BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by L-Space » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:05 pm

FuzzyBoots wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:23 pm
BriarThrone wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:59 pm
I think a lot of the fan anger is directed at that bit, actually. Where the guy who is literally Christ the Redeemer, who found the good in a psychotic mass murderer, finds out that his nephew picked up a few naughty ideas from a bad guy and is instantly overcome by his ancestral love of playing with defenseless children with lightsabers. "I know there is still good in you. The Emperor has not driven it from you fully." vs "Nip it in the bud."
Well, to be frank, people tend to think differently when they're sixteen versus sixty. Insert any number of jokes about the shift from voting Democrat to Republican, Liberal to Conservative, etc. Also, the movie establishes that it was a moment of doubt that he then quashed (assuming, of course, Luke was telling the truth there. We have unreliable narrators, of course). Funnily enough, this fits with the younger Luke, who kept saying "I see good in you", then started attacking when he got angry enough, only relenting late in the battle when Darth Vader was at his mercy and Palpatine overplayed his hand.

So we get a Luke who, in a moment of fear, ignited his lightsaber (possibly, as he stated, because it was comforting as a symbol of the Jedi), then changed his mind, only for Kylo Ren to assume that his worst fears were real and lash out. Luke, realizing what a mistake he made and thinking himself unworthy of continuing the line of the Jedi, shuts down and runs off. It's not a heroic action, but he is literally despairing.
Not much for me to say, Fuzzy keeps nailing it on the head and is putting it better than I could :lol:.

I do find it funny that you (Briar) call Luke literally Christ the Redeemer, a pretty high mantle, when in The Last Jedi Luke states: “I failed because I was Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master; a legend." and has a whole bit about believing too hard in legends is a dangerous thing.
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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by BriarThrone » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:00 am

L-Space wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:05 pm
FuzzyBoots wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:23 pm
BriarThrone wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:59 pm
I think a lot of the fan anger is directed at that bit, actually. Where the guy who is literally Christ the Redeemer, who found the good in a psychotic mass murderer, finds out that his nephew picked up a few naughty ideas from a bad guy and is instantly overcome by his ancestral love of playing with defenseless children with lightsabers. "I know there is still good in you. The Emperor has not driven it from you fully." vs "Nip it in the bud."
Well, to be frank, people tend to think differently when they're sixteen versus sixty. Insert any number of jokes about the shift from voting Democrat to Republican, Liberal to Conservative, etc. Also, the movie establishes that it was a moment of doubt that he then quashed (assuming, of course, Luke was telling the truth there. We have unreliable narrators, of course). Funnily enough, this fits with the younger Luke, who kept saying "I see good in you", then started attacking when he got angry enough, only relenting late in the battle when Darth Vader was at his mercy and Palpatine overplayed his hand.

So we get a Luke who, in a moment of fear, ignited his lightsaber (possibly, as he stated, because it was comforting as a symbol of the Jedi), then changed his mind, only for Kylo Ren to assume that his worst fears were real and lash out. Luke, realizing what a mistake he made and thinking himself unworthy of continuing the line of the Jedi, shuts down and runs off. It's not a heroic action, but he is literally despairing.
Not much for me to say, Fuzzy keeps nailing it on the head and is putting it better than I could :lol:.

I do find it funny that you (Briar) call Luke literally Christ the Redeemer, a pretty high mantle, when in The Last Jedi Luke states: “I failed because I was Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master; a legend." and has a whole bit about believing too hard in legends is a dangerous thing.
Except that he wasn't. Nothing about the character we saw Mark Hamill playing was authentically Luke Skywalker, which Hamill openly and publicly declared. They needed to shove the fall of Ben Solo and Luke's retreat to Yoda-like hermitage into the script, so we get this awful mess of a backstory that has no respect for any of the characters that came before. All the commentary says that this movie is an effort to break from the bonds of old continuity and move forward. While I do give credit for not being a rehash of Movie n-3, like Episode 7 was, this goes too far in the other direction and rejects everything that made Star Wars great. It has some familiar set pieces and that's it.

I haven't been much of a Star Wars fan in a long time, and even I am a little aggrieved that people think you can draw a straight line between RotJ Luke and Luke as he's presented in the current trilogy. Actual fans are hurt and angry.

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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by FuzzyBoots » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:07 am

BriarThrone wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:00 am
Except that he wasn't. Nothing about the character we saw Mark Hamill playing was authentically Luke Skywalker, which Hamill openly and publicly declared. They needed to shove the fall of Ben Solo and Luke's retreat to Yoda-like hermitage into the script, so we get this awful mess of a backstory that has no respect for any of the characters that came before. All the commentary says that this movie is an effort to break from the bonds of old continuity and move forward. While I do give credit for not being a rehash of Movie n-3, like Episode 7 was, this goes too far in the other direction and rejects everything that made Star Wars great. It has some familiar set pieces and that's it.
Eh, early on, Mark Hamill expressed concerns, but he came around.
Mark Hamill wrote:I was quoted as saying to Rian that I fundamentally disagree with everything you decided about Luke, and it was inartfully phrased. What I was, was surprised at how he saw Luke. And it took me a while to get around to his way of thinking, but once I was there it was a thrilling experience. I hope it will be for the audience too.
Now one could probably see that cynically as "Mark Hamill was required to change his stance by the Powers that Be" or "Money, dear boy," but his concerns seemed to be before he actually started filming the script. As an actor, I can say that's a pretty common thing, where a scene doesn't make sense until you start rehearsing and performing it.

I of course won't deny that there are fans who were disappointed and you have every right to feel how you do about the film — I myself thought that it suffered on pacing and plot arc — but my experience has been that fan reactions are simply mixed with some people loving it, some people hating it, and others thinking it was good, but not great. I'm in the third camp, personally. And, of course, there are people who enjoyed it, but didn't like it as a Star Wars movie.

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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by L-Space » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:23 pm

BriarThrone wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:00 am
Except that he wasn't. Nothing about the character we saw Mark Hamill playing was authentically Luke Skywalker, which Hamill openly and publicly declared. They needed to shove the fall of Ben Solo and Luke's retreat to Yoda-like hermitage into the script, so we get this awful mess of a backstory that has no respect for any of the characters that came before. All the commentary says that this movie is an effort to break from the bonds of old continuity and move forward. While I do give credit for not being a rehash of Movie n-3, like Episode 7 was, this goes too far in the other direction and rejects everything that made Star Wars great. It has some familiar set pieces and that's it.

I haven't been much of a Star Wars fan in a long time, and even I am a little aggrieved that people think you can draw a straight line between RotJ Luke and Luke as he's presented in the current trilogy. Actual fans are hurt and angry.
I highly disagree. This movie felt like a Star Wars and did it without having to rehash old tropes and everything that happened to Luke felt like a natural reaction for what happened to him.

And you may not have meant it this way, but I'm getting real sick and tired of people acting like they get to decide who is and isn't a Star Wars fan based off whether or not they liked The Last Jedi. Some real fans liked it and some real fans hated it. Either way the only person who gets to decide whether or not you're a fan of something is you.
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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by BriarThrone » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:01 pm

L-Space wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:23 pm
BriarThrone wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:00 am
Except that he wasn't. Nothing about the character we saw Mark Hamill playing was authentically Luke Skywalker, which Hamill openly and publicly declared. They needed to shove the fall of Ben Solo and Luke's retreat to Yoda-like hermitage into the script, so we get this awful mess of a backstory that has no respect for any of the characters that came before. All the commentary says that this movie is an effort to break from the bonds of old continuity and move forward. While I do give credit for not being a rehash of Movie n-3, like Episode 7 was, this goes too far in the other direction and rejects everything that made Star Wars great. It has some familiar set pieces and that's it.

I haven't been much of a Star Wars fan in a long time, and even I am a little aggrieved that people think you can draw a straight line between RotJ Luke and Luke as he's presented in the current trilogy. Actual fans are hurt and angry.
I highly disagree. This movie felt like a Star Wars and did it without having to rehash old tropes and everything that happened to Luke felt like a natural reaction for what happened to him.

And you may not have meant it this way, but I'm getting real sick and tired of people acting like they get to decide who is and isn't a Star Wars fan based off whether or not they liked The Last Jedi. Some real fans liked it and some real fans hated it. Either way the only person who gets to decide whether or not you're a fan of something is you.
And that's fine. Everything we're discussing here is subjective. It's art interpretation. You can disagree with me and not be wrong. Technically. Sort of.

The Last Jedi had X-Wings and TIE Fighters and Star Destroyers and AN EVEN BIGGER SHIP and a new bomber that has a pretty Star Wars-like design engaging in a couple pretty sweet space battles. It had lightsabers and the old familiar Force powers and some... adequate, I guess... battles with those too. (Adequate-I-guess personal battles are definitely a hallmark of Star Wars.) It had Chewie being Chewie, other familiar faces responding to familiar names, and R2 doing a sweet callback to ANH by playing that original recording of Leia. It had an aspiring Jedi begging a reluctant old hermit for training. If that all adds up to a Star Wars movie to you, then by all means, enjoy.

To me, the whole movie felt too busy doing nothing but getting lost in itself. It opens with Poe doing Marvel Movie Humor, which is... ugh. Then, yeah, okay, cool space battle, and then we split into three plots:
1) incompetent good guys running from incompetent bad guys, because their ships are all EXACTLY AS FAST AS EACH OTHER, for some reason, and the good guys have no apparent goal except DO AS YOU'RE TOLD I AM THE BOSS OF YOU, for... reasons... which pointlessly spawns -

2) desperate mutiny sidequest that wastes a ton of time and accomplishes nothing except allow DISNEYCORP to lecture me on the evils of capitalism and completely fails to build the romantic subplot they're going to pretend at the end was totally there the whole time.

Then there's 3) Rey begging for training. Which would feel like Star Wars - because this part they did rip straight off of ESB - if they didn't fuck it all to Hell and back, with Rey spending all her training time telling Luke he's wrong, Yoda showing up to do the "trust your heart" thing that completely contradicts everything he's ever said ever, etc. We learn that our hero, who has been a larger-than-life ideal to many of us our entire lives, reaches some sort of decision point in a struggle we don't really see or understand, but instead of being the larger-than-life ideal we were all hoping to see, he turns out to be a shitty little coward, for... reasons. Fucking wonderful. See, the movie has other flaws, but this, right here, encapsulates it all to me. Rian Johnson clearly hates Star Wars, its lore, its legacy, and its fans. This plot point says, loud and clear, "FUCK YOUR HEROES, AND FUCK YOUR FRANCHISE." Regardless of if you think it's a believable human reaction, it's not what we expect, not what we NEED from Luke Skywalker. Star Wars was a story about mythic heroes. The Last Jedi is a DECONSTRUCTION of that.

To me, plot 1 didn't feel like Star Wars, because it was a slow tension plot in a space opera series. That's certainly new and different, but... is it appropriate? It certainly wasn't effective, because if you're building slow tension, you have to keep it up. You don't cut away to a filler plot. Plot 2 felt like... well, it actually felt more like Star Wars, because the prequels are part of the canon, and the Finn/Rose casino arc was very prequel-feeling. Plot 3 was the meat of the story, by far the most evocative of classic Star Wars, but it used that to REJECT everything people loved about the original trilogy, and... it really hurt fans' feelings, for reasons you really should be able to understand.

I could go on to cover the conclusion, where it all ties back together, but... meh. Instead, I'll just point out that in the Original Trilogy, the Force was something that could act through you as you harmonized with it, through training and great effort. In the modern trilogy, the Force is constantly acting on its own through untrained or barely-trained agents, or just causing things to be so. It creates an entirely different type of story. A more Disney one.

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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by FuzzyBoots » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:37 pm

I agree with you that Plot 1 and Plot 2 were the weakest parts of the film. It makes sense that overthrowing "The Empire" in the original Trilogy wasn't going to stick. It was one victory, but you had a lot of people out there with powerful weaponry and years of chafing to take the reins. It was a recipe for warlords more than anything else, which is why I wasn't really a fan of the First Order setup. It would make sense for them to be a powerful group since someone was bound to wind up with a larger share, and there's bound to be superweapons (reminds me of how, when the U.S.S.R. collapsed, people were talking about how we were going to wind up with Russian gangs and warlords with nuclear weapons) but it feels more like they assumed that everyone would flock under the same flag and leader. Eh... I guess it could still work if you assume that the First Order were the upstarts and them demonstrating their superweapon (and decapitating the government) led to others joining up to be on the winning side. And the Republic collapsing in the wake of the attack also makes sense because, well, they were kind of a ragtag group to start with, and a lot of people were probably standing on the sidelines, waiting to see how it all turned out before taking sides. Anyhow, yeah, the slow-motion chase worked in the sense of "The rebellion is short on resources and on the run, but the actual mechanic didn't work, and they did too good of a job of making Admiral Holdo unlikeable without actually providing the justification (in one of the canonical books, they cover where she got her reputation from... and that many of her forces were among the bombers that Poe sacrificed for his glorious victory over the Dreadnaughts. Honestly, part of the problem with it all was that it was indecisive on the important part, of whether it was justifiable to secure a great victory at great loss, particularly when they are the small guerilla force.

Plot 2... yeah, we didn't need that. Best commentary I've seen of it was that the plot was summed up in the original trilogy as "Many Bothans died for this information". Because of how they're handling the the continuity as a relay race, I can't say how the ninth movie will handle the "romance" you're mentioning, but the movie makes it out to be a one-sided hero worship crush that Finn really isn't all that into.

As regards Plot 3, I liked their time on the planet. Yes, this was not the "rush into things and trust that the good guys will always win" Luke from the original trilogy. It was a Luke who had put all of his trust into the future and felt that he'd lost it all due to his own weakness. And, like Obi-Wan and Yoda before him, he reacted by running away, and cutting himself off from everything that made his life good because he felt he didn't deserve it. He's spent years marinating in his own guilt, probably running the scene over and over in his head, imagining what he could have done better. Then, Rey shows up, throwing in his face his great reputation and insisting that it's all up to him again (side note, part of the "Relay Race" plotting involved Abrams originally having the final shot with Luke having massive boulders floating behind him to show he was still the Jedi Macdaddy, just resting in his tent). Rey shook him up, not convincing him by the strength of her argument, but impressing him enough to start to pull out from his funk a bit before she started behaving in a way that touched on his trauma and he withdrew again. When they finally fought, he had no access to his Force abilities (or was at least very rusty) and he was up against someone who has been fighting most of her life, but he nonetheless managed to rally until she pulled in superior firepower, the lightsaber he'd thrown away. And, well, we know how he ended it all.

Overall, it was a poorly plotted movie, but I think Ach-To was the best part of it.

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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by Ares » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:25 pm

And now, JJ Abrams has decided to follow in the footsteps of Paul Feig and the 2016 Ghostbusters movieby blaming any backlash against The Last Jedi as people "being afraid of women". Spoony and his girlfriend said something similar during their review of the movie.

And frankly, both statements just annoy the ever living crap out of me. I hate identity politics and oppression Olympics in general, but especially when its used as some kind of shield for accountability. No Abrams, you allowed a bad movie to be made. You allowed someone to take a big, steaming crap over one of the most beloved franchises in history, as well as the main hero of said franchise, with a poorly plotted, bloated film that was not good and barely resembled a Star Wars film. Of all the reasons people didn't like this movie, "there were too many girls" was not one of them. Rogue One also had a female lead, showcased strong female characters, and was a much beloved addition to the Star Wars franchise because it was a GOOD MOVIE. Accept that you screwed up and try to make your next film better, while the rest of the Star Wars fandom wait for episodes 7-9 to get retconned Highlander 2 style.

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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by BriarThrone » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:22 am

Ares wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:25 pm
And now, JJ Abrams has decided to follow in the footsteps of Paul Feig and the 2016 Ghostbusters movieby blaming any backlash against The Last Jedi as people "being afraid of women". Spoony and his girlfriend said something similar during their review of the movie.

And frankly, both statements just annoy the ever living crap out of me. I hate identity politics and oppression Olympics in general, but especially when its used as some kind of shield for accountability. No Abrams, you allowed a bad movie to be made. You allowed someone to take a big, steaming crap over one of the most beloved franchises in history, as well as the main hero of said franchise, with a poorly plotted, bloated film that was not good and barely resembled a Star Wars film. Of all the reasons people didn't like this movie, "there were too many girls" was not one of them. Rogue One also had a female lead, showcased strong female characters, and was a much beloved addition to the Star Wars franchise because it was a GOOD MOVIE. Accept that you screwed up and try to make your next film better, while the rest of the Star Wars fandom wait for episodes 7-9 to get retconned Highlander 2 style.
The TL;DR version of this: "The Diversity Defense has been deployed." Base a movie, album, etc on race, gender, or sexuality, so that if it gets criticized for being agenda-driven instead of good, the problem is obviously the bigots who don't like the race, gender, or sexuality you're championing.

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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by Arkrite » Sun May 27, 2018 2:24 am

Wow.
This movie was bad.

It can't seem to pick a tone, it can't seem to pick a story, it seems to crap all over the older movies. What it doesn't damage it quietly pushes off camera as fast as possible.

The thing that stuck with me the most? The amount of wasted time.

Work with me here, how much of this movie could be cut without having a real impact on the finale?

Poor, poor Finn. I love the underdog and I really wanted to see him grow and come into his own.
In this movie? You could cut him entirely and you wouldn't notice the loss. He gets a big buildup as being the final hope for saving the day, but it's just kind of undone making everything he's done pointless.

Rose... well, she seemed okay for a background character I honestly didn't care about. And then at the end she attempts to murder... err, sorry, she "saves" Finn preventing him from (again) having any profound impact on the story. And then, in spite of a complete lack of chemistry and very platonic relationship she's suddenly in love with him?

Poe... the first victim of the tone issue. You show up in an X-Wing in front of an enemy fleet and they don't shoot you down? And for what? A Your Mama Joke.
*Facepalm*
Poe spends most of the movie seeming like the hero trying to save everybody from the villainously incompetent military leader, who spends all of their time twirling their mustache until... surprise, she was right all along!

...

Except for the part where the terrible plan that Poe said would get everybody killed actually gets everybody killed.

Leia appears to sound really old, complain about things and suddenly become superman. She just randomly has enough force power to fly through space after being exploded out into the void... and somehow get back inside in spite of the fact that there's no airlock and the door she's trying to open leads to outer space...
She mostly spends the movie grousing about Poe's choices, in a coma, or sitting quietly to the side. Oh, she also shoots Poe when simply talking would have resolved the issue. But then again they situation wouldn't have happened if people talked.

Jake Skywalker - At one time Luke risked the entire galaxy in the belief that a man who'd kill hundreds, if not thousands, and had condemned the galaxy to the yoke of slavery under the rule of the empire, was worthy of redemption.
But apparently one vision of a future where he kills people and it's time to murder a completely innocent kid in his sleep. No point in giving him a second chance.
I know, he "hesitated" but only after being seconds from killing him.
And after failing that he goes and hides wishing to die in obscurity.
Which is why he left a map on how to find him in the previous movie.
*facepalm*
Yeah, this isn't Luke. This is Jake Skywalker, slightly addled clone and general grumpy old man.

Chewie - Oh Chewie. I know he was always a background character and often played for laughs, but he's demoted to being Rey's chauffeur and stuck interacting with the CGI birds.
...
Am I the only person who thought they looked pretty poor?


So lets see, it's been... days(?) since the last movie, The First Order has gone from a rather crippling loss to suddenly controlling the entire galaxy?
Poe tries to take out their Dreadnought and... okay, so lets throw this out here now. Why are there so few fighters in these scenes? I realize back in the day it was due to budget constraints for special effects, but now it seems like there's about seven fighters on either side at any given time.
Couldn't we have some more fighters to make this seem like a real challenge?

Okay, so Poe takes out the turrets on the ship and is called back before an attack can put into place.
So then why as Poe sent out? What did this accomplish?
And then, in spite of being called back, Poe orders the attack.
And Leia, the de-facto leader of the Uh, Resistance(?) who has ordered Poe off doesn't just order everybody else back? *sigh*
Okay, so the good news is they have Y-Wings and the new B-Wing bombers to destroy the... oh, never mind, we have the worst designed, slowest, most fragile bombers in existence because the director has a WWII bomber fixation.

So many issues in such short order.
-Why is there only one switch to drop the bombs?
-Why can't the pilot do it?
-Why is it a remote control? Shouldn't there be multiple wall slots to do it for each member in case of emergencies? A remote can be dropped and lost (For an example of this please see Star Wars: The Last Jedi)
-Why does the woman watch it fall past her so she can roll over and catch it with the arm that was further away instead of just reaching out and grabbing it? (Oh right drama... but it just looks stupid)
-Why does it look like the bombs are dropping due to a non-existent gravity?
-Why does opening your ship to the vacuum of space have no visible results on the people inside? I don't see any force fields holding things in, and that lady is not wearing a mask. (Does the director not understand how space works? I mean, I don't, but at least I know the basics)

Anyways, Poe is quickly demoted for getting so many people killed destroying the enemy. This will be hilarious later when ships are running out of gas and being shot out of the sky for no reason.

Now for the silliest nonsense in the entire movie. The enemies are chasing the Resistance, but apparently the resistance has ships that are small enough to be faster than the First Order's ships, but not so fast that they can actually out run them, but they can get out of laser range...
*bangs head against wall*

Well thankfully they're fully loaded with star fighters which can go fast enough to just shoot them all down. Except they don't.
All they need to do is put in one line "Why waste our pilots? They'll run out of fuel and we'll destroy them at our leisure"
But they don't because they never thought of it.
Also, Fuel? That's the first time that's ever been an issue.

Anyways, this is to fit us into the story that can be completely cut. Everything after the ship gets blown up and the space race starts could be cut without anything being lost.
At all.

It think I've covered what happens next but, hell, lets do this quickly.
Leia done got blew up but apparently she's super powerful in the force so avoids death, but allows Mustache Twirler to be the new leader. She is portrayed as a bad guy in the film so they can have a sudden turn around later, but for the moment forces people to come up with a plan to save them all.
The plan? Get Maz to show up and help them disable the magic tracking device on the lead ship.

Oh, no, wait, that would be far to the point.
So she leads them to somebody who is built up as being some awesome sauce badass. Oh yeah, time to bring in Lando and-
Wait, really? No?
*sighs*

Okay, apparently we're looking for Rando Hackingstuff.

So our heroes steal a... uh... a ship? They steal a ship and hyperjump out. And nobody follows them.
So why don't they just start launching all the small ships and all jump out at the same time?
There's no reason why the First Order couldn't spare a few ships to go destroy... *sigh* Nevermind, lets just move on.

Okay, so we get a casino scene which looks way too... normal. It looks normal.
Normal.
It really didn't feel like a Star Wars setting. It was overly played for laughs, and none of the jokes landed.
Our heroes are thrown in jail almost immediately for... a parking violation? A parking violation. Who's writing this garbage?
Well I can't tell if the security is just way too over the top or our heroes are just morons but whatever.

We meet Stutters (because it's easier to write than Curse-Your-Sudden-But-Inevitable-Betrayal) who saves the day for the heroes twice. Not having any other choice they just go with him.

Wait... did Finn just fly a ship? Wasn't his complete inability to fly a ship a major plot point in the movie that took place less than a week ago?

Oh well, I'm sure it's not as strange as the fact that Rey knows how to swim. Did you miss that the first tie too?
Yeah, she falls in a pool of water and just swims.
She was born on a desert planet and seeing green or large amounts of water is unheard of. But she can swim.

Okay, I really don't care so super faster forward for Rey.
"Luke train me."
"No."
::Actual good scene with an emoting Luke and R2::
"Okay I'll train you. This is how you sense the force."
"Cool, I'll go swing a lightsabre wildly for awhile to pretend I've trained in sword fighting, have a pointless run in with a mirror, steal your books, and kick your ass in a fight."
"Uh... I was trained by two Jedi masters, and spent years training Jedi..."
"It's in the script."
"... Right."

Luke doesn't act like Luke, mopes about, we get multiple scenes which don't help progress any characters or the plot and finally Rey decides to go confront Kylo Ren to try to bring him back.

You know. Luke's plot.

But we're to busy pushing Rey.

Rey, in spite of HATING Kylo in the last movie, decides that saving him is something she needs to do. She lacks motivation, but suddenly she's all in. As opposed to Luke who probably should be doing this.

So she goes in, finds out that Kylo is far to wussy to stand against Snoke, and then we get a confrontation with Snoke. Snoke's big plan for Rey? Kill her!
... *facepalm* that was the big build up from the last movie? Agh.
Okay, so we get a delightfully funny but tonally wrong sequence of Rey getting smacked in the head by a lightsabre. It's nice to see her fail for a change, but the humor is wrong for the scene.

And then Snoke is killed as almost an afterthought. He's built up as an unstoppable force and is taken out like a punk. Revealing his utter unimportance. Glad we spent so much time on building him up.

And then we get what is supposed to be an awesome fight which is kind of cringeworthy.
These Pratorean Guards are supposed to be elite combatants, best of the best with weapons that can counter lightsabres. And they're tooled by an untrained desert rat and the pouty boy she beat up like a week earlier.
They could have had a fun back to back battle down a tight coridor with the heros struggling to survive, or even have them only surviving because their force powers (pushing, tossing, hurling debris) give them enough of an edge to take on foes with superior training.

Nope, Rey just rips them to shreds. And they run into the usual "group waits for hero to be ready so they can attack on at a time" or "Group attacks at the same time from the same angle so hero can deflect all in one move" tropes.

*sigh*

They had some opportunities for interesting moves here.
But lets be honest, they just killed the big bad of the series, so Kylo has to be evil. Or they'd have to introduce a bad guy for the finale of the series. And since they neutered Hux throughout this movie it's hard to imagine him being the bad guy.

One inexplicable dual KO later, Rey flees off screen.
She doesn't try to kill Kylo. Or tie him up and kidnap him. She just... bails.
Since it was off screen we can't even see if there was extenuating circumstances. So it just comes across as kind of dumb.
Other things she doesn't do? Steal Kylo's light sabre.
He broke yours, take his!

Anyways, mustache twirler's brilliant plan is discovered, somehow, by Stutters. And when he's caught he sells them out and the First Order starts shooting all the defenseless ships that was escaping under cloaks. Because up to that point the First Order didn't bother with cloak scans. Which are a thing.

Anyways, Stutters sells out Finn, they're caught and Phasma, who's desperate to have anything to do in this movie, decides to execute Finn and Rose with axes.
No real reason for it, but still.
They are saved as Mustache Twirler uses the empty Resistance ship to hyperspace jump into the enemy fleet and cripples the... opening a giant plot hole of "Why didn't they do this in the last six movies?" and "Why aren't the enemies aware this is a risk until it's too late?"

Well this attack has the effect of emptying the entire room of storm troopers and filling the room with wreckage and fire.

Phasma teleports away so she can have another dramatic entry. Then magically loses a gun so her and Finn can have a melee fight. Finn loses, which seems to fit his character as he hasn't had any training, but wins by blindsiding Phasma after she assumes he's dead.
And she falls to her doom in fire.

Now I would assume she's dead, but she strikes me as that person who just keeps coming back. So she'll be back in the next movie, inexplicably, but this time with an eyepatch.

So everything they've done has been a failure, almost everybody is dead, and it seems like the movie should have been over already.
So time for another half hour of movie.

Finn somehow beats the First Order to the base, though I can't for the life of me even remember if he was supposed to know about it. I'll just assume he was. Somehow.

They find the base is basically empty, has no means of escape, and now they're trapped. They call for help and mount a final defense.
Poe leads everybody in a salt-speeder attack on the enemy to somehow destroy the uber laser the First Order is going to use to blow open the base.
... Instead of bombarding it from space.
So they fly out, never fire any guns, and Poe realizes that a pointless suicide attack is dumb.

But Finn realizes that there is something more important than just survival, and puts the resistance above his own life. For the first time in the movie he moves to make a deep and meaningful impact.

But his sacrifice is undone by a suicide attack by Rose who is... how is she able to stop him? She pulled away, he's way ahead of her, and she somehow gets far enough ahead of him to hit him from the side.

Anyways, they survive against all odds, and she feeds him a line about how killing enemies with hatred isn't how they're going to win. But beating them with love. As the enemy blows open the Resistance stronghold in the background. And then she kisses Finn because...

Why the hell does she do that? A concussion? Some form of mental damage?
They've had no chemistry the entire time, and they haven't really bonded at all.
Ugh.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Rey was saved, off screen, by Chewie, and she shows up to blow up three tie fighters in on shot. Because she's the god damned Batman!

Luke finally shows up, we get a short scene with Leia then he goes out to fight off everybody to... uh... well, everybody assumes he's buying them time to escape but they have no ships, and Luke isn't actually there so he didn't come in through a side entrance.

Luke acts like a bad action movie star, taunting Kylo when they can't shoot him to death, then matrix dodge an attack.
You know the move would have been pretty cool if they hadn't done the slowmo.

Luke does the Obiwan speech about killing him and... doesn't die. Because he's an illusion. Nice twist! Luke survives and can move back into being the hero that we love and- oh @*$* it all he dies for no reason!!!
::bangs head against wall::

Okay, so we've murdered off Luke so he can't get in Rey's way in the next movie. But we still have Lei-oh crap.

So the movie ends with the entire Resistance, all of them, in the Falcon flying to safety... I guess none of the other First Order ships have those trackers, then?
So yeah, about two dozen people escape. And nobody came to help the resistance.

But don't worry, there is... oh who cares anymore?


Obviously the guy who wrote this never watched Star Wars, nobody who knew Star Wars was in a position to veto any of this nonsense, and the reoccurring theme I get is "the old stuff sucks, here's the new stuff!" as they frantically try to push all old characters out of the movie.
And what do they do with the old characters out of the way? Squander the time and effort put in to getting them out of the way.

I'm not even going to talk about Rey's Mary Sue issue. No, wait, I will.
Daisy: Being a Mary Sue isn't about being a female. It's about being perfect at everything, loved by everybody, and never fails unless it makes her look better.
I think the actress is fine, and with proper writing and direction Rey could be a fun character if she had to work, at all, for anything. But at this point? Meh.

I still care more for Finn and he's been made into a useless buttmonkey. But at least he's trying.

There is no saving this movie, but there is still hope: Mark Hamill is still alive.
Mulligan the movie. Pretend it never happened, mark it down as a fever dream in Rey's mind as Snoke was trying to... mind damage her with the force or something. I don't care.
Just go back, do another movie and wipe the Last Jedi from the board.

Oh, and in case you're wondering? No, do not buy, do not rent. Netflix it if you have to. But please don't give them money for this.

God, now I just feel horrible every time I see how miserable Mark Hamill looks in every one of his interviews. He looks like somebody killed his dog.
And after seeing what they did to Luke I know why.

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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by Ares » Sun May 27, 2018 4:57 am

*embraces Arkrite* My brother. Truly, you understand.

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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by Batgirl III » Sun May 27, 2018 5:12 am

Solo apparently is having the worst opening weekend of any SW film to date. No doubt, we’re going to see a thousand and one think-pieces on Tuesday telling us this is because the Star Wars fans are raaaaacist and don’t like how prominent a part Lando has in the movie.

No one will think to ask themselves, “Hmm, do you think that maybe the since this is the thirteenth feature length film in a franchise that maybe the audience is just... bored?”

Oh, no, it’s not that. It couldn’t possibly be that Star Wars has made thirteen films and that more than half of them boil down to the same ‘x learns they’re special; x rescues y; x, y, and rag-tag group z rally to destroy the doomsday weapon’ plot. Nooooo! It’s all because Star Wars fans are a bunch of –ists, –isms, something-phobes, and anti–whatevers!
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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by Ares » Sun May 27, 2018 5:47 am

I'd argue that the Star Wars franchise has plenty of storytelling opportunities left in it. The amount of novels, video games, tv shows, comics and so on showcase that there's plenty of things that could make for solid stories. I mean, hell, the Marvel Cinematic Universe has something like 19 movies at this point, and they're still going strong.

Now, I'd argue that the Star Wars franchise, at least when it comes to feature films, only has 4 truly good movies: The original trilogy, and Rogue One. I have not seen Solo. The Force Awakens was an okay film, well shot, but basically a rehash of the original film. The Prequels weren't precisely good, but they were generally okay "light" viewing with decent action sequences, and they added some interesting lore to the setting. Plus they set the stage for the excellent Clone Wars animated series.

The Last Jedi . . . is just bad in an inexcusable way. It was clearly made by people who don't understand Star Wars and was made to push an agenda, which is why they decided to hide behind the "If you don't like it, you don't like women" defense.

Because anyone whose watched Star Wars and read even the Thrawn Trilogy could tell you why certain things were stupid. I mean, it's stupid geeky stuff, but they don't realize how many plot holes some of their decisions create.That stupid chase scene would have been over in minutes if the Imperials had just used tractor beams, or had one ship make a brief hyperspace jump ahead of the Resistance ship, or used an Interdictor Cruiser, etc. There were rules for hyperspace travel because they wanted it to be convenient without story-breaking. Being able to hyperspace through energy shields, or turn a ship into a hyperspace bomb that can take out an entire fleet, just creates so many plot holes. Why not just hyperspace a star cruiser through the Deathstar? Even if you didn't destroy it, you would have F***ed it up badly.

For that matter, why are you using these slow, ineffective bombers when Rogue One just showed us how effective Y-Wing bombers work?

Why are you having Leia and her Purple Haired Henchwoman acting so smug when they created the entire situation the heroes were in by not answering Poe's reasonable question and having a plan that killed so many people?

The whole point of this movie seemed to be that Star Wars fans should not hold onto the past. They destroyed Luke. They destroyed the X-Wings. Heck, they destroyed the first lightsaber, and had it done by two spoiled kids fighting over it like it was some toy. What an apt analogy for the creators breaking this movie.

So I really hope Solo is good, but I don't have a lot of hope left. I had thought that a lot of Rogue One-esque side stories would be the way to go for a while, while they figure out some way to reboot the last two films, but honestly? Unless they put new people in charge, my hopes are slim.

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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by Batgirl III » Sun May 27, 2018 6:17 am

I was never a fan of Star Wars, honestly, I mean I like laserswords and spaceships as much as any nerd... But, even as a little kid, I could see how hackneyed and phoned in the stories were.

Star Wars was just a farm boy rescuing a princess from the black knight’s tower, with help from the smug-but-secretly-good thief and the kindly-old-wizard. Seriously, it’s the every third story in the big pink Grimm’s Fairy Tales book I got for Christmas when I was four. I’ve never understood just why the rabidly loyal fans were so taken by it.

I mean, to each their own, but I’ve never been able to grok the love people have for the franchise. But, like, I’d totally start a bar brawl to defend the honor of my beloved Batman Family, so I guess I can at least feel empathy if not sympathy.

Marvel Studios has pumped out nineteen MCU films and oodles of tv spinoffs, but only a handful have actually been sequels to each other. They’ve also been very good at mixing up the genres and storytelling techniques used. Iron Man is a very different film in terms of tone, pacing, and plot than Doctor Strange or Daredevil and those are equally different from each other.

Even if you’re being generous, it’s hard not to see that there’s basically two plots that make up like half the movies in the SW franchise: ANH = RotJ = TPM = TFA = Rog1; ESB = AotC = TLJ.

I really cannot blame audiences for shrugging their shoulders at Solo and saying “Meh. I’ll see it when it’s on Amazon Prime in October.”
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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by Chris Brady » Sun May 27, 2018 6:36 am

Excuse me, I have a question: What happened after Return of The Jedi? Why is the Rebellion back? Didn't they win and free the Galaxy?

I have another question: Why did they ignore the STILL ESTABLISHED canon of Hyperspace travel being limited mostly to Hyperlanes? The interdimensional conduits that link star systems together? (Which if you turn off the safety feature so that you can crash into things, the hyperdrive actually stops functioning.)

And how did Hyperspace travel get so easy to track? Or are the Resistance pilots really that stupid? Don't they have smugglers in their ranks?

Um, I have another one: Why is a 'space hippy' a military general? Isn't that like an oxymoron?

What happened to the very serviceable Y-Wings? If the Resistance is so small, how did they get the money to buy new ships?

How did Finn survive getting T-Boned at 200kph (124-ish MPH.)

What happened to the chain of command?

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Re: BriarThrone Reviews: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Post by Ares » Sun May 27, 2018 6:47 am

Batgirl III wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 6:17 am
I was never a fan of Star Wars, honestly, I mean I like laserswords and spaceships as much as any nerd... But, even as a little kid, I could see how hackneyed and phoned in the stories were.

Star Wars was just a farm boy rescuing a princess from the black knight’s tower, with help from the smug-but-secretly-good thief and the kindly-old-wizard. Seriously, it’s the every third story in the big pink Grimm’s Fairy Tales book I got for Christmas when I was four. I’ve never understood just why the rabidly loyal fans were so taken by it.

I mean, to each their own, but I’ve never been able to grok the love people have for the franchise. But, like, I’d totally start a bar brawl to defend the honor of my beloved Batman Family, so I guess I can at least feel empathy if not sympathy.

Marvel Studios has pumped out nineteen MCU films and oodles of tv spinoffs, but only a handful have actually been sequels to each other. They’ve also been very good at mixing up the genres and storytelling techniques used. Iron Man is a very different film in terms of tone, pacing, and plot than Doctor Strange or Daredevil and those are equally different from each other.

Even if you’re being generous, it’s hard not to see that there’s basically two plots that make up like half the movies in the SW franchise: ANH = RotJ = TPM = TFA = Rog1; ESB = AotC = TLJ.

I really cannot blame audiences for shrugging their shoulders at Solo and saying “Meh. I’ll see it when it’s on Amazon Prime in October.”


I'd say it's a bit disingenuous to say that there are only two plots in the entire Star Wars franchise. That'd be like me saying that the plot of over a third of the Marvel films is "arrogant person learns humility,becomes a hero, then defeats a supervillain", while another third is "messed up family unit learns to work together, then defeats a supervillains".

There's no issue in liking or disliking Star Wars, that's not something worth debating. I just don't think you can site the problem with the franchise being oversaturation when said franchise has endured this long, but when other franchises have made more movies in 10 years than Star Wars has in 40.

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