Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

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Netflix Iron Fist Race Issue: Why casting a white Iron Fist was the right decision.

Post by Ares » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:39 am

With a little over a month before the release of Netflix’s Iron Fist series, there was a point I wanted to bring up that I feel deserves its own topic. This is the fact that when Google searching for information about the series, topics such as this still come up.

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So far I’ve only really seen one article actually defending the casting of Finn Jones as Iron Fist, with my only problems with him so far being that he has no martial arts background (which the proper training and directing can cover) and that they insist on giving him that dumb goatee, which hopefully gets shaved off at some point. My problem with Jones was never the color of his skin. So it annoyed me when I actually saw there were topics accusing Marvel and Netflix of whitewashing a white character.

In fact, the multiple topics on the matter have made me want to add at least one contrary opinion to the topics, even if it will only be viewed by the people here. Here are seven reasons I think that casting a white actor to play the white Iron Fist was the right choice.

7) Faithfulness to the source material: This is a simple one, but it bears inclusion.

For those not in the know, Iron Fist is the story of Danny Rand, a young boy who travels with his father and mother seek to find a fabled city of K’un L’un, a secret city hidden in a remote region of China. During the journey, Danny’s parents are betrayed and murdered, leaving Danny for dead. Luckily, the young boy is found by the citizens of K’un L’un, many of whom are almost all near-immortal mystical martial arts masters. They take the boy in, where Danny’s desire for revenge results in him training in the city, and after living and training with them for over ten years, he eventually masters their martial arts. This ultimately culminates in Danny slaying a dragon in one-on-one combat, thus gaining the title of their greatest warrior, the Iron Fist. Danny then leaves K’un L’un to seek his revenge, but when given the chance to exact his vengeance, he ultimately can’t go through with it. Revenge, he decides, is a pointless, empty pursuit, giving it up in order to discover who he truly is. He settles on using his skills and family fortune to defend the world as a superhero.

When it comes to adapting the source material from one medium to another, changes are certainly expected. However, it is very important to keep the things that are the core concepts of the character, and changing things only as necessary. This can either be for pragmatic reasons such as budget constraints, or fixing certain issues that in hindsight would harm the work. For Iron Fist, casting a white actor to play a white character is faithful to the source material and not something that needs to be inherently changed.

6) There is no ‘Mighty Whitey’ issue: One concept tossed about when talking about changing Iron Fist’s race is the notion of Danny being a “Mighty Whitey”. The phrase comes from a trend in early fiction from the 18th, 19th and 20th century to have white characters often going to then exotic locations and learning their ways, mastering them in a relatively short time and sometimes even becoming better at them than the people they learned them from. This is seen by some as a way of sort of justifying colonialism and the spreading of the European/Anglo-Saxon society to native people, proving the superiority of “white culture”. Characters often presented as such are characters like Tarzan and The Phantom, two white characters raised in Africa who are often considered superior to the natives in various tribal skills.

Now, I can certainly see a case for this argument in productions like “The Last Samurai” or “Avatar” where a white guy joins this group of people and, after only a few months is suddenly mastering their combat arts and gaining positions of leadership within the group.

However, I don’t really see it with Tarzan, the Phantom or Iron Fist. Tarzan’s abilities aren’t due to his race, but due to his unique upbringing. Unlike the other residents of Africa, he was found by a mythical tribe of intelligent gorillas and raised by them, forced to adapt to their lifestyle and gain near superhuman physical abilities from the intense requirements of his life. He was the result of a very unique set of circumstances that had little to do with his skin color.

Similarly, with the Phantom and Iron Fist, it had less to do with their race and more to do with their motivation. Both men were taken as very young boys by the people of the lands they were discovered in, raised in their arts, but driven to excel by the murder of their parents. Their dedication to seeking out justice and protecting people from similar tragedies made them push themselves harder than those around them. It’s the same reason Batman is the world class athlete / ninja / pilot / scientist / detective, they are driven by something beyond what normal men are.

It’s further muddied by the fact that Iron Fist’s teacher Lei Kung and his foe, the Steel Serpent, were both natives of K’un L’un and both equally skilled as Danny. The Immortal Iron Fist series also revealed that there is a long line of Iron Fists that included people of several races, predominantly Chinese. Danny has merely shown that a white person can achieve what an Asian person can with sufficient dedication.

5) There is no ‘Cultural Appropriation’ issue: Continuing on with Tarzan, the Phantom and Iron Fist, there have been claims of cultural appropriation with them as well. Cultural Appropriation is the concept of someone from one culture taking aspects of another culture and using them in some way to profit themselves, usually at the expense of the appropriated culture.

I frankly have a hard time seeing how this applies to these characters because, frankly, they ARE a part of the culture whose skills they’ve acquired. A large problem with the concept of cultural appropriation is that it often confuses “culture” and “race”. It is possible for someone to belong to a culture without necessarily being of the race of that culture. Idris Elba is black man from England, speaks with a British accent, and I would dare anyone to claim he isn’t actually English simply because his family moved to England at some point rather than having originated there thousands of years ago. Tarzan and the Phantom both grew up in Africa, the Phantom’s family has spent over 500 years in that land. Danny was in K’un L’un since he was 10 and left it when he was in his mid-20’s. When he thinks of home, he usually thinks of K’un L’un, not New York. They have every right to consider themselves a part of those cultures.

4) There are better characters to promote Asian representation: I can agree that we don’t see enough American actors of Asian ancestry in leading roles, and agree that they are unfortunately stereotyped into roles that have them as martial artists. However, I don’t see Iron Fist having his ethnicity changed as being a step in the right direction. Marvel actually has Asian characters they can promote, and rather than changing someone’s ethnicity, they’d be better off actually using one of their existing Asian characters for this purpose.

I can see the problem Marvel faces here, however. A great many of their Asian superheroes are mutants, and thus Fox has the rights to them presently, including characters such as Sunfire, Jubilee, Karma, Armor and Surge. Furthemore, their most successful Asian hero to date was done by the Disney adaptation of Big Hero 6, making Hiro Hamada not only the lead, but a likable protagonist. Unless Disney and Marvel could work something out to adapt Hiro and Baymax to the MCU, this not only deprives Marvel of another Asian hero, but shows them actually one-upping Marvel in that regard.

Thankfully, the formula Marvel has been using continues to demonstrate ways to improve the situation. For instance, the Black Panther will be getting his own film, finally giving us a black superhero in a starring role in the MCU. In a similar manner, Shang Chi will actually be appearing in the Iron Fist series, and hopefully like Luke Cage, he will get spun off into his own series. The other Immortal Weapons could also appear and be used.

Marvel’s other existing heroes such as Jimmy Woo, Jolt, Amadeus Cho and Nico Minoru could all appear as well. Jimmy has a strong connection to SHIELD and Agents of Atlas could get a fun Guardians of the Galaxy style film. Nico is a strong Asian character and part of a group that includes other minorities. Amadeus Cho’s mother has already been included and he has a strong Hulk connection. And Jolt could be an excellent addition as both a strong female heroine and one who actively avoids stereotyping as having powers completely unrelated to martial arts or mysticism.

3) Race and gender should matter to everyone equally: I definitely understand the need for representation, of giving people who have traditionally been marginalized in entertainment the chance to either act or to give those people role models they might have lacked otherwise. Wonder Woman was created to give girls a hero in a time when most heroes were male. Black Panther, Storm, the Falcon and Luke Cage were created to give black people similar heroes when most heroes were white. But a key thing to note there was that these heroes were “created” to do this. They were made with these goals in mind.

Because to my mind, changing a white male character’s race, gender or orientation solely to for the purpose of appealing to a different group, should not be okay to anyone. To the group the change was made to appeal to, it should frankly come off as offensive. Instead of giving them a character designed from the ground up for them, they’re basically saying that it’s easier to simply change the race, gender or orientation of an existing character and simply fill in a substitute. It isn’t an attempt at great representation, it’s pandering, pure and simple.

As for white males, it basically says that their combination of race and gender isn’t as important as other peoples. And that’s something important to consider: if it a person’s race, gender or orientation is so important to an individual, important enough for someone to largely define themselves by those attributes, to create movements to promote them, to fight for them, then it has to be something equally important to every person. Being a straight white male is just as important as being a straight white female, a straight black man, a gay black female, a bi-sexual latino transsexual, or any combination of race, gender or orientation. It’s hypocritical to think its okay to replace any of those elements so long as the starting point was a straight white male, when those elements are suppose to be equally important to everyone.

It’s more hypocritical in the face of Marvel changing the ethnicity of some of its existing characters to appeal to the Chinese market. The Ancient One of Dr. Strange was originally Tibetan, but since China and Tibet have a very messy and complicated history, the change was made to a Celtic Woman to avoid controversy. Likewise, the Mandarin was changed from a Chinese martial artist with magical rings to a white scientist in order to not have a Chinese villain in the series. And some people applauded the change to the Mandarin, saying that the character was an example of the “Yellow Peril” stereotype, while seeming to miss that they were saying essentially that it’s offensive to have an Asian supervillain, when Daredevil and Luke Cage have been the only MCU productions to have human villains that weren’t white men.

2) Martial Arts and Philosophy do not care about race: A large outcry for the idea that Iron Fist should have been Asian basically stems from the fact that the character is a martial arts superhero. While characters like Batman and Daredevil use martial arts to fight crime, it’s not central to who they are as characters. With Iron Fist, all of his abilities are due to martial arts training, they shape his philosophy and lifestyle, and his uniform is designed to resemble a superhero-ized martial arts uniform.

And no one seems to realize that wanting him to be racist primarily because he practices martial arts is, well, kind of racist. It’s racist to people of Asian descent because it stereotypes them as only being good for martial arts, but it also is racist to every other race because it implies that only Asians can be good martial artists or follow some of the philosophies and lifestyles associated with the arts.

This is basically a form of cultural segregation, saying that only certain people should know certain things. Something the most iconic martial artist in the world, Bruce Lee fought against.

And I mean that literally. Bruce Lee had a very simple philosophy: “I will train anyone who wants to learn”. He trained men and women, whites and blacks, anyone who stepped through the doors of his school that was willing to learn. And at the time, it was not considered right by the Chinese martial arts community to teach non-Chinese their arts. Bruce Lee had to fight another Chinese master for the right simply to teach these skills to anyone who wanted to learn them. He won, and he went on to spark an interest in martial arts that exists to this day. Just look at the number of professional martial artists and actors with a martial arts background. You will find people of all races, all genders, and likely of many orientations.

Larry Hama of G.I. Joe fame is similarly of Asian ancestry, and a huge fan of ninja. So much so that he created the characters of Snake-Eyes and Storm Shadow, two men trained in the ninja arts who were effectively the deadliest combatants on Earth. But the thing is, of the two, only Storm Shadow was Japanese. Snake-Eyes was a white American, a friend Storm Shadow took in to train with him at his family compound, and whose skills eventually equaled Storm Shadow. Hama wanted to make the point that someone’s race has nothing to do with their level of skill at something. What matters is their combination of natural talent and the hard work they put into learning their craft. To say otherwise is to imply that a certain race is inherently superior to another due to their race, and last I checked, that’s pretty racist.

The martial arts do not care about your race, gender or orientation. It is a skill that requires only a willing teacher and a dedicated student to flourish. The philosophies of Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism and the like do not require Chinese or Japanese ancestry to learn, understand or appreciate, anymore than Christianity or Hinduism require specific racial backgrounds. All they require is an open mind and a sincere desire to learn.

Something all of us would benefit from.

1) Danny as a builder of bridges: The main desire for an Asian Iron Fist is provide an Asian superhero for the MCU, to have that kind of representation in the films. I can empathize with that, but I have hopefully shown that the reasons Iron Fist had so much controversy regarding his race is, at best, misguided but well intentioned.

The most important reason to keep Danny white in my mind, however, is the number of bridges he builds. There’s nothing innately special about an Asian person speaking highly of Asian culture of philosophies or being a martial arts expert. That’s expected at this point. And there’s no real strong conflict between the Asian and African communities in America that I’m aware of, though this could be my own ignorance.

With Danny, however, you have a white boy raised in an Asian culture, its ways and philosophies, then coming back to America to use the skills he learned to save the world. He is someone who can provide both an outside criticism of his birth country while showing an appreciation for the country he was raised in. He shows an open minded acceptance of another culture’s lifestyle, their ways, their people, the kind of open-mindedness that is often lacking in today’s world.

Furthermore, a strong element of Danny’s comic portrayal is his friendship with Luke Cage. Danny is a rich kid trained in a foreign land, a philosophical martial arts master. Luke Cage is a black man of the streets, someone very aware of modern American culture and society, a man who is impervious to firearms and strong enough to throw cars like baseballs. They could not be more different, yet a key element is how deep and strong their friendship is. They connect with each other, respect each other, and love each other like brothers. They bring out the best in each other, one helping the other in areas they lack, making each other better and stronger through their association.

In short, Luke and Danny are an example of what America SHOULD be. Our country seems more divided than ever, with issues of politics, race, gender and the like all bent on splintering us into little sub-groups that have nothing but contempt for each other. We let out differences divide us, make us antagonistic towards others, and we seem to gleefully burn bridges rather than mend fences.

Danny as he is does the opposite. He shows us that a white man can learn to appreciate and respect another culture. He shows us that he can become best friends with a man he has little in common with, breaking all racial and social divides. He shows us that we should be trying to change him to better reflect a part of the country. We should be changing to be more like him and embrace all parts of our country, and in truth, the world.

In Closing

Like I said, I can definitely appreciate the desire for an Asian superhero in the MCU, and I sincerely hope I have not offended anyone. At the same time, I felt this was a perspective that hadn’t been getting as much attention, and wanted to just throw it out there. For all of you that suffered through that long, mad rant, I thank you for your patience and time. Here’s hoping this series is as good as the previous Marvel Netflix series, and that it builds more bridges than it burns.

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Re: Netflix Iron Fist Race Issue: Why casting a white Iron Fist was the right decision.

Post by FuzzyBoots » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:48 pm

Ares wrote:
Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:39 am
Marvel’s other existing heroes such as Jimmy Woo, Jolt, Amadeus Cho and Nico Minoru could all appear as well. Jimmy has a strong connection to SHIELD and Agents of Atlas could get a fun Guardians of the Galaxy style film. Nico is a strong Asian character and part of a group that includes other minorities. Amadeus Cho’s mother has already been included and he has a strong Hulk connection. And Jolt could be an excellent addition as both a strong female heroine and one who actively avoids stereotyping as having powers completely unrelated to martial arts or mysticism.
^_^ Tina Minoru showed up Doctor Strange and there is a confirmed Runaways TV show that will have both Nico and Tina, so we're off to a good start.

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Re: Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

Post by Ares » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:17 am

I decided to just merge the "Marvel cast Iron Fist correctly" topic with this one. The other one was an admittedly a misguided attempt to be voice of descent amongst all of the people complaining about the choice of Danny's race, with the hopes that it being its own topic it might come up on Google or some such. It never has, to my knowledge, and would have just been seen as pointless ramblings by some jackass on-line. I apologize if that post from above was self-indulgent in any way.

However, with the Iron Fist series out, it's interesting how Danny's race is STILL an issue. A lot of the critics of the first 6 episodes gave the shows increasingly negative reviews, and many of them sited Danny's race as an issue. It was the lowest critically rated thing ever on Rotten Tomatoes. However, now with the full series out, the fans have the series rated at something around 80-85%, roughly on par with other Netflix MCU productions.

I haven't seen the series yet, I plan to binge it on Monday, but from what I've heard, the show is, at worst, a decent Netflix MCU series. Not the best, not the worst, but solid enough to stand alongside Matt, Luke and Jessica. It just annoys me that this series even had to deal with this mess.

I'm curious if anyone else has seen it, and if so, what your thoughts are.

As of now, I'm just excited for the Defenders, and hope Danny finally shaves that thing off of his chin.

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Re: Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

Post by Tattooedman » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:33 pm

I just finished watching Luke Cage, and overall I liked it but it's not my favorite of the MU Netflix stuff. I agree that it's as good as season 1 Daredevil (which I have my own issues with, but that's more the pacing of the overall story than anything else), but under Jessica Jones. I've got Iron Fist already on my list but have to wrap up a couple other shows I've been watching because I tend to basically watch NOTHING BUT the new MU Netflix shows (I can only manage an episode or two a day with my schedule).

Though I will point out that I completely agree with Ares post about the "race issue" with Danny.

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Re: Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

Post by L-Space » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:40 am

I've only seen the first 3 episodes, but they've all been decent. Though it has been pretty slow so far (at least compared to the other MCU series), I'm hoping it's going to start ramping up soon.
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Re: Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

Post by danelsan » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:14 am

I have not watched Jessica Jones, as I have zero interest in that, but of the remaining 3, I found Iron Fist the weaker one. The story is boring for extended periods of time, in part due to being too slow paced, and in part due to not exactly stellar writing. By the way, most quotations of some supposedly wise saying and other "nuggets of wisdom" are pretty terrible in the show.

The fighting scenes were generally not all that good, and the actor chosen for Danny doesn't look athletic* and in general didn't convince me much as Iron Fist, except for his initial naiveté and cluelessness. In terms of his fighting, this is part the fight choreography, part his likely own ineptitude at martial arts to my trained eyes, and part the inconsistency of his skill within the fiction, where this supposedly absolutely amazing martial artist can sometimes fight squads of well-trained fighters easily and sometimes has way too much trouble against a common thug or something.

Also, I feel the plot would be much more interesting if it had shown more of Dany path to becoming the Iron Fist.

It probably feels worse than it actually is in light of the other shows. Though frankly I didn't like Luke Cage all that much either. Overall, I'd say Iron fist probably sits around 6 to 7 out of 10. It is not really bad , but I wouldn't watch it again.


*maybe the same goes for Davos, but he is not seen without a shirt on. Colleen also wasn't very convincing as an athlete, and she is no good at fighting either (her bio says she trained some wushu for a previous role, but her kicks at that wooden post, for instance, were bad XD )

Heck, Claire quite possibly looks overall the fittest of every important character in the show, which is hilarious

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Re: Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

Post by BriarThrone » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:21 pm

I absolutely loved it. There were some flaws, sure, but if you're willing to grant some leeway for obvious limitations, they're forgivable. I'm going to start with the negatives, continue on through noteworthy points I don't feel strongly positive or negative about, and then end on the positive.

There are a few things I disagree with danelsan about, despite both of us apparently being trained martial artists. I don't know his training history. Mine is MOSTLY not Chinese, but I have enough kung fu background that it's not entirely like a Korean or Japanese stylist trying to critique kung fu.

- The pacing was... off. It did a great job of developing characters and relating stories and making us feel the things we were supposed to feel about those characters, but this is an Iron Fist story, not a drama about a corporate power struggle among assholes and against the naive rightful heir, and I feel like someone needed to remind the writer of this sooner. The kung fu was oddly sparse through this whole thing, especially at the beginning. This may be because
- The main actors needed another three months, minimum, of intensive martial arts training for their roles. Danny's skinniness is a bit weird, though kind of excused by his explicit emphasis on internal energy. The camera work makes it obvious when the stunt double is taking over, if you're paying attention, but sometimes he's doing his own techniques. Sometimes they're okay, sometimes they're a little amateurish-looking. However, if you know what you're looking for and pay attention, it's clear in his fight scenes that the actor playing Danny's opponent is always the more skilled and is leading the choreography. Which, at least, is better than the actress who played Colleen. She's beautiful, and I found nothing to fault with her acting otherwise, but her attacks were pretty sad. Hand, foot, sword... not impressed. I'm hoping she gets more training before the next series.
- At no point did Claire say "If you're going after the Hand this hard, I know a guy who would love to be involved. I should call him. In fact, it makes no sense for me not to call him, and you really could use the backup." Seriously, Claire, why?

o No hint, no joke, no anything about Danny in the green and yellow. Interesting decision. Done right, it could be an interesting nod to the comic. Done poorly, it could be, well... Luke Cage.
o Given the current political climate, it's interesting that they chose to go with Colleen Wing instead of Misty Knight as Danny's romantic interest. I mean, it's a black/white romance straight from the source material. They had to know that changing it would cause backlash. On the other hand, I'm just not sure how you could pair Misty and Danny, make it part of the story, and have it progress as naturally as Danny and Colleen's did. Misty and Colleen are, in my opinion, fuller characters in the MCU than they ever were in comics, and I just don't see a quick and easy way to pair MCU's Misty with Danny, while the Colleen romance subplot was natural, believable, and didn't require a lot of separate focus.

+ SJW outrage. WHITE CHARACTER IS WHITE. NOT DATING BLACK WOMAN. GIVE YOUR SALT UNTO ME, YE CHAMPIONS OF WHATEVER!
+ While I'm disappointed that more time wasn't devoted to awesome kung fu action, I appreciate the world-building and character development that they did with that time instead. All the different character arcs are intriguing and worthwhile.
+ Nice adaptation of characters and concepts from the Immortal Iron Fist storyline.
+ Most of the martial artists Danny fought were freaking AWESOME. My favorite was the Drunken Fist guy. Holy CRAP, that was some solid Drunken Fist.
+ A lot of Danny's choreography was brilliant, too, despite his execution not always being the best. I recognize those stances and strikes! Some of the technique choices were actually pretty great! I was afraid that, as is so often the case, the kung fu would be a secondary concern to looking cool, and while there was room to complain, I'm overjoyed that the effort was made at all.
+ I actually appreciate how Danny wasn't, at this point, a peerless, undefeatable martial artist, merely a damn good one with a really spiffy technique. He was vulnerable to numbers, surprise attacks, and mind games. Made the series feel grittier, and as such, it felt like it belonged in the MCU. This is the "inconsistency of his skill level" that danelsan talked about - sometimes the fight would go Danny's way, and sometimes he'd get slugged in the back of the head with brass knuckles before he knew there would be a fight, and it means that not every fight has to be with a superpowered opponent or a similarly super-elite martial artist to be a challenge.

So yeah, 9/10, would watch again.

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Re: Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

Post by Ares » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:48 am

So, I finally gave my thoughts on Iron Fist here. Overall, I enjoyed it immensely and will definitely watch it again.

Mostly it's got me very excited for the Defenders series, and it makes me curious how that's going to play out. Daredevil and Iron Fist have obvious connections with the Hand and Madame Gao. I suspect we'll also find out that Rand Enterprises was involved somehow in the accidents that gave Matt, Jessica and Luke their powers. Given exotic chemicals were used in all three of their origins, and all of them had to do with different types of enhancements (sensory, strength, regeneration), I wouldn't be surprised if there was one group responsible for them all, trying to build their own superhumans.

Seeing the heroes interact should be fun, and I really do hope we get the Luke and Danny bromance they have in the comic. I also hope we get Danny paired up with Misty Knight as well. I like Coleen, but I feel she and Danny kind of feed into each other the idea of solving their problems with violence, and Danny needs someone more down to Earth and grounded. Like I said before, Danny being a bridge builder, being friends with Luke, in a relationship with Misty and friends with Coleen should be a strength of the character.

I also admit, I do want one scene where Danny and Matt fight, and have it be pretty even early on. Danny starts to edge Matt out due to superior skill, Matt turns the tables using his weapons to kind of even the odds, etc. I also have to admit that I want to see Danny punch Luke with the Iron Fist at least once, given that's how their relationship started in the comics.

I also hope Danny shaves that damned beard off, finally.

Comparing the heroes abilities, I'd say:

Danny is the best fighter of the group, followed closely by Matt, with Luke as a distance third and Jessica being even further down. Because lets face it, while Luke has a combination of boxing and street fighting skills, Jessica mainly gets by on pure strength and nothing else.

Matt and Danny are probably roughly equal in terms of acrobatics, but Matt has the advantage in that his gear lets him travel quicker. Jessica beats them both in the sheer distance she can cover with leaps, while poor Luke has nothing going for him travel wise, save perhaps his motorcycle.

Luke is definitely the most durable of the group by a ways. He shrugs off bullets and being hit by a missile and then having a building fall on him only knocks him out for a short while. Even though Jessica is more durable than your average person, she's not bullet proof, and she can be KOed by someone with normal strength clubbing her in the head with a 2x4.

Luke and Jessica seemed fairly close strength wise at one point in her own series, but at another time when he was walking forward she could barely slow him down, let alone stop him. I'd say at this point, Luke is probably stronger than she is. Danny and Matt are both behind them by a far ways, being merely normal men of exceptional strength. However, I'd also say that Danny's Iron Fist has a lot more raw, destructive power than even Luke can match.

Skill wise, the group is pretty interesting. Both Matt and Danny are expert martial artists, acrobats and stealth experts, as well as knowing some meditative healing techniques. Matt is also an expert lawyer, while Danny is knowledgeable about mysticism. Jessica is a solid detective, while Luke has knowledge of police/military procedure and general street smarts.

Overall, they make for an interesting group.

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Re: Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

Post by MacynSnow » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:10 pm

Ares wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:48 am
So, I finally gave my thoughts on Iron Fist here. Overall, I enjoyed it immensely and will definitely watch it again.

Mostly it's got me very excited for the Defenders series, and it makes me curious how that's going to play out. Daredevil and Iron Fist have obvious connections with the Hand and Madame Gao. I suspect we'll also find out that Rand Enterprises was involved somehow in the accidents that gave Matt, Jessica and Luke their powers. Given exotic chemicals were used in all three of their origins, and all of them had to do with different types of enhancements (sensory, strength, regeneration), I wouldn't be surprised if there was one group responsible for them all, trying to build their own superhumans.

Seeing the heroes interact should be fun, and I really do hope we get the Luke and Danny bromance they have in the comic. I also hope we get Danny paired up with Misty Knight as well. I like Coleen, but I feel she and Danny kind of feed into each other the idea of solving their problems with violence, and Danny needs someone more down to Earth and grounded. Like I said before, Danny being a bridge builder, being friends with Luke, in a relationship with Misty and friends with Coleen should be a strength of the character.

I also admit, I do want one scene where Danny and Matt fight, and have it be pretty even early on. Danny starts to edge Matt out due to superior skill, Matt turns the tables using his weapons to kind of even the odds, etc. I also have to admit that I want to see Danny punch Luke with the Iron Fist at least once, given that's how their relationship started in the comics.

I also hope Danny shaves that damned beard off, finally.

Comparing the heroes abilities, I'd say:

Danny is the best fighter of the group, followed closely by Matt, with Luke as a distance third and Jessica being even further down. Because lets face it, while Luke has a combination of boxing and street fighting skills, Jessica mainly gets by on pure strength and nothing else.

Matt and Danny are probably roughly equal in terms of acrobatics, but Matt has the advantage in that his gear lets him travel quicker. Jessica beats them both in the sheer distance she can cover with leaps, while poor Luke has nothing going for him travel wise, save perhaps his motorcycle.

Luke is definitely the most durable of the group by a ways. He shrugs off bullets and being hit by a missile and then having a building fall on him only knocks him out for a short while. Even though Jessica is more durable than your average person, she's not bullet proof, and she can be KOed by someone with normal strength clubbing her in the head with a 2x4.

Luke and Jessica seemed fairly close strength wise at one point in her own series, but at another time when he was walking forward she could barely slow him down, let alone stop him. I'd say at this point, Luke is probably stronger than she is. Danny and Matt are both behind them by a far ways, being merely normal men of exceptional strength. However, I'd also say that Danny's Iron Fist has a lot more raw, destructive power than even Luke can match.

Skill wise, the group is pretty interesting. Both Matt and Danny are expert martial artists, acrobats and stealth experts, as well as knowing some meditative healing techniques. Matt is also an expert lawyer, while Danny is knowledgeable about mysticism. Jessica is a solid detective, while Luke has knowledge of police/military procedure and general street smarts.

Overall, they make for an interesting group.
Honestly,they need 1 Mystic-based Character,then they'll be The Defenders to me.Otherwise,they're Heroes-For-Hire(which is just as good for me)

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Ares
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Re: Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

Post by Ares » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:27 pm

MacynSnow wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:10 pm
Honestly,they need 1 Mystic-based Character,then they'll be The Defenders to me.Otherwise,they're Heroes-For-Hire(which is just as good for me)
Oh this definitely Defenders in name only. Its really more a hybrid of Heroes for Hire and Marvel Knights, but they likely felt that neither name fit. Luke has specifically turned down the idea of being a HfH, and Marvel Knights isn't a well known brand. Defenders was likely the team name with the most recognition they could slap on this group.

And with the unlikelyhood of seeing the classic Defenders, this is likely a way for Marvel to secure that name. Though it would be cool for Dr. Strange to sort of be the "Charlie" of the group, since the Hand are a threat Strange's mystics would logically oppose. And the MCU Strange isn't as overpowered as his comics counterpart, so in theory he could actually work with this group.

Then again, I also want to see them interact with Spider-Man, maybe throw in more folks like Cloak and Dagger, the White Tiger, Moon Knight, Shang Chi, etc.

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Re: Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

Post by StarGuard » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:12 am

Like its comic book origin, the name Defenders is close enough to Avengers it easily is adopted by those familiar with the latter of the two. I'd love to see a Strange cameo at the least but don't see it in the Netflix budget.

Strongest
Jessica Jones
Luke Cage

It's close but her stunts (like the bus) overall seem just a notch higher imo

Toughest
Luke Cage
Jessica Jones

Its not close but the girl can take a beating

Fighting Skill
Iron Fist
Daredevil

Close call, but Matt has peaked and is going the gadget route. Danny is going to just get better in a second season.
Speaking of Danny, I thought Finn was as physically perfect for the Iron Fist as Colter was for Cage.

Smartest
Daredevil
Jessica Jones

Overall Matt hands down but, Jessica might have the edge in street smarts by a notch.

The Glue that Binds
Night Nurse Claire

Don't look at the plot holes, look at how she is going to bring them together since we cant afford a Dr. Strange in the budget.

I see a lot of wishful thinking and I'm on Ares bandwagon almost step for step but doubt much if any of it will be fulfilled. I do like the speculation about the Rand Corporation ties to the Hand and Seagate. Strangely I'm hoping the don't Deus ex Machina Luke's release from prison and if their is a bromance, don't force it. I'd prefer a bionic armed Misty Knight and Danny connection but am pleased with how natural his and Collen's relationship seem to develop. If they can't do the same with Danny and Luke then please don't bother.

Leadership
With no Dr. Strange, I say borrow from the comics and have Luke lead when one is required. I like his energy, his cool, and even though outwardly and vocally reluctant, willingness to listen to others and work with them if needed.

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Re: Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

Post by Ares » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:39 am

I'd say Luke is stronger than Jessica at this point. While feats are difficult to compare due to the lower Netflix budget, there are a couple of things that make me give it to Luke. One is when Luke was crumpling a dumpster around a criminal, doing so fairly easily. Another is how Luke is pretty casual about punching through walls and the like. And the latter was that he and Jessica have tested their strength against each other a few times. The first was during some foreplay, and there the two looked pretty close. The second time was when Luke was trying to kill a man he blamed for his wife's death. There, even when Jessica was pushing against him and trying to hold him in place, Luke kept moving forward. The last time was when Luke was under Kilgrave's mind control and he was pretty much demolishing Jessica, requiring to use a shotgun on him (though how THAT managed to take him out is still kind of weird).

Now, it's possible the two are comparatively strong and Luke's greater durability means he can exercise his full strength more effectively without harming himself the way Jessica would. And Jessica does have a good showing where she stops a car with one hand. But I'd say Luke is stronger at this point.

Heh, stat comparisons. Now this place is truly a comic / rpg site.

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Re: Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

Post by MacynSnow » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:45 pm

Ares wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:39 am
The last time was when Luke was under Kilgrave's mind control and he was pretty much demolishing Jessica, requiring to use a shotgun on him (though how THAT managed to take him out is still kind of weird).
if you remember your Luke Cage,Hero-For-Hire Lore correctly,you'll remember that the Late,Great Coackroach Hamilton broke Luke's arm (and cracked a rib)with a 6 Barrel Shotgun at Point Blank Range.While it couldn't penetrate his skin(you'd need Armor Piercing Rounds for that&they just don't have any for Shotguns,as far as i know),the force of it was enough to do damage.

I personally hope we see Hamilton as one of the...Sigh...Defenders enemies,as just thinking of the visual on that shotgun blow's my mind....

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Re: Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

Post by L-Space » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:17 pm

Ares wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:39 am
The last time was when Luke was under Kilgrave's mind control and he was pretty much demolishing Jessica, requiring to use a shotgun on him (though how THAT managed to take him out is still kind of weird).
I figured it was a combination of it being a point blank shot directly under the chin and the 'shockwave' bouncing around his skull. Or it was a power attack + crit by Jessica Jones :P.

I'm hoping for some good interactions between Luke and Danny so we see a friendship form between them. Hell it could start with Luke listening to Danny's iPod and appreciating his taste in music :D.
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Re: Marvel's Cinematic Netflix Universe: General Discussion

Post by BriarThrone » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:57 pm

MacynSnow wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:45 pm
While it couldn't penetrate his skin(you'd need Armor Piercing Rounds for that&they just don't have any for Shotguns,as far as i know),
There's hundreds of types of armor piercing ammo for shotguns. "Armor piercing" is a just how you describe a round with enough of certain characteristics, and they're pretty simple.

1. Use a very hard metal. You want as little deformation as possible. When shooting soft targets, deformation does more damage, but when shooting hard targets, it broadens the surface trying to go through, and that reduces penetration.
2. You want as little friction as possible, so make it as aerodynamic and smooth as you can. Some are even coated in Teflon.
3. Your round is useless if it tumbles, so use a design that flies straight. Again, soft targets vs hard targets.
4. Use a heavy load. More velocity is better.

There are some other little factors, but this will get you most of the way there, which means that just about any metalworker with the ability to load shotguns can put together a decent armor piercer. There are designs all over online.

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