The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

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Ares
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The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Ares »

I don't think it's overstating things to say that DC has some of the most popular and iconic characters in all of human history. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are three of the most enduring iconic characters of all time, referenced in casual conversation by people everywhere. The S-Shield and Bat-Emblem are two of the most widely recognized symbols on planet Earth. While Marvel Comics has generally been more profitable when it comes to comic sales (though not always by huge margins), DC always maintained a level of pop culture presence and popularity in the wider world. Partially thanks to good films, partially thanks to enduring animated series, as well as numerous other factors. For the longest time, it was DC that was known for having the best superhero films, even with Marvel successes like the X-Men and Spider-Man trilogies.

Naturally this all changed with the arrival of the MCU. It's hard to describe how much of a game changer this proved to be, how greatly Marvel Studios managed to pull off just the right combination of 'faithful to the source material' with 'won't alienate non-comic readers'. Characters like Iron Man and Thor were suddenly household names, to the point where Tony Stark nearly replaced Spider-Man as Marvel's poster boy. Within a handful of years Marvel was now the name in superheroes, and it was DC trying to play catch up.

It really should have been a slam dunk for DC. Marvel had already laid out the groundwork for how to pull off a successful shared universe. DC already had a history of successful superhero films that normal people could enjoy. Batman's film success showed that it could be done, though with films like Superman Returns, Catwoman, Steel, Green Lantern and Jonah Hex (as well as the third Nolan Bat-Film IMO) showed that their track record wasn't perfect.

Still, if they approached a Cinematic Universe the way Marvel did, if they got creators that cared about the source material, had a genuine love for the characters, could get actors invested in maintaining these roles for as long as possible, and drawing on their experience with successful superhero film and television, DC should have been a major competitor for Marvel's dominance of the Superhero Film industry.

Should have been. We all know that it didn't work out that well.

Man of Steel was demolished by Iron Man 3 at the box office that year, and in fact only managed to roughly tie Iron Man 2's numbers despite that movie having come out 3 years earlier. Thor 2 matched Man of Steel's box office. And the following year, both Captain America: Winder Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy likewise surpassed Man of Steel's box office. The film with the talking tree got more repeat viewings than Superman.

When Batman v. Superman came out, its figures improved, but it didn't approach Avengers numbers and, in fact, was only moderately more successful than the first Guardians film. Wonder Woman's solo film did roughly as good as the first movie featuring Batman and Superman together on screen for the first time, and AQUAMAN did better than either Batman v. Superman or Wonder Woman. Even when Justice League came out, it couldn't touch the Avengers films and was roughly as successful as the Suicide Squad movie. The Shazam film made less money than ANT-MAN, though it looks like the Harley Quinn film film is set up to be the lowest grossing DCEU film yet.

Meanwhile the most profitable DC film of the last decade was The Joker film, which only grossed a little less than Aquaman but cost much less to make.

Let that sink in: in an age where Batman and Superman met on screen, it was the historically mocked Aquaman having a fun adventure and a depressing, deconstructive film about Batman's arch nemesis that made the most money.

So what happened?

There have been several explanations made, many of them making sense. It's said that the behind the scenes problems prevented the kind of cohesion a Cinematic Universe needed. It's said that Warner Bros. wanted Avengers money without putting in the time and effort to properly world-build a Cinematic Universe, and it's rushed nature lead to poor decisions and a disjointed feel. It's been said the people making those movies weren't as passionate about the DC characters, and thus didn't have the same investment. And I think those reasons are all true to some extent, as well as other reasons being the issue.

But the core problem I see with the DCEU was that it was flawed from its inception. Zack Snyder was perhaps the worst pick to do a superhero setting built around the likes of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, save for someone like Rian Johnsen. The guy just fundamentally does not understand what makes the DC heroes tick, barely understands what comic book superheroes are suppose to be. And here's why:
A Reddit video shows the director answering questions at a charity event screening director's cuts of several of his films. At the Q&A for Watchmen, Snyder explained how that film colors his work and should influence how it's understood. He used the example of Batman killing, saying, “Someone says to me: [Ben Affleck’s] Batman killed a guy. I’m like, ‘Fuck, really? Wake the fuck up.'"

Snyder then went on to talk about how Watchmen differs from other superhero movies. "I guess that’s what I’m saying," he continued. "Once you've lost your virginity to this fucking movie and then you come and say to me something about like ‘my superhero wouldn’t do that.' I’m like ‘Are you serious?’ I’m like down the fucking road on that. It’s a cool point of view to be like ‘my heroes are still innocent. My heroes didn't fucking lie to America. My heroes didn't embezzle money from their corporations. My heroes didn't commit any atrocities.' That’s cool. But you’re living in a fucking dream world.”

Source
Zack Snyder is a proud cynic in a setting primarily based on optimism. It makes complete sense why he would introduce Superman as a person consumed by fear, why he would focus on hyper violence that gets people killed, and why he'd end the film with Superman snapping his opponent's neck. It makes sense why Zack would have BATMAN killing people while committing THEFT, how Zack could create a film where two of the greatest heroes in history are fighting and no one is rooting for either of them, and how Zack would accidentally make Wonder Woman the most popular character in a Superman vs Batman film.

The DC Extended Universe was NEVER going to be the Marvel Cinematic Universe, because it was built on rotten foundations. The rot just continued to spread, and the only films that did genuinely well were the ones that rejected Snyder's sensibilities and embraced actual fun heroism like Wonder Woman and Aquaman. It's sad when the frickin CW universe feels more like DC than the DCEU.

There is no hope for the DCEU. Warner Bros. needs to take some time to just let it die, give fans 5 years to forget about it and let Marvel experience MCU burnout. Spend those 5 years really planning out and developing a unified setting closer in tone and feel to something like the Justice League/JLU cartoon. Have heroes that actually look and act like their classic counterparts. Have films that are inspiring and not destructive and deconstructive. And for the love of Highfather, make these movies FUN.
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mrdent12
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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by mrdent12 »

I completely agree Zack Snyder is possibly the biggest reason. A character like Batman can work darker if done with some moments of humour. Superman though I just can't see as sad as Zack made him. The whole point is that Superman is hope. He isn't the eternal optimist, but the down moments only serve as plot points to highlight his hope.

By the time Warner Brothers realized there mistake it was too late. Marvel had people's buy-in to keep watching their films. After getting immersed in the world there is a certain draw to counter super hero fatigue. DC never got that same following so when they changed course it was too late. Super hero fatigue had started to set in plus shared universes became much harder to pull off in cinema.
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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Ares »

Even with Batman, people forget that he's called the "Dark Knight" with as much emphasis on the KNIGHT as the dark. He protects people. He places himself between those that would do harm and those they would harm. He cares more about saving the lives of his enemies than his own life. Batman, however grim a visage he might put forth, however dark the crimes he solves, is a good man fighting against crime and corruption, and up until recently was actually making a positive impact on his city.

But I'm glad my thoughts on Snyder make sense to at least one other person. :)
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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by mrdent12 »

I agree Batman isn't all dark. I've seen Batman films I've enjoyed that go both ways. While it might not go over the best, I have fond memories of the Adam West campus Batman films plus TV show. I've also enjoyed the Nolan films despite various issues I had with them.

Zack and Warner Brothers pushed it too dark for me though by making Batman unheroic. If I want the murderous sort of hero, I'd watch Arrow TV show.
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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Tattooedman »

I completely agree that Snyder's take on Superman left a massive hurdle for the following DC movies to follow while the first Iron Man movie was the complete opposite and had plenty of nod & wink moments for the readers of the comics to show that the film makers understood the source material. And trust me I wanted the DCU movies to work because while I greatly enjoy the MCU, I prefer DC's characters over Marvel's (though Spidey is always my #1 favorite, but the rest are DC).

In all honesty I hope someone at Disney figures out Marvel's success plan and COPIES it. Because I REALLY want more movies like Aquaman & WW.
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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Just watched Aquaman. The CG was a bit crummy at parts, but the story was fun, and it was nice to have a hero that seemed to be enjoying himself.
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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

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Yeah, it's a shame Shazam went with the Nu-52 version and tone, albeit not AS crappy as the comic version. Heck, the world building with Atlantis and all of the crazy kingdoms and the like has more of a Captain Marvel feel than anything. A Shazam movie made more in the vein of Aquaman and closer to the Pre-Nu-52 version would have been amazing.
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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

I think the two landmines the DCEU hit were the following:

1) With the ludicrous success of Nolan's The Dark Knight, the exact same thing happened as happened to comics in general after The Watchman graphic novel (along with The Dark Knight Returns and V for Vendetta) came out in the 80s: That "dark and mature" take got all the critical respect, and the people in power chased after it like the high school dork desperate to be one of the cool kids. So they decided Superman needed a "Batman Begins/Dark Knight" of his own and did Man of Steel. It did middlingly. All things being equal, I think the ultimate result would've been the same as Superman Returns. WB would've just decided Superman wasn't marketable to the mass public the same way Batman was. But then the second thing happened.

2) The MCU blew up like an atom bomb and WB decided they desperately needed to match that. But instead of doing what Marvel did, they tried to get to The Avengers and its billion dollar box office as quick as possible. They'd tried to start fresh with Green Lantern, but that crashed and burned, so all that was left was Man of Steel. And because Snyder thinks Watchman is the Greatest Thing Ev-ar! and, to be brutally honest, can't really make a good film unless he's got a pre-made graphic novel to use as his storyboards (see 300 and Watchman), BvS was kind of a dark, murky mess.

2b) Then Guardians of the Galaxy was a huge hit and WB said, "We need one of those!" and gave us the Suicide Squad movie. Which only made things worse.
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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Ken »

The Justice league movie that was to have had common as John Stewart and Megan Gale as Wonder Woman stalled...
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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

Ken wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:22 pm The Justice league movie that was to have had common as John Stewart and Megan Gale as Wonder Woman stalled...
Was that the one where the script leaked to the internet, which IIRC started with an already formed League handling a crisis in a major city, and had Superman specifically mentioning to prioritize saving lives and avoiding casualties?
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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Ken »

NoOneofConsequence wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:47 am
Ken wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:22 pm The Justice league movie that was to have had common as John Stewart and Megan Gale as Wonder Woman stalled...
Was that the one where the script leaked to the internet, which IIRC started with an already formed League handling a crisis in a major city, and had Superman specifically mentioning to prioritize saving lives and avoiding casualties?
I don't know. Probably.
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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Batgirl III »

So, let’s be frank, the DCEU has basically been a critical and commercial disaster. The high-points were Wonder Woman and Man of Steel, which isn’t saying much... Fans, general audiences, and film critics all seem to agree that the perpetual grimdark tone seems to be the biggest problem.

Here’s my idea for a fix: Justice League 2: Crisis of Conscience.

We take all the heroes from the CW!DC shows: Stephen Amell, Grant Gustin, Melissa Benosit, Tyler Hoechiln, Caity Lotz, Brandon Routh... The whole shebang. Everyone. Then we throw them through a portal in time and space and have them end up in the Anti-Matter Universe. Where crime is always successful, greed is good, and evil always triumphs. Inevitably, our heroes have to fight past the evil dastardly villains that are the “heroes” of this new Earth... Ben Affleck, Henry Cavill, Ezra Miller, etc.

Yeah, that’s right, Henry Cavill was actually Ultraman the whole time.
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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Tattooedman »

Batgirl III wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:35 pm Yeah, that’s right, Henry Cavill was actually Ultraman the whole time.
That makes much more sense.
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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Ares »

https://twitter.com/zacksnyder/status/1 ... 41?lang=en

Zack: "You said you enjoyed the theatrical cut of Justice League like you enjoy your Saturday morning cartoons… Well this is made for grownups, so you’re not in the demographic."

And Zack just continues to prove my initial point.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: The DCEU - Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Ken »

Because stories about people who can fly under their own power are grounded in realism, and aren't for children.
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
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