Justice League -

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L-Space
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Re: Justice League -

Post by L-Space » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:16 pm

Ken wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:41 pm
And as far as the League vs Superman, remember, Superman woke up on the wrong side of the bed that day. He was angry. Conversely, the League... the League 1) really didn't want to hurt the guy they just went through so much effort to revive and 2) didn't want to make Clark more angry. Could Diana of hurt him? Based on BvS, probably. But she hadn't reached the point in the fight where she HAD to.
Agreed, I feel like Wonder Woman could have stood toe to toe with Supes and done some damage if push came to shove. Same with Flash vs Superman speed-wise, they're close but I'm pretty sure Flash would have been able to stay a one or two steps ahead of Superman if need be. I will say that Flash's look of horror when Superman's eyes start tracking him at superspeed was priceless.
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Ares
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Re: Justice League -

Post by Ares » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:34 am

Ken wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:41 pm
Ares wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:09 pm
Without Superman, the battle against Steppenwolf was treated like a real, dire threat that could end the world. When Superman showed up, it was with the air of a parent watching as a 12 year old was bullying some 7 and 8 year olds, complete with "Is this guy picking on you?", before swatting Steppenwolf aside. There really wasn't anything in that film that could threaten Superman personally in the film.
Except, Superman didn't actually defeat Steppenwolf.
For all intent purposes, he did. The reason for Steppenwolf's lack of confidence was that his weapon was shattered. And his weapon was shattered because Superman froze it. At that point, it's likely anyone of the League not named "The Flash" (because I'm amazed this version of Barry can even tie his own shoes) could have destroyed it.

And I say this as someone who LIKED the twist of Steppenwolf's soldiers turning on him because he felt fear for the first time. It actually makes a diabolical sense that Darkseid would have soldiers that would turn on commanders who showed signs of fear. Though in a weird way that makes Darkseid's forces potential Green Lantern recruits.

The point remains that whenever Superman was on-sight engaging the villains, he completely removes any tension because Steppenwolf could do nothing against him but get beaten up. It's only when Superman was not available that the villain could resume his even-ish fight with Wonder Woman and Aquaman or actually threaten Cyborg. When Superman showed up initially, the fight was completely one-sided in Superman's favor. When he returned after saving people, he basically sounded like a bored dad breaking up a fight at the playground. "Are you guys still fighting? Is this mean kid picking on you?" and resuming the aforementioned beatdown.

If you're going to have the villain be a legitimate threat to the team, someone who can fight the virtually the entire roster at once and hold his own, and then have one character be able to solo said villain with contemptuous ease, something has gone wrong. It's the Dragon Ball Z effect all over again.

So yeah, I'd say Superman defeated Steppenwolf in every way that mattered. He outclassed him physically, he was the one who Steppenwolf could not come close to overcoming, and he's the one who made it possible for Steppenwolf's axe to be broken. And even allowing someone else to do the breaking was basically throwing Wonder Woman a bone in that film. Given the rest of his portrayal in the film, I'm mildly surprised with the restraint they showed by not having Steppenwolf try to hit Clark with the axe and have the axed shatter uselessly against his S-Shield.

Heck, I'm surprised Clark didn't just take the axe away and break it over his knee.
The threat was the "can we separate the Mother Boxes", which Superman indicated did hurt. Now, did we know Superman and Cyborg would survive it, yes. I knew James Bond would survive the dirty Nuke in Goldfinger.
I never brought up that point, but since you did, it was never a question of anyone dying in that explosion. They just brought Superman back, Batman is still DC's most profitable franchise, Cyborg was brought on for some black representation, and with Wonder Woman being the most popular character in the movie, the only people who could have potentially died in that film were the Flash and Aquaman.

That scene actually worked a bit better because it had Superman actually in a support role for another team member, and in the aftermath you actually saw the duo laughing and bonding over the incident. Though personally, I would have put the Flash in Superman's place, using some vibrations and scientific know-how to separate the boxes, as well as build on the friendship he and Victor were developing during the film.
And as far as the League vs Superman, remember, Superman woke up on the wrong side of the bed that day. He was angry. Conversely, the League... the League 1) really didn't want to hurt the guy they just went through so much effort to revive and 2) didn't want to make Clark more angry. Could Diana of hurt him? Based on BvS, probably. But she hadn't reached the point in the fight where she HAD to.
Except the League showed themselves of not even being able to effectively contain, restrain or slow Superman down, let alone hurt him. When Wonder Woman has him in her lasso, he basically overpowers her using one arm while she's putting her entire body into trying (and failing) to resist his strength. When Diana, Cyborg and Arthur all simultaneously try to hold him, he basically flings them off with little effort. And when he and Wonder Woman engage in that test of strength, we get an Iron Man versus Thor moment where they grapple, Wonder Woman/Iron Man headbutts Superman/Thor and manages to disorient him a little. Then Superman/Thor headbutts Wonder Woman/Iron Man back and clearly overpowers the other (Iron Man went flying, Diana was buried in a crater in the ground). The message seemed to be pretty clear that Diana was severely outclassed.

Now, Superman was enraged and the League was trying to restrain him without seriously injuring him, and it's possible that Diana could have been more effective if she was willing to hurt him. But what was shown was that the League couldn't restrain Superman, that Superman's got more strength in one arm than Diana does her entire body. It's questionable that the League would have been able to harm Superman if they'd wanted to. If Bruce hadn't had Lois there, it's likely he would have died, and no one in the League would have been able to save him.

Again, I liked Justice League and I like Superman as a character. I just feel that they fell into the trap Geoff Johns, Grant Morrison, Jeph Loeb, Bruce Timm and franchises like Injustice do, where Superman MUST be the most powerful hero by a clear margin, even if (or especially if) it's at the expense of other heroes. Wonder Woman and Aquaman do okay against Steppenwolf in a fight? Superman DEMOLISHES Steppenwolf. The Flash saves a small family? Superman saves an entire building. Cyborg's basically the only one split even with Superman, de-synchronizing the Mother Boxes while Superman separates them. And when the rest of the League try to restrain Superman, the best they can do is irritate him.

Basically, while I liked that this film removed the ugly color filter, let Superman actually smile and joke, let the heroes actually prioritize rescuing civilians, and had several other things going for it, I feel it committed that sin many Superman writers commit by having Superman kill any tension created by the villain, and overshadowed his teammates to the point of rendering them largely irrelevant.

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Re: Justice League -

Post by StarGuard » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:38 pm

Fun popcorn-flic

Flash - sorry just can't enjoy this version of the character.
Aquaman - wasn't horrible and could have been.
Wonder Woman - should have been a singular threat to Steppenwolf on her own.
Batman - I like this version of him as Bruce and the Bat.
Cyborg - filler character and hate the armor. Vic should have many more human parts left. Just too much Robo-cop. Looks like there is going to be improvement on the armor though :)

Steppenwolf as main villain? Lame. The Para-demons (omg what did you do to our Mother Boxes?) should have been the real threat and all of it a set up for the real main villain Darkseid.

Steps shouldn't have the chops to threaten Suoes so I'm good with that. Writers should have set up enough credible threats (Boon tunes and para-demon hordes) that he was even less in the fight and WW and Aquaman administer the coup d'état.

Trying to shove too much into one film that was too small to begin with was the mistake I expected and got but I did enjoy the movie ... it's just not an Avengers movie and couldn't be. They're 10 years behind the curve.

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L-Space
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Re: Justice League -

Post by L-Space » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:13 am

StarGuard wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:38 pm
Trying to shove too much into one film that was too small to begin with was the mistake I expected and got but I did enjoy the movie ... it's just not an Avengers movie and couldn't be. They're 10 years behind the curve.
That was the other weird thing about this film. It only had a run time of 2 hours, which is a good 20 minutes shorter than the other superhero ensemble movies: Avengers (1&2), Civil War, and Batman v. Superman (bad example). 20 minutes may not seem like much, but it can make a big difference in the tone, feel, and flow of a movie.
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Re: Justice League -

Post by Davies » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:09 am

L-Space wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:13 am

That was the other weird thing about this film. It only had a run time of 2 hours, which is a good 20 minutes shorter than the other superhero ensemble movies: Avengers (1&2), Civil War, and Batman v. Superman (bad example). 20 minutes may not seem like much, but it can make a big difference in the tone, feel, and flow of a movie.
It's going to be interesting to see how much of what was left out is included in the DVD, and how much it changes people's perspectives on the text.

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Re: Justice League -

Post by Ken » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:24 am

Davies wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:09 am
L-Space wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:13 am

That was the other weird thing about this film. It only had a run time of 2 hours, which is a good 20 minutes shorter than the other superhero ensemble movies: Avengers (1&2), Civil War, and Batman v. Superman (bad example). 20 minutes may not seem like much, but it can make a big difference in the tone, feel, and flow of a movie.
It's going to be interesting to see how much of what was left out is included in the DVD, and how much it changes people's perspectives on the text.
Maybe on the Blue-Ray. DVD, $17 at Wal-Mart has no special features to speak of.

My dad and I watched it tonight (I saw it in theatres, he didn't). Keep in mind that the first story Dad saw with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and the Flash together was All-Star Comics #36, when the Flash was Jay Garrick, and Hawkman, Green (Alan Scott) Lantern, and Dr. Mid-Nite were all part of the team. First run. Dad was 8. And he said "Wow, Batman and Superman together." Anyway, Dad enjoyed it, and thought it was a good film, but recognised that non-comic readers might have a hard time following it.
There is no place for realism in a genre about people who can lift battle tanks or fly in an aura of flame.
Consistency and verisimilitude are great, and should be encouraged, but not realism.

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Davies
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Re: Justice League -

Post by Davies » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:52 am

Ken wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:24 am
Davies wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:09 am
L-Space wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:13 am

That was the other weird thing about this film. It only had a run time of 2 hours, which is a good 20 minutes shorter than the other superhero ensemble movies: Avengers (1&2), Civil War, and Batman v. Superman (bad example). 20 minutes may not seem like much, but it can make a big difference in the tone, feel, and flow of a movie.
It's going to be interesting to see how much of what was left out is included in the DVD, and how much it changes people's perspectives on the text.
Maybe on the Blue-Ray. DVD, $17 at Wal-Mart has no special features to speak of.
Hrm. Did some digging, and there are apparently a small number of additional scenes under the header "The Return of Superman" on the Bluray.

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