The Boys

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Ares
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Re: The Boys

Post by Ares » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:03 pm

Me personally, I don't think that the idea of someone doing good for the sake of good is as outdated or old fashioned as a lot of media makes it out to be. One big issue people have had with the DC Extended Universe was that Superman wasn't a paragon of virtue doing the right thing simply because he had the ability and desire to. Captain America over in the MCU is well liked and respected because he is someone with a solid morality and a desire to help without any thought of reward or praise. One aspect of Spider-Man: Homecoming that they got right was that when given the choice of doing what would make him happy and doing what would help someone else, Peter would always choose to help.

There's just a few loud cynics out there that believe everyone is selfish and broadcast that belief out there as loudly as they can and treat anyone who says differently as naive. Forgetting how much good is done by people, some who want to make some cash while helping, but frequently by people who don't want any real reward for doing what they do other than knowing they helped someone.

To me, a healthy dose of realism is needed to survive this world, but cynicism is far more childish than optimism. Cynicism is an excuse to not try and be a better person or to help others. If everyone is selfish, then it gives you permission to be selfish. If everyone is out to make a buck and don't help each other save for self-interested reasons, then you don't have to do anything good unless it helps you out.

Cynical people are, to me, quitters looking for an excuse to indulge their worst behavior. Helping people, working to make things better, simple acts of kindness, treating people with respect, these are things that take strength, and I think most people are stronger than the cynics give them credit for.

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Re: The Boys

Post by BriarThrone » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:19 pm

In classic comic book settings, the people who happen to get powers are, relatively often, people who can be strong and courageous and selfless enough to be heroes. I like that. It's a noble, aspirational, optimistic view of humanity. In The Boys, heroes are victims of a manipulative institution seeking to take advantage of them as celebrity/weapons, and that will make amyone cynical. I think a key moment is Starlight's discussion with Maeve, who used to be a good-hearted idealist, but compromised herself too much over the years. It's an interesting subversion of the classic tropes. It's just sad that this kind of subversion is more common than those tropes being faithfully well-executed, these days.

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Re: The Boys

Post by RUSCHE » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:34 pm

For me it is a easy way out to abuse power in the comics setting. Peter, Steve and Clark are examples of the strongest examples of humanity. It would be easy to take advantage of their power/position. They do not . The Boys does tell a story of how power corrupts, whether political, monetary or personal power. I understand the appeal to it , like I said before it left me uncertain of how I felt about it.

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Re: The Boys

Post by Ares » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:49 pm

To be clear, I absolutely do not condemn or begrudge anyone for enjoying this series or anything like it. "Power corrupts" and "Who watches the watchmen" are story elements that date back to our earliest mythology. It works fine for a storyline like the Dark Phoenix Saga. I just have no interest in a setting or franchise where that's the central premise, layered on top of deconstructing superhero tropes, juvenile gross out humor and a crapsack world.

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Re: The Boys

Post by Poodle » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:37 pm

Ares wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:03 pm
Me personally, I don't think that the idea of someone doing good for the sake of good is as outdated or old fashioned as a lot of media makes it out to be. One big issue people have had with the DC Extended Universe was that Superman wasn't a paragon of virtue doing the right thing simply because he had the ability and desire to. Captain America over in the MCU is well liked and respected because he is someone with a solid morality and a desire to help without any thought of reward or praise. One aspect of Spider-Man: Homecoming that they got right was that when given the choice of doing what would make him happy and doing what would help someone else, Peter would always choose to help.
You are right about Captain America and Peter Parker and their morality. There are reasons that both these characters are popular. I hope it is that people feel positive towards them because of their strong sense of right and wrong. It may also be because they have had good writers and that Spiderman is funny. Batman is also very popular and I would argue that his morality is less clear cut.
Cynical people are, to me, quitters looking for an excuse to indulge their worst behaviour. Helping people, working to make things better, simple acts of kindness, treating people with respect, these are things that take strength, and I think most people are stronger than the cynics give them credit for.
You are not describing a cynic, you are describing a jerk.

Cynicism to me does not mean you are incapable of doing good things or treating people with respect, or that you indulge in your worst behaviour. It just means you are aware for a lot of people that self-interest is the lowest common denominator. Even if I believe that all people are jerks does not mean I ignore them or don't believe they need help. I work in a job that deals with literally the worst people in my country (not politics). I am cynical as heck about their ability to make better choices for themselves as I have seen too many repeatedly make awful choices. This to me means they need my help more not less. I can still treat them with courtesy and respect, work to make things better and show kindness and friendliness even when it isn't returned.

Sadly I have seen the worst of people and find it easier to believe in a world like "the boys" than the DC universe where superheroes seem to have no effect on people's lives at all. Everyone just gets on with their lives. The supergeniuses have not invented cold fusion, shrinking heroes have not helped the world of medicine, Superman is not turning a crank to power the world or made irrigation in Africa. The flash isn't running on a treadmill for an hour a day to provide free power for hospitals or spending 1 minute picking up trash. Iceman hasn't refrozen the polar ice caps to reverse global warming. Even in our own world Kim Kardassian, with no superpowers, can dominate our media and good people can still be swayed by popular opinion into doing things that are not good. I am sure there are good reasons for that that tie in with canon but just saying...

I love the idea of a morally simple clean happy world and that is why we read comics or play MnM. To be heroes in a world where the enemy is clear and could be dealt with by a good right cross as opposed to amorphous enemies like any of the -isms or environmental abuse seems like a much nicer place to be.
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Re: The Boys

Post by BriarThrone » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:17 pm

Ares wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:49 pm
To be clear, I absolutely do not condemn or begrudge anyone for enjoying this series or anything like it. "Power corrupts" and "Who watches the watchmen" are story elements that date back to our earliest mythology. It works fine for a storyline like the Dark Phoenix Saga. I just have no interest in a setting or franchise where that's the central premise, layered on top of deconstructing superhero tropes, juvenile gross out humor and a crapsack world.
And yeah, no harm in that. I just feel that it deliberately seeks out and embraces those concepts and actually manages some good drama with it, as opposed to, say, Ignited, where Waid and Fake Holiday sort of fall into them by virtue of being shitty people.

It would be a much nastier series if the focus wasn't on Hughie and Starlight, who are flawed but genuinely good people trying to figure out how to achieve good things when you're disillusioned and surrounded by evil people held up as champions of virtue. To be honest, when I see how our culture reveres evil, I can relate.

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Re: The Boys

Post by Ares » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:05 pm

BriarThrone wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:17 pm
Ares wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:49 pm
To be clear, I absolutely do not condemn or begrudge anyone for enjoying this series or anything like it. "Power corrupts" and "Who watches the watchmen" are story elements that date back to our earliest mythology. It works fine for a storyline like the Dark Phoenix Saga. I just have no interest in a setting or franchise where that's the central premise, layered on top of deconstructing superhero tropes, juvenile gross out humor and a crapsack world.
And yeah, no harm in that. I just feel that it deliberately seeks out and embraces those concepts and actually manages some good drama with it, as opposed to, say, Ignited, where Waid and Fake Holiday sort of fall into them by virtue of being shitty people.
Jeez, Ignited. It deserves its own award for extreme tone-deafness. If that piece of crap gets turned into a Netflix series, something will have gone incredibly wrong.

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Re: The Boys

Post by BriarThrone » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:27 am

Ares wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:05 pm
Jeez, Ignited. It deserves its own award for extreme tone-deafness. If that piece of crap gets turned into a Netflix series, something will have gone incredibly wrong.
I hate that comics are made aiming for the license. A license should be something offered to the greatest creators for the most original and compelling stories. Nowadays, the ENTIRE COMICS BOOK INDUSTRY is shovelware, throwing out a million bad ideas designed to appeal to studios. Terrible business and artistic model.

I bring up Ignited for a reason, though. Both series deal with similar concepts - people drunk on power, doing whatever they want. However, at least in The Boys, these people are treated as villains, and the protagonists are seeking to right the wrong. In Ignited, they're treated as heroes, unironically, while they commit several acts of terrorism.

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Re: The Boys

Post by Egyptoid » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:52 pm

NSFW
caution, harsh opinions

https://i.imgur.com/xFCL92e.jpg
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Re: The Boys

Post by Spectrum » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:37 pm

I've been doing some further digging and it's worth mentioning- the adaptation seems to be little more than in 'name only'. A few general characters, a few general events but not really following the original comic very closely at all.

Still, a tv show centered around people behaving poorly.

Also, at this point the ban on spoilers has elapses. Any favorite scenes? Any that made you really cringe?

I think that the most painful scene for me to watch was in the plane. That was the moment that made me realize just how horrible Homelander was.

The best seen was when Starlight told off the crowd at the concert.
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Re: The Boys

Post by mrdent12 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:44 pm

There is so few shows if any that have an original formula, the fact The Boys is a standard template with different pieces plugged in doesn't bug me. Someone else said it, but the execution was well done. The paths that Starlight and Hughie took paraelling each other development wise was a nice touch especially how they came together in the final episode.

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Re: The Boys

Post by Ares » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:22 pm

Credit where credit is due, everything I've read about the show on TV Tropes indicates that it is, in fact, a big step up from the comic. Much in the same way the Netflix Daredevil show made the rooftop scene between Matt and Frank much better than the Ennis written comic, this show is apparently a lot less juvenile, mean-spirited and stupid than the comic.

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Re: The Boys

Post by Poodle » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:35 pm

I wouldn't describe it as juvenile and it did get rid of some horrible scenes. Starlight had to perform oral sex on all the males in tbe seven. There was also a horrible scene that showed what happens when superpowered individuals have sex with ordinary prostitutes.

There are a limited number of story arcs out there. Good vs evil, power corrupts, love conquers all, is happiness more important than goodness, revenge, little guy vs big guy. Anything based on a comic is going to be a morality play anyway.
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Re: The Boys

Post by Ares » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:56 pm

Poodle wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:35 pm
I wouldn't describe it as juvenile and it did get rid of some horrible scenes.
I'd describe most Garth Ennis written stuff as fairly juvenile, whereas this series seems to be playing things straight. The comic reads like some dark superhero parody, whereas this feels more like a deconstruction you can take somewhat seriously.

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Re: The Boys

Post by mrdent12 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:38 pm

It's a result of the medium I suspect. The more sexually explicit stuff poodle mentioned probably wouldn't make it past Amazon's filter. If they are indicative of other events in the comic it makes sense why it's not a straight up adaptation.

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