Film franchises that shouldn't have BEEN franchises

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Ares
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Re: Film franchises that shouldn't have BEEN franchises

Post by Ares » Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:43 pm

Scots Dragon wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:06 pm
Ken wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:30 am
Highlander: the TV series, a good idea except for trying to justify both it and the movie co-existing. Roughly akin to saying there were two Hawkeye Pierces at M*A*S*H 4077, one that looked like Donald Sutherland and one who looked like Alan Alda.

Highlander the film series... THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!!!
That one anime film they made was pretty good.
What oddly struck me about that movie were these spider-leg robot troopers that looked like something out of Rifts ... which then made me want to see a Rifts anime/cartoon.

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Re: Film franchises that shouldn't have BEEN franchises

Post by Neo-Paladin » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:28 pm

Ahem...
Matrix?
The first movie was fantastic. It had groundbreaking FX, amazing fight scenes and a very interesting (even if scientifically nonsensical) premise that tied into philosophical ideas like Plato's cave, Buddhism or the Gnosis.
All wrapped up neatly in the end without the need for sequels. Neo is the One. What happens now? Well, anyone could imagine that. He beats the machines and frees mankind. Do we need to see it? Nah. the Hero's Journey is over.

Then, they had to do a second and a third one...and from this need to constantly go further and find ways to challenge a superhuman character were born more and more ridiculous and over-the-top fighting scenes that amounted to a lot of wirework and FX that lost more and more believability. Then, to justify the existence of sequels, they basically say " Yeah, he's the One...but not the first One." Robbing nearly all of Neo's struggles in the first film of meaning. After all, if he hadn't survived, another One would have been created.

And in the third movie we got a totally over-the-top anime-esque fight between him and Smith that, at least to me, had zero tension. And it all ends with basically a simple " good and evil cancel each other out"-message. Which is in itself a decent enough idea, but to me, it seemed to come from out of left field.
And then....instead of a clear perspective like in the end of the first movie, we basically get a shrug. " What's going to happen now? Huh....dunno."
The Matrix, to me, is one of the prime examples of where the sequels actually detract massively from the original film.

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Re: Film franchises that shouldn't have BEEN franchises

Post by Woodclaw » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:24 am

Neo-Paladin wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:28 pm
Ahem...
Matrix?
The first movie was fantastic. It had groundbreaking FX, amazing fight scenes and a very interesting (even if scientifically nonsensical) premise that tied into philosophical ideas like Plato's cave, Buddhism or the Gnosis.
All wrapped up neatly in the end without the need for sequels. Neo is the One. What happens now? Well, anyone could imagine that. He beats the machines and frees mankind. Do we need to see it? Nah. the Hero's Journey is over.

Then, they had to do a second and a third one...and from this need to constantly go further and find ways to challenge a superhuman character were born more and more ridiculous and over-the-top fighting scenes that amounted to a lot of wirework and FX that lost more and more believability. Then, to justify the existence of sequels, they basically say " Yeah, he's the One...but not the first One." Robbing nearly all of Neo's struggles in the first film of meaning. After all, if he hadn't survived, another One would have been created.

And in the third movie we got a totally over-the-top anime-esque fight between him and Smith that, at least to me, had zero tension. And it all ends with basically a simple " good and evil cancel each other out"-message. Which is in itself a decent enough idea, but to me, it seemed to come from out of left field.
And then....instead of a clear perspective like in the end of the first movie, we basically get a shrug. " What's going to happen now? Huh....dunno."
The Matrix, to me, is one of the prime examples of where the sequels actually detract massively from the original film.
I've dedicated a few hours of my life to the issue of the Matrix sequels and I've come to two conclusions.
First, the ending of the first movie was a nice wrap-up, but I kind of suspect it might have also been a cautionary move. In 1999, Matrix was trying to break some new ground (and some was purpoutedly left out, like the issue of Switch's gender) and I guess studios were quite worried it might bomb, hence the decision. Unfortunately this leads straight into issue #2: the stakes.
In the first movie every fight, every moment is about establishing the stakes and the credibility of every character. Just take a look at this sequence:
  1. In the intro we see Trinity taking down on a bunch of cops, as if she was a honest to god superhero, but the minute the Agents enter the picture she is scare. Stake established, the Agents are really dangerous.
  2. When Neo meets the rest of the crew for the first time, Trinity (so far the only established character) looks up at Morpheus. Stakes establish: Morpheus is the top dog.
  3. Neo and Morpheus sparring shows that the old man is tough enough, but the kid has potential.
  4. Morpheus gets utterly mauled by Agent Smith. Stakes establish: holy fu** they were kidding about how dangerous these guys are.
When we get to the final confrontation we have a pretty well established food chain and some real stakes.
In contrast, in Reloaded the stakes are all over the place. Neo is already established being pretty much Superman plus, but he rarely uses his powers. This could have been a really good plot point: Neo has the power, but not the skill to use, making him a walking time bomb. It feels like he's pulling an Inigo Montoya and giving everyone else a sporting chance, which makes no sense. The idea of Smith now being some kind of rogue program that exist partially outside of Matrix, making him immune to Neo's powers, is interesting, but even that doesn't help all that much... because Smith was already curbstomped in the first movie!!!
Revolutions does a smart thing: it moves the stakes to the real world, but this goes nowhere from there. Hell, I remember so little from that movie.
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Ken
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Re: Film franchises that shouldn't have BEEN franchises

Post by Ken » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:25 pm

Spectrum wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:17 pm
There should not have been:
Leonard Part 6
Not exactly a franchise, just a pretend one. Still I applaud you including it.
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Re: Film franchises that shouldn't have BEEN franchises

Post by Bladewind » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:29 pm

You also ignored the possibility that the real world could simply be another "level" of the Matrix but I agree with the comment about the stakes.
Hopefully if they go through with the sequels we discover that it was in fact, just another control and that the real world was actually in the Matrix. But that is wishful thinking I am sure...
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Re: Film franchises that shouldn't have BEEN franchises

Post by Woodclaw » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:27 am

Bladewind wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:29 pm
You also ignored the possibility that the real world could simply be another "level" of the Matrix but I agree with the comment about the stakes.
Hopefully if they go through with the sequels we discover that it was in fact, just another control and that the real world was actually in the Matrix. But that is wishful thinking I am sure...
Be careful that you're going full Mamoru Oshii's Avalon here.
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Re: Film franchises that shouldn't have BEEN franchises

Post by Ares » Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:55 pm

From what I heard about the sequel, Pacific Rim should have stuck to just the one movie.

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Re: Film franchises that shouldn't have BEEN franchises

Post by Bladewind » Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:20 pm

Ares wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:55 pm
From what I heard about the sequel, Pacific Rim should have stuck to just the one movie.
I dunno about that. Was it as good? No.

Was it popcorn fest with giant robots fighting giant monsters? Yes.

The premise itself was quite good. The execution didn't lack, but it had some questionable plot decisions... It pulled a Michael Burnham in that Idris Eldra's adopted daughter from the first had a brother that was never mentioned in the first film - and was the main character of this one which bugged me the entire time...
Thorpocalypse wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:01 pm
Building to be comics "accurate" is different than building to run a PC or building something to challenge a group.
Bladewind's 3ed M&M Builds
The Merge Setting document

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Re: Film franchises that shouldn't have BEEN franchises

Post by Ian Turner » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:45 pm

Bladewind wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:29 pm
You also ignored the possibility that the real world could simply be another "level" of the Matrix but I agree with the comment about the stakes.
Hopefully if they go through with the sequels we discover that it was in fact, just another control and that the real world was actually in the Matrix. But that is wishful thinking I am sure...
Yeah, I thought they were telegraphing that from the start with Agent Smith's speech about 'entire crops were lost' and that the machines had realized that there would always be a small percentage of mankind that would struggle against the construct and had to be allowed to 'break free' and 'wake up' into *an entirely different construct* where they could act out a fight to liberate people from the first construct, all while still asleep in their pods, generating processing power for the machines...

Best way to deal with a rebellion. Subvert it from the ground up.

When Neo controlled the machines 'in the real world,' I really thought that was where they were going, that he had finally realized that he was *still in a construct* and that Zion had been a lie, so he could still use his 'powers' to mess with the program, because he was still inside it.

But no. I still have no idea why he had machine control powers outside the matrix. :)


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Re: Film franchises that shouldn't have BEEN franchises

Post by Davies » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:31 am

My guess is that it ties into what the Architect said about there having been Ones before him, and the way that the Architect and the Oracle are both manipulating Neo. We know that everybody who gets extracted from the Matrix is partly mechanical ... we see where the connections were supposed to go. What if there's more to it, in Neo's case, than that? What if the reason that he can do these things that only machines do is that he is as much machine as he is man?

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