applied to wizards, since most optimizers consider all the spells beyond the "two learned per level" to be "free", when there is most definitely a material cost (24 hours and 100 gp per page/level of the spell), not to mention material components.

[/rant]

-STS

Re: DnD v3.5 and Wizards vs. Sorcerers

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:08 pm
by Woodclaw
slade the sniper wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:28 am
[rant]
Ah, yes, the vaunted Wizard Optimization. Which is true, but like most things, it requires some explanation.
With unlimited gold, unlimited access to all magic, and unlimited time, a wizard is most OP.
However, I have never seen this level of OP "in game."

If you want a wizard with that level of power, figure out the amount of gold it took to get there, then give that amount of magic weapons to a fighter, or a monk or another class and that level of power is not really as overwhelming as it first appears.

Also, think of all the places that a wizard has to go to learn/access all those spells and the price they would have had to pay to do so...

Wizards are OP, when you handwave away all of the costs (time, favors, access, etc.) involved in getting there.

The same problems arise when optimizing any class, but it always feels extra egregious (to me) when applied to wizards, since most optimizers consider all the spells beyond the "two learned per level" to be "free", when there is most definitely a material cost (24 hours and 100 gp per page/level of the spell), not to mention material components.

[/rant]

-STS
This is mostly true, although there are two big caveats in my opinion. First, the most expensive spell in the entire game cost 900 gp to transcribe, which is ridicolusly cheap for most adventurers, so I wouldn't really consider money to be factor. Second, most wizard optimizations builds were not designed with an organic development in mind. Most of them were meant to pop fully formed using the "creating high level characters" rules from the DMG. Now those rules are, for me, one of the greatest design sins of D&D 3rd edition and the d20 system in general. The idea of factoring the magical bonuses into the character growth rubbed all the mystique of these items, making them just a "better designed item".

Re: DnD v3.5 and Wizards vs. Sorcerers

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:39 am
by slade the sniper
Woodclaw wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:08 pm
slade the sniper wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:28 am
[rant]
Ah, yes, the vaunted Wizard Optimization. Which is true, but like most things, it requires some explanation.
With unlimited gold, unlimited access to all magic, and unlimited time, a wizard is most OP.
However, I have never seen this level of OP "in game."

If you want a wizard with that level of power, figure out the amount of gold it took to get there, then give that amount of magic weapons to a fighter, or a monk or another class and that level of power is not really as overwhelming as it first appears.

Also, think of all the places that a wizard has to go to learn/access all those spells and the price they would have had to pay to do so...

Wizards are OP, when you handwave away all of the costs (time, favors, access, etc.) involved in getting there.

The same problems arise when optimizing any class, but it always feels extra egregious (to me) when applied to wizards, since most optimizers consider all the spells beyond the "two learned per level" to be "free", when there is most definitely a material cost (24 hours and 100 gp per page/level of the spell), not to mention material components.

[/rant]

-STS
This is mostly true, although there are two big caveats in my opinion. First, the most expensive spell in the entire game cost 900 gp to transcribe, which is ridicolusly cheap for most adventurers, so I wouldn't really consider money to be factor. Second, most wizard optimizations builds were not designed with an organic development in mind. Most of them were meant to pop fully formed using the "creating high level characters" rules from the DMG. Now those rules are, for me, one of the greatest design sins of D&D 3rd edition and the d20 system in general. The idea of factoring the magical bonuses into the character growth rubbed all the mystique of these items, making them just a "better designed item".
I agree with you, completely. My quip about cost was more focused towards how you got access to the spell, not only the gp cost. That is more of a Call of Cthulhu thing, I guess, but giving people "free" access (Bring Your Own Book, I guess) to powerful spells just seems so weird. If I had a library filled with 8th and 9th level spells, I sure as hell wouldn't let people copy them down...and gold is easy to get, so I would be all about having people owe me favors or do quests for me, or something else of value. I just don't see the way that wizards have spells just appear in their books one day. I know that is how it is written, but it never really made sense to me. I still prefer the way it was in AD&D where you had to pay for everything, take time to learn things, etc. and you didn't just level up in the middle of fights or the dungeon or whatever.

-STS

Re: DnD v3.5 and Wizards vs. Sorcerers

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:38 pm
by Chris Brady
Limiting Wizards so that Sorcerers are actually viable is effectively being a dick. What, there are NEVER going to be any spell books nor useful scrolls for the Wizard to transcribe? Ever? That's a little mean, isn't it?

The other issue is that Sorcerers get a new level of spell casting at double their level, so for a Sorc to get Fireball, that's level 6.

Whereas a Wizard gets it at Double -1 level, so level 5, which is also a significant power boost.

The balancing factor was more castings, and ability to choose which spell on the fly. Let's hope your repertoire was planned out in advance from level 1, cuz you can't change out your loadout.

There's a reason that the most optimal party was two Druids, two Clerics and a Wizard.